Free?

[CandiCame]

Here's another list just based on federal taxes paid to the federal government, because this is so goddamn stupid, so contrary to reality, that I can't fucking deal with it.

Do some fucking math. california could buy and sell any other state in the union. California is paying for the federal programs in Kentucky. I don't shit where I eat. I don't try to piss people off who are actively helping me out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_tax_revenue_by_state

California could buy and sell my ass THIRTEEN TIMES.

Edit: Stupid. It's so fucking stupid.

Certain posters on this board want to use California to say that their many socialist programs somehow cost the state money, but when they say that they are proving socialists RIGHT. Those programs HELP the economy, and if you can do fucking math you can see that.

So goddamn stupid. It's a level of stupidity that does piss me off.

Math is the universal language. You can't fucking twist numbers like that. EVEN PER CAPITA, LIKE EVEN IF WE TAKE POPULATION OUT AND MAKE IT PERSON TO PERSON.

Jesus Christ how fucking stupid can you be?

Edit: Oh, and also, if y'all hadn't decided to cut corporate taxes it'd be even higher. That's been the steepest drop in taxation, not just in Cali but in EVERY state. That's where we're hemorrhaging money:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Share_of_Federal_Revenue_from_Different_Tax_Sources_**8Individual**C_Payroll**C_and_Corporate**9_1950_-_2010.gif/400px-Share_of_Federal_Revenue_from_Different_Tax_Sources_**8Individual**C_Payroll**C_and_Corporate**9_1950_-_2010.gif

Take a fucking finance class.

https://americansfortaxfairness.org/wp-content/uploads/Capture4-1.png

Stop with these ass-backwards tax cuts. That's where we're losing money. If we stopped subsidizing JUST Wal-mart, no other corporation, just Wal-mart, we could pay for socialized healthcare for every state in the union.

Edit: I added this chart, specifically, so y'all could see it's not even a trickle down thing. It doesn't even make the corporations that much more money. They get a 16% increase while the government gets a 44% loss. This shit does NOTHING and helps NO ONE. It JUST costs us money. That's all it does.

So quit bitching about made up bullshit and lobby for tax reform.

 

[CandiCame]

Also there's no such thing as a "semi-valid social security number". Social security numbers can't be invalidated.

You might be thinking of a taxpayer ID, like a ITIN or something, and that's what she likely read about. People with a non-citizen ITIN aren't allowed to take any benefits, so they can't get child tax credits, EIC or anything like that. They can only pay, so yes, she was absolutely correct, those folks pay more than citizens would with the same exact information. The system is set up against them, because for some reason we collectively decided, "Fuck um".

This fucks you up if you're a citizen married to somebody like that, too, because fuck you. It's one of those things that really pisses me off. You can't even like-

For example, they take social security out of your taxes, but you yourself are not eligible for social security. You are paying into an insurance system that you can't draw out of. It's fucked and it needs to be changed.

We need MAJOR tax reform in this country.

Edit: Also, I get that I'm the only fucking person in the world who reads tax code and state budgetary reports for fun but like... y'all don't do that and then wonder why a pack of smokes is $10. I get that people think this shit is boring but it's fucking important.

 

[oralaccents]

How quintessentially American is California?

The crown jewel of the USA.

And one day, it will end in destruction.

 

[oggbashan]

In the UK there has been discussion recently about whether the National Health Serice should continue charging foreigners for medical services.

Some cannot pay, or can't be traced after leaving the UK. Many are on travel insurance and there is no difficulty in charging their insurance company.

But the cost of chasing for payments is considerable for what is a very small part of the NHS' spending. Is it worth it?

Opponents say that not charging will lead to health tourism and an increased cost to taxpayers. Those for abolishing the fees say that taxpayers' contributions allocated to treating foreigners are so minimal that no one would notice the difference.

The debate continues...

 

[Que]

Ok, sure. Give away MORE money and your State thrives. That makes perfect sense.

