Frequency of Non-Consent and Abuse in BDSM stories.

[Andreas_Kreuz]

I have a strong red flag about non-consent, particularly in BDSM scenarios and stories.

Or to put it positively, I like BDSM stories to be based on pre-negotiated consent, clear boundaries (that may be pushed, but not overrun), the ability to withdraw consent, and have this honoured. I like submission to happen without coercion via threats, lies, power, money, or blackmail.

I have scanned the recently published BDSM stories, and I would say, about 2/3 of them concerning female submissives are strongly non-consensual. But it is made to appear as if the submissive goes along with it and begins to accept or enjoy being dominated or tortured.
I would say that these 2/3 of these stories should be considered rape and removed due to Literotica's content rules against rape.

Are other readers oblivious to this or even seeking out such scenarios? Or is my perception just too rigid?

 

[Britva415]

I have a strong red flag about non-consent, particularly in BDSM scenarios and stories.

Or to put it positively, I like BDSM stories to be based on pre-negotiated consent, clear boundaries (that may be pushed, but not overrun), the ability to withdraw consent, and have this honoured. I like submission to happen without coercion via threats, lies, power, money, or blackmail.

I have scanned the recently published BDSM stories, and I would say, about 2/3 of them concerning female submissives are strongly non-consensual. But it is made to appear as if the submissive goes along with it and begins to accept or enjoy being dominated or tortured.
I would say that these 2/3 of these stories should be considered rape and removed due to Literotica's content rules against rape.

Are other readers oblivious to this or even seeking out such scenarios? Or is my perception just too rigid?

Well, as you describe the scenario, that fits squarely within the rule you’re referencing.

I’m not defending it or saying I’m a fan, just that what you described IS the work-around / loophole / permitted parameters of the rule.

 

[Silvergrizzly31]

I have a strong red flag about non-consent, particularly in BDSM scenarios and stories.

Or to put it positively, I like BDSM stories to be based on pre-negotiated consent, clear boundaries (that may be pushed, but not overrun), the ability to withdraw consent, and have this honoured. I like submission to happen without coercion via threats, lies, power, money, or blackmail.

I have scanned the recently published BDSM stories, and I would say, about 2/3 of them concerning female submissives are strongly non-consensual. But it is made to appear as if the submissive goes along with it and begins to accept or enjoy being dominated or tortured.
I would say that these 2/3 of these stories should be considered rape and removed due to Literotica's content rules against rape.

Are other readers oblivious to this or even seeking out such scenarios? Or is my perception just too rigid?

I would say that if you don't like that type of story, move along. To quote a space wizard "These aren't the droids you are looking for". It very much feels like you are tight roping that kink shaming edge. If not your cup of tea, simply move along

 

[ChuckWolf]

I would say that if you don't like that type of story, move along. To quote a space wizard "These aren't the droids you are looking for". It very much feels like you are tight roping that kink shaming edge. If not your cup of tea, simply move along

Also, my understanding is that there's basically two people running this site and they're probably not going to re-read every single story in the BDSM category to cherry pick the tiny percentage of the "consenting" BDSM stories that fit within the OP's very narrow definition of what is "acceptable".

If they chose or were they forced to do so, it'd just be easier to shut down the ENTIRE BDSM category, as well as the NC/reluctance and Mind Control categories as well.
And then there's all the NC stories that were included in other categories.

In fact, at that point it'd just be easier to shut down the whole site.

 

[Andreas_Kreuz]

I am not so much concerned about the site's policies. There can be non-consent stories, even the "Story of 'O'" falls in the same category. What surprises me is how few stories embrace clear communication about consent and boundaries.
If you read the BDSM stories as someone not being aware of SSC and RACK principles, you would believe, that free submission does not really exist. It must be forced via coercion, blackmail or lies.
In real life though, I mostly encounter submissives who have reflected on their desires, know what they want, and do not need to be coerced into a Bdsm situation.
I have published a story along these lines, and it is doing well. So it does not appear to me that healthy Bdsm is not appreciated.

 

[MtrFmd]

I have a strong red flag about non-consent, particularly in BDSM scenarios and stories.

Or to put it positively, I like BDSM stories to be based on pre-negotiated consent, clear boundaries (that may be pushed, but not overrun), the ability to withdraw consent, and have this honoured. I like submission to happen without coercion via threats, lies, power, money, or blackmail.

I have scanned the recently published BDSM stories, and I would say, about 2/3 of them concerning female submissives are strongly non-consensual. But it is made to appear as if the submissive goes along with it and begins to accept or enjoy being dominated or tortured.
I would say that these 2/3 of these stories should be considered rape and removed due to Literotica's content rules against rape.

Are other readers oblivious to this or even seeking out such scenarios? Or is my perception just too rigid?