WEALTHY people paying a LOT of money in taxes is not people living below the poverty line paying taxes. Calufornia had more citizens below the poverty line than any other State, and it is not because the poor are paying taxes.

 

[CandiCame]

How quintessentially American is California?

The crown jewel of the USA.

And one day, it will end in destruction.

I mean, the way we're goin it's gonna be underwater and then everybody who bitched about it is gonna be pissed as hell when that money's suddenly gone.

Cali actually has a bunch of green-based tax incentives because like... seriously global climate change is gonna fuck um up. They're both tropical and right on the water, so like... remember when half the state was on fire and the other was underwater because of the hurricane?

California actually remembers that and is actively trying to change it, but they can't do it alone.

Like literally: simultaneously underwater and on fire in 2018 and STILL making more money than any other state in the union. It's on a fault line, too, that place is a fuckin mess and still whooping ass. Fucking death raining from the sky like somebody pissed off an old testament god. Y'all realize you ain't supposed to have four hurricanes and also hellfire in one year, right? Like that's literally a sign of the apocalypse?

It just kinda bothers me that we're all living in a late-capitalist dystopian apocalypse and a lot of people are just cool with it.

Also, again, let's tie this back to finance- four hurricanes and half the state on fire but Que's worried about the maternity ward. People in the ER have been half crushed and burned, living in red cross tents and hoping to god their dogs ain't been crisped, but let's focus on his made up statistic about not wanting to pay for babies.

Stupid. Incomprehensibly stupid.

 

[CandiCame]

Ok, sure. Give away MORE money and your State thrives. That makes perfect sense.

WEALTHY people paying a LOT of money in taxes is not people living below the poverty line paying taxes. Calufornia had more citizens below the poverty line than any other State, and it is not because the poor are paying taxes.

Because they have it to give away. GDP is a measurement of how much excess money you have, you incomprehensible dumbass.

They're being taxed so highly because their income is so high. They're not giving that money away any more than I give money away when I pay my taxes, it's going to the federal government to pay for federal programs which are SUPPOSED to be funneled back into programs for the American people. It ain't Cali's fault some dumbass wants to spend it on a wall because he's scared of the ghost of Genghis Khan.

It's amazing to me that you would both treat taxation as giving away money out of the goodness of your heart, when in your last post you seemed to treat it as a responsibility. Pick one.

Edit: Also, Cali's nowhere CLOSE to having the most people living below the poverty line. Even a little bit. That's Mississippi.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/us-states-by-poverty-rate.html

 

[Que]

They are not "committing fraud."

If a woman is in labor and goes into any emergency room they deliver the baby. No one asks about citizenship. Other than when they try to figure out who to collect from and in order to collect from Medicaid one of the questions that they ask gives that away and it's based on the fact whether or not the person has a valid social security number. When the person is found not to have a valid social security number it is presumed that the person is an undocumented worker and they categorize that in their billing to Medicare as such.

This does not count for births and other services that are associated with various legitimate Social Security numbers that turn out to be actual fraud because of social security number and name does not belong to the actual person who received the services.

https://californiahealthline.org/morning-breakout/births-to-undocumented-immigrants-cost-medical-400m-annually/

No combination of taxes paid by impoverished undocumented workers equals four hundred million dollars a year in California.

 

[CandiCame]

They are not "committing fraud."

If a woman is in labor and goes into any emergency room they deliver the baby. No one asks about citizenship. Other than when they try to figure out who to collect from and in order to collect from Medicaid one of the questions that they ask gives that away and it's based on the fact whether or not the person has a valid social security number. When the person is found not to have a valid social security number it is presumed that the person is an undocumented worker and they categorize that in their billing to Medicare as such.

This does not count for us and other services that are associated with various legitimate Social Security numbers that turn out to be actual fraud because of social security number and name does not belong to the actual person who received the services.

https://californiahealthline.org/morning-breakout/births-to-undocumented-immigrants-cost-medical-400m-annually/

No combination of taxes paid by impoverished undocumented workers equals four hundred million dollars a year in California.

Medicare doesn't even have a way to bill that. Medicare uses the EDI system. There's no way to bill medicare without a taxpayer ID. It won't go in the system.

Also, that article says one fifth, not one third, and specifically targets the program Medi-Cal, which isn't a federal program at all, and as we can see from all the numbers I already gave you, their state socialist programs ain't hurting them none so let them do it.

You don't know what you're talking about. You can't even keep your numbers consistent from one post to the next so what the fuck am I supposed to do with that?

Edit: And also they pay WAY MORE than $400,000. It's about $1.53 BILLION, with a B. https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-tax-contributions-in-california-county-by-county-analysis/

 

[Que]

Medical is Medicaid, not Medicare

Hospitals can (and do) seek (and receive) reimbursement for all indigent patients.

That's where the figure of $400,000,000 paid out by Medi-Cal for births to undocumented aliens comes from.

Medicaid (called Medi-Cal in California) is partially funded by a "boatload of Federal money" to quote Elena Kagen.

 

[CandiCame]

Medical is Medicaid, not Medicare

Hospitals can (and do) seek (and receive) reimbursement for all indigent patients.

That's where the figure of $400,000,000 paid out by Medical for births to undocumented aliens comes from.

My dude, my man, my bro, your source SPECIFIES the funds were collected from Medi-Cal, a state program, and as you can see the source I provided, that $400K ain't a drop in the bucket compared to what they pay in.

Act like you got some sense.

 

[CandiCame]

Medical is Medicaid, not Medicare

Hospitals can (and do) seek (and receive) reimbursement for all indigent patients.

That's where the figure of $400,000,000 paid out by Medi-Cal for births to undocumented aliens comes from.

Medicaid (called Medi-Cal in California) is partially funded by a "boatload of Federal money" to quote Elena Kagen.

Yeah, upon review about 2/3 of Medi-Cal's programs are eligible to receive federal benefits. That's as interesting as it is irreverent, given that, once again, you're trying to convince me that $400K is somehow a bigger number than $1.53 billion.

Edit: Hell, you know what, let's take that WHOLE $400K out of Cali's federal tax payments.

Look at that, they'd STILL pay more in than any other state in the union. It wouldn't even change the numbers that you cut off when you estimate.

Y'all are just mean. To literal newborns.

Like I said before, get the fuck outta my species with that bullshit.

 

[CandiCame]

Also, not for nothing but how the fuck is Cali delivering babies for next to nothing?

When we had Bitesize it was over $30,000. Five years ago.

I just crunched the numbers and in the last fisical year Cali had 471,658 babies delivered. A fifth of that is 94,332 babies.

If we split that $400K among those 94,332 kids that means that the state of California can deliver a baby for less than $5. Specifically for $4.24.

HOW? How the fuck? Do they not even put you in the hospital? Do they just have you squat and then some random dude stands there to catch?

What the fuck are they doing in California?

Try it yourself, look at the live recorded births, divide it by five.

Take $400,000 and divide it among 94332

It's four dollars and twenty four cents.

How the fuck?

Like ok, 1: Yeah, you shouldn't be bitching about that but 2: like physically HOW are they doing that?

You can't get a goddamn big mac meal for what they're spending to birth a whole human person.

Edit: Also I probably shouldn't have taken this from live births because I assumed that there were no stillbirths and that's not fesable. So consider this a HIGH estimate. They would actually spend less than this, I just don't want to go look up the stats for stillbirths because I'm hungry and my kid is gonna get up in a minute and I gotta make breakfast.

 

[Que]

"California's taxes" =/= "Taxes paid by illegal aliens" which is the subject under discussion here. You are trying to argue that illegal aliens pay more in taxes than they consume in Services which is not true. Not even close to true.