It is an interesting and sensitive topic. I certainly think that nobody should ever do anything to anyone against their will. However, this line is more blurry than you may think. I shared my own story (from a sub perspective) here. I hope others will add to it.

 

[Blake_Palafox]

I am not so much concerned about the site's policies. There can be non-consent stories, even the "Story of 'O'" falls in the same category. What surprises me is how few stories embrace clear communication about consent and boundaries.
If you read the BDSM stories as someone not being aware of SSC and RACK principles, you would believe, that free submission does not really exist. It must be forced via coercion, blackmail or lies.
In real life though, I mostly encounter submissives who have reflected on their desires, know what they want, and do not need to be coerced into a Bdsm situation.
I have published a story along these lines, and it is doing well. So it does not appear to me that healthy Bdsm is not appreciated.

When I write BDSM, I only do it with full consent with safewords and negotiation. I think that's fun. It's an interesting challenge to get across the emotions of the experience while acknowledging the role-play going on.

But, even in real life, the illusion of coercion is often part of the fantasy. Since a written story is complete fantasy, it makes sense that people extend the fantasy they are playing in real life. Basically, to write the narrative of the scene instead of a "behind the scenes" of the scene. I don't think BDSM fiction has to be about the real BDSM community, and I don't think it has to model proper safety precautions.

Like, obviously I don't want people to do things against my will in real life (I fantasize about it, but know it would be horrible), but I can appreciate a story about power actually being taken. Because I have dark desires about being forced to do things that I can't experience in real life safely.

 

[Britva415]

I am not so much concerned about the site's policies

Is that a back-pedal or ... ?

Just asking because you originally were saying 2/3 of BDSM stories (or at least the NC ones) were against site rules.

So it seemed like you were concerned. Maybe it was just an offhand aside comment and not part of your main intention.

 

[MtrFmd]

When I write BDSM, I only do it with full consent with safewords and negotiation. I think that's fun. It's an interesting challenge to get across the emotions of the experience while acknowledging the role-play going on.

But, even in real life, the illusion of coercion is often part of the fantasy. Since a written story is complete fantasy, it makes sense that people extend the fantasy they are playing in real life. Basically, to write the narrative of the scene instead of a "behind the scenes" of the scene. I don't think BDSM fiction has to be about the real BDSM community, and I don't think it has to model proper safety precautions.

Like, obviously I don't want people to do things against my will in real life (I fantasize about it, but know it would be horrible), but I can appreciate a story about power actually being taken. Because I have dark desires about being forced to do things that I can't experience in real life safely.

Exactly. I have a lot of dark thoughts which really excite me but I would probably find them rather traumatizing if they happened to me in real life.

I find it fascinating how this works. How we can drawn into something which we would actually find horrible. Any (armchair) psychologists here who can explain this?

 

[Andreas_Kreuz]

that a back-pedal or ... ?

That is a valid question. But no, its not a back-pedal. I don't want to see stories cancelled for breaking rules I did not make and I do not have the job of enforcing them.

I would just be happy with a tag like "doubtful consent" which at least one other story site has.

I just noted that there might be a double standard when it comes to BDSM stories and consent.

My issue is with the abundance of authors and their readers of non consentual BDSM stories.

Coercion is an frequent aspect of BDSM play. But for me to enjoy reading about it, it must be backed by consent on the meta-level.

And I was just surprised that I seem to be somewhat alone with this attitude.

 

[Andreas_Kreuz]

I find it fascinating how this works. How we can drawn into something which we would actually find horrible.

I call this the BDSM paradox. Loving something one normally hates.

Or from a dom view, behaving in a way that is against my view of civilised behaviour, but still enjoying it.

And I consistently fail to explain this paradox to non-kinksters.

 

[Blake_Palafox]

That is a valid question. But no, its not a back-pedal. I don't want to see stories cancelled for breaking rules I did not make and I do not have the job of enforcing them.

I would just be happy with a tag like "doubtful consent" which at least one other story site has.

I just noted that there might be a double standard when it comes to BDSM stories and consent.

My issue is with the abundance of authors and their readers of non consentual BDSM stories.

Coercion is an frequent aspect of BDSM play. But for me to enjoy reading about it, it must be backed by consent on the meta-level.

And I was just surprised that I seem to be somewhat alone with this attitude.

I think it's this:

Some people, when they see the category BDSM think, "This is going to model what I experience as BDSM in the real world. Gotta use your safe words and aftercare!"

Other people think, "Since we called it BDSM up front, we all know this is just a fantasy. I can dispense with safety precautions because no one will actually be hurt if I do so."

I think that's the divide. I think both attitudes can result in great stories.

I will say the primary reason I don't do the second kind when I write is because I think it would scare some readers, and that wouldn't be my intent.