 

[oralaccents]

Make everything User Pay, that’ll separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[CandiCame]

"California's taxes" =/= "Taxes paid by illegal aliens" which is the subject under discussion here. You are trying to argue that illegal aliens pay more in taxes than they consume in Services which is not true. Not even close to true.

Read the link. That number is specifically for how much undocumented workers pay in taxes. The $1.53 billion. We're talking apples to apples.

Edit: It even breaks it down by region, and every taxable district could cover those births by itself, using what was paid in ONLY by undocumented folks.

You can't bullshit numbers, my man. This is just you being wrong about something.

I still can't figure out how Cali makes births so fucking cheap. That seems really sketch to me. Like if you want to attack anything in this conversation for me it would have to be the source you link, because my numbers make logical sense. But that doesn't.

I actually googled it because I couldn't believe they could do that so cheaply, but other sources say the same thing. It really does cost them that little.

I just can't figure out how.

 

[Que]

1.5 billion divided by 4 million is $375 per person.

Apparently in your accounting classes they didn't teach you about cost-shifting. Everybody pays for those illegal aliens all that these hospitals are able to collect is four hundred million dollars. No doctor or Hospital prefers medical patients because the rate of reimbursement is so low. The hospital's point of view on this is it's better to get four hundred million dollars out of Medi-Cal then nothing at all.

 

[CandiCame]

1.5 billion divided by 4 million is $375 per person.

Ok. So you're saying that there are 4 million undocumented workers in California and they're each paying $375 in taxes.

Then one of them gives birth and it costs $4.24.

$4.24 is a smaller number than $375. You see how that works?

Weird that the Public Policy Institute of California is telling me 2.6 million, but even if we go by your higher estimate, $375 is MORE than $4.24. By a pretty good margin.

 

[CandiCame]

1.5 billion divided by 4 million is $375 per person.

Apparently in your accounting classes they didn't teach you about cost-shifting. Everybody pays for those illegal aliens all that these hospitals are able to collect is four hundred million dollars. No doctor or Hospital prefers medical patients because the rate of reimbursement is so low. The hospital's point of view on this is it's better to get four hundred million dollars out of Medi-Cal then nothing at all.

Four hundred million?

Ok that makes sense. I thought you said $400,000.

Yeah that's gonna be $424, which is about what they charge in other first world countries. So that actually makes perfect sense.

 

[CandiCame]

Let's crunch those numbers with the real data then.

If we take the numbers from PPIC, that's 2.6 million people paying $1.53 billion in taxes.

That's an average payment of $588.47 per person on their federal taxes.

If Medi-Cal is paying out $424, per birth, then breaking it down by that individual mother, she is taking less than she's spending.

Especially when we consider that, at most, that birth was only being funded by the feds 2/3 of the way, because that's what the yearly budgitary report from Medi-Cal I read said, so she's actually only taking out $282. 6(repeating, but let's go 67 cents, you know, rounding up).

Any way you slice it, that individual person is taking out less than they put in for that birth.

And if we do it as a collective, you're still stuck trying to convince me that $1.53 Billion is a smaller number than $400 Million.

 

[CandiCame]

1.5 billion divided by 4 million is $375 per person.

Apparently in your accounting classes they didn't teach you about cost-shifting. Everybody pays for those illegal aliens all that these hospitals are able to collect is four hundred million dollars. No doctor or Hospital prefers medical patients because the rate of reimbursement is so low. The hospital's point of view on this is it's better to get four hundred million dollars out of Medi-Cal then nothing at all.

Also, doctors at hospitals are salaried. They don't give a fuck and have been very vocal about the fact that socialized medicine would make their job a hell of a lot easier because it wouldn't be so much paperwork and they could gut their billing department.

They don't do the billing. The billing department does that. It means fuck all to doctors. And most doctors do pro bono work anyway. Weird how people who dedicate their lives to helping people might not be in it for the fucking money.

Edit: I can't link the study I was referencing, because I realized I had to log in to view it, but I can site it: Cunningham PJ, Frossman JM, St. Peter RF, Lesser, CS. Managed care and physician's provision of charity care.

I just feel like maybe doctors might be pissed at your assertion that they're in it for the money.

 

[Que]

Sounds like you have it all figured out.

Shhhh!

Don't let all 9f the countries with immigration standards know what a sweet deal we have importing uneducated and unskilled taxpayers. Who knew how lucrative it could be?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Watching people on this board shit on California is buckwild to me because that's one of those things you will not see anywhere else on the internet. That's that kind of dumbassery that is exclusive to this board.

California can buy and sell your ass. If California didn't even have the breadbasket, if ALL they had was the entertainment industry- they could still buy and sell your ass.

Disneyland alone could buy and sell your ass.

Why don't you move there and find out???

Bet you wont....LOL

 

[BotanyBoy]

Sounds like you have it all figured out.

Shhhh!

Don't let all 9f the countries with immigration standards know what a sweet deal we have importing uneducated and unskilled taxpayers. Who knew how lucrative it could be?

It's like the left doesn't understand if you want any shot at a functioning welfare economy (LOL) you have to at least control your immigration.

"Progressive" folks are just beyond loony with TDS.

 

[CandiCame]

Sounds like you have it all figured out.

Shhhh!

Don't let all 9f the countries with immigration standards know what a sweet deal we have importing uneducated and unskilled taxpayers. Who knew how lucrative it could be?

I googled 9f and got English trains? So England, I guess?

My point is, yes, it does improve the economy, but my ORIGINAL point, since one of us here seems to have lost our original goal, was that your post about how taxes worked aggravated me with the level of lies and stupidity in it.

But most countries actually do KNOW how capitalism works and that you need a big pool of unskilled labor because labor is a product under capitalism.

But most countries already know what I'm telling you, particularly in the first world. It's pretty elementary economics, which is why it's buckwild to me that people keep getting it wrong. The fact that it's this easy to prove is why it pissed me off. You HAVE to lie about reality in order to make it not work; you can't just fudge the numbers. It's not that you assertion was wrong, it's that it was laughably wrong to the point that it had to transcend stupidity and move into malice. That's why it pissed me off.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/02/16/upshot/comparing-immigration-policies-across-countries.html

You know who's got a hell of an economy? Switzerland. And as you can see from the chart I just listed, they'll apparently just let anybody in, for no particular reason. 26.5% of their population is made up of immigrants.

That's just an example. But the fact that they're one of the strongest economies in the world despite not seeming to give a fuck about anything has always been weird to me. Like their national motto seems to be, "No fucks given". They're real big on that neutrality thing. Second highest GDP per capita in the world (behind Luxembourg) and I can't off the top of my head even tell you what the Swiss do for a living. Make chocolate? Heavy Metal?

So yeah. Everybody except us seems to know that this works.

It's so weird to me when other Americans act like just because we've not figured something out nobody else knows it.

Kinda like when we have our daily school shooting headlines in the whole rest of the planet read, " 'No way to prevent this,' say lawmakers from only place where it regularly happens."

Your original assertion, that undocumented immigrants cost more than they provide, is just wrong. And this post basically says, "You're right and I'm pissed about it".

And it extra pisses me off because we bill ourselves as a land of immigrants, as a melting pot. We put up fucking plaques telling people to come here for asylum, and then they get here we put them in fucking concentration camps. That's not cool of us. You can't ask for huddled masses and then get pissed when you get huddled masses.

I am so fucking tired of people asking for shit and then getting pissed off when they get it. I'm sick of the entitled bullshit. It wears people out.

We have to live in the real world. We have to base our beliefs on that which is evidently true. You live in an age where google is a thing, where people can look up the shit you say and call you out on your bullshit. It's annoying.