 

[OralAllOver]

I have a strong red flag about non-consent, particularly in BDSM scenarios and stories.

Or to put it positively, I like BDSM stories to be based on pre-negotiated consent, clear boundaries (that may be pushed, but not overrun), the ability to withdraw consent, and have this honoured. I like submission to happen without coercion via threats, lies, power, money, or blackmail.

I have scanned the recently published BDSM stories, and I would say, about 2/3 of them concerning female submissives are strongly non-consensual. But it is made to appear as if the submissive goes along with it and begins to accept or enjoy being dominated or tortured.
I would say that these 2/3 of these stories should be considered rape and removed due to Literotica's content rules against rape.

Are other readers oblivious to this or even seeking out such scenarios? Or is my perception just too rigid?

Chillax, baby
Communication can be subtle, uncertainties clarified with experience

 

[MtrFmd]

I think it's this:

Some people, when they see the category BDSM think, "This is going to model what I experience as BDSM in the real world. Gotta use your safe words and aftercare!"

Other people think, "Since we called it BDSM up front, we all know this is just a fantasy. I can dispense with safety precautions because no one will actually be hurt if I do so."

I think that's the divide. I think both attitudes can result in great stories.

I will say the primary reason I don't do the second kind when I write is because I think it would scare some readers, and that wouldn't be my intent.

I'm working on a rather dark non-con story and plan to solve this with a disclaimer at the beginning. Everyone should know what they're getting into and that this is fantasy land.

 

[subchristopher]

I think it's this:

Some people, when they see the category BDSM think, "This is going to model what I experience as BDSM in the real world. Gotta use your safe words and aftercare!"

Other people think, "Since we called it BDSM up front, we all know this is just a fantasy. I can dispense with safety precautions because no one will actually be hurt if I do so."

I think that's the divide. I think both attitudes can result in great stories.

I will say the primary reason I don't do the second kind when I write is because I think it would scare some readers, and that wouldn't be my intent.

There’s also an element of fantasy going on in real life. If I’m submitting to a woman in an environment with proper communication, boundaries in place, safe words, etc., I know I’m safe. But at least some of the time (hopefully most of it), in my mind, I’m not actually in that well-negotiated environment. I’m fantasizing that I’m actually her slave, that this is all very real, and that I have no choice but to obey her and submit to her.

Taking that to the story environment, I’m guessing many people write the actual fantasy, what’s being imagined while actually in a safe play space. Since it’s just a story, there’s no need for the responsible precautions. And many readers aren’t looking for stories of responsible play, something they could go experience for real. They’re looking for stories that throw them into the kind of experience they know they can’t, or shouldn’t have in real life.

 

[Blake_Palafox]

There’s also an element of fantasy going on in real life. If I’m submitting to a woman in an environment with proper communication, boundaries in place, safe words, etc., I know I’m safe. But at least some of the time (hopefully most of it), in my mind, I’m not actually in that well-negotiated environment. I’m fantasizing that I’m actually her slave, that this is all very real, and that I have no choice but to obey her and submit to her.

Taking that to the story environment, I’m guessing many people write the actual fantasy, what’s being imagined while actually in a safe play space. Since it’s just a story, there’s no need for the responsible precautions. And many readers aren’t looking for stories of responsible play, something they could go experience for real. They’re looking for stories that throw them into the kind of experience they know they can’t, or shouldn’t have in real life.

Yeah. I have some very close friends in BDSM who HATE fictional media that doesn't model consent and stuff properly, but I've always thought that the point of fiction was to give us experiences we couldn't normally have. Like, for instance, action and adventure stories in which the characters kill people.

I have VERY dark fantasies (like being violently raped by other men, which I even dream about sometimes) and I'm loath to write a story like that just because I know that is beyond the pale for people. I'm a pacifist and very gentle and submissive in real life. I worry about upsetting people who have real life trauma getting hurt by a story like that, but I guess that is what content warnings are about.

 

[PleasureDaddy]

I think there’s a presumption that within the fictional framework of the story the participants discussed everything prior and got their std panel completed as well.

 

[Andreas_Kreuz]

Ok, I learned something from this thread. I had assumed that Non-Consentual stories were based on the assumption of writers that submissives don't really want to submit and must be forced against their will. The feedback form @Blake_Palafox, @subchristopher, @MtrFmd showed me that there are fantasies to take BDSM beyond the realms of SSC. I can relate to that.
I still prefer SSC/RACK stories. For me looking at stories from a dom point of view, a dom that lies and abuses and breaks consent is just no character to associate with.

 

[Thomas_Hardy]

Interesting discussion.

Not sure the following aspect received the attention it may deserve: writing a story and recording a fantasy may be two different genres, with different obligations to the reader. If I record a fantasy, to a neutral 'recorder' say, then there may be a duty to myself and or to the recorder to cpnvey my fantasy just as it occured to me in my minds eye. Whereas if I understand myself as the author of a story then I would not really be able to do away with the notion of an implied reader and resulting from that, certain ponsibilities perhaps toward that reader. ANd that may include some reflection on the effect of of playing down or omitting the C in CNC. Similar in extremis, to absenting say condoms and other measures that to omit IRL would be regarded as irresponsible or even illegal depending on context.

 

[MtrFmd]

I think it might be worth to clarify what exactly we're concerned with. It seems to me that there are multiple layers and perspectives discussed in this thread and each one requires a different response:

1. "Too many" stories of a particular kind and a possible mismatch with the demand on the reader side.
2. Not informing the reader well enough about the nature of a story and what to expect.

3. Related to 2: not warning readers sufficiently of particularly hard content that might trigger some individuals.

4. A concern about a potentially harmful effects of NC stories—not just individually but also more broadly on a societal level.

5. Violation of site rules or even laws.


There might be more but that's just what came to my mind right now. I think it would help to differentiate these when we discuss this.

I would address these like this:

1. I don't see this as a problem. On an individual level I find my personal niche very poorly represented here, but nothing to be done about it. I just have to cope with the fact that I'm a weirdo and not many share my kink.

2. Every author has an interest to find the right audience. Tagging, categories and an author's note at the beginning will help but this remains challenging, especially when a story crosses different categories.

3. I think a good strategy on 2.) should address this sufficiently.

4. This is my biggest concern and probably also the most difficult to address. To be clear, I find NC IRL absolutely horrible. It is a huge problem and not enough is done to fight it. I think we can all agree on that and who doesn't shouldn't be here.
That being said, we have to acknowledge that there are fantasies that are somewhat detached from reality. It's entertainment, not documentation. In many cases NC fantasies are also driven by the "victim" which is ethically less problematic than when they come from the other side.

5. We have to follow site rules and certainly laws. Not sure if they're always clear enough though.

4.) is a difficult subject that I'd love to dive more into, but it's very different from the other perspectives in this thread. For a targeted discussion it would be useful to separate these different levels.

 

[KindredFlame]

I have a strong red flag about non-consent, particularly in BDSM scenarios and stories.

Or to put it positively, I like BDSM stories to be based on pre-negotiated consent, clear boundaries (that may be pushed, but not overrun), the ability to withdraw consent, and have this honoured. I like submission to happen without coercion via threats, lies, power, money, or blackmail.

I have scanned the recently published BDSM stories, and I would say, about 2/3 of them concerning female submissives are strongly non-consensual. But it is made to appear as if the submissive goes along with it and begins to accept or enjoy being dominated or tortured.
I would say that these 2/3 of these stories should be considered rape and removed due to Literotica's content rules against rape.

Are other readers oblivious to this or even seeking out such scenarios? Or is my perception just too rigid?

I do try to place a disclaimer ate the start of the story saying that all give their permission and consent to any and all activities within the story.

 

[liqueur]

I have a strong red flag about non-consent, particularly in BDSM scenarios and stories.... Are other readers oblivious to this or even seeking out such scenarios? Or is my perception just too rigid?

I share and support your feelings. I gave up on BDSM-tagged stories quite a long time ago. Primarily for this reason, along with the corollary reason that most of the male writers really knew little to nothing about actual BDSM (let alone the notion of consent), and were writing to exercise their misogyny and aggression. Not anything I cared to support.

That said, I should repeat that this was some years ago. I'm hoping that things have improved a bit. You say 2 out of 3 are nonconsensual. Grim as this is to say, I think that probably is an improvement, because back then I'd have said it was pretty close to 3 out of 3.

 

[liqueur]

we have to acknowledge that there are fantasies that are somewhat detached from reality. It's entertainment, not documentation.

In a perfect world, that would be so. Unfortunately, to many rapists and abusers, just like incestuous pedophiles, every story read can be one more bit of food for their obsession; every bit of positive feedback can be received as one more increment of permission.

For the person who has been abused or used, writing stories like this can be cathartic. There are many stories along these lines that I would like to write— but I never will, for these reasons.

 

[KindredFlame]

Everyone to their own. But if you don’t like them don’t read or write them.

 

[Britva415]

Unfortunately, to many rapists and abusers, just like incestuous pedophiles, every story read can be one more bit of food for their obsession; every bit of positive feedback can be received as one more increment of permission.

I don’t see it as any different from an action movie which features guns - or, maybe more to the point, psychological crime drama movies with sick killers out there murdering. The blame for perpetrators of gun violence lies 100% squarely with the perpetrators. It isn’t about, and it isn’t because of, the stories on the screen.