Free speech and Censorship vs Editing

[monster666]

Taken from another thread and originally posted by MissTaken


quote:
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Originally posted by WillowPuss
... (sorry - borrowed from Monty Python)

With the greatest of respect to all concerned ... don't you think this has gone on long enough?

I am sure many are secretly rejoicing the fact that we are in-fighting on this forum. Lets not give them further satisfaction.
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Ditto!

Sorry, I disagree on this one.

Sometimes, it's better to just back away and let things cool down on their own, and sometimes a fight is worth fighting.

In the process of dealing with this rabble-rousing, important questions have been raised that I don't feel have been adequately addressed. If we don't resolve these issues and come to an understanding - even if we don't agree - then these will be a buttons that can be pushed forevermore.

What is censorship?

What is free speech?

Have mods here on this board engaged in censorship that flies in the face of the ideal of free speech that we all perceive as our right, and in the face of the operators of Literotica? Or have they edited responsibly to protect the integrity of a forum they have been charged to moderate?

If censoring and editing for content is the same, then is moderating by definition also censoring?

Is someone who is being deliberately disruptive on a board violating the rights of others to peacefully assemble?

Those are my questions, and here are my thoughts:

My opinion is that although we do have the right to express our opinions in whatever proper appropriate forum is at our disposal, we do not have the right to say whatever we want, whenever and wherever we want, no matter how passionately we feel about a thing.

I don't have the right to walk into a mosque, stand up and loudly proclaim all muslims terrorists. I'd be arrested for disturbing the peace. (For the record, this is just an example and I don't feel this way about muslims.)

However, as a non-muslim, I have the right to peacefully demonstrate my distain for muslim terrorism at a reasonable distance from the mosque, so that they might enjoy liberties like the right to peacefully assemble and their right to religious freedom.

I don't think anyone's personal rights supercede anyone else's. One person's right of free speech does not override and cannot - must not - conflict with other rights of other individuals or groups. That is not to say that the individual doesn't have the right to say what they want, but it does imply that the subject of criticism has the right not to listen. We have the right to assemble with others of like mind peacefully. We have the right to have ideological freedom and not be harrassed.

How is the board any different? I don't see that it is. So perhaps unregistered could have exercised his right to free speech in a place where it wouldn't fly in the face of the good people of this forum's right to assemble peacefully.

I think censorship is done by the state or some authority other than and without consent of the editor appointed by the proprietors of whatever forum is being censored.

Free speech is not a right to exercise pure maliciousness, and an appointed moderator editing maliciousness out of a forum is not exercising censorship.

Unregistered absolutely has the right to start his own forum much like Lit and post whatever opinion he might have without interference. Unregistered does not have the right to go into someone else's house and raise hell.

After reading subsequent posts by Unregistered where it was admitted the purpose of the Unregistered posts was purely to wreak havoc, I think Risia did the right thing removing the threads. I hope she can do the same thing next time, protecting our right to peaceful assembly and our right to free speech, unfettered by the interference of those who would do us harm.

 

[cellis]

My thoughts are they we put this forum into the very capable hands of Risia Skye, cymbidia and Writer Dom for a reason.

First, it was their idea and they have been here longer than just about anyone and cym did start the original thread.

Secondly, while they may all have different political bents, they all have the best interest of all of us at heart.

I respect the three of them so much for being will to take the time to monitor this forum.

I understand the arguments on both sides of the censorship coin, however we did agree that this forum would have certain rules. Laurel is aware of the guidelines we set for ourselves to protect the integrity of this forum. Believe me when I tell you that if there was a problem with those guidelines, Laurel would have never agreed to them (sorry Laurel I don't mean to talk for you, but I do feel that I understand your position on censorship).

I personally do not want to wade through a lot of posts about things that have no bearing to what we are about here. They can post that stuff on the GB or the How To board and there is plenty of it over there, or they can go somewhere else. Just don't post garbage here!

I like coming here and knowing that people I know and respect have been here posting. I have grown so much from the information that I received here. I have met wonderful people on line and in real life from this board. I have shared the and sorrows of those who post here.

There is a certain level of maturity of those who come here seeking and I would like to see that remain intact and to see this forum continue to grow from the influx of new people. It is so gratify to see new people come here and be comfortable. I can remember when there was only a handful of us posting at any given time. I don't want to see that change.

So back to my original point... A certain level of censorship is necessary here to continue the growth of this forum. I look to the moderators to continue the fine job they have been doing. I thank them for having the courage to care for all of us.

 

[monster666]

So back to my original point... A certain level of censorship is necessary here to continue the growth of this forum. I look to the moderators to continue the fine job they have been doing. I thank them for having the courage to care for all of us.

I agree, except that I don't think editing content is censorship. The word is steeped in roman origin and implys state sponsored control based on what is deemed acceptable and what is not for the society. No one is censoring anyone here.

Since censorship is nearly a dirty word, saying that an editor or moderator is censoring is not fair, and not very nice. They are doing their jobs.

 

[WillowPuss]

Monster, whilst I agree with virtually everything you have said, I think you may have taken my post (from another thread) to mean something I did not intend it to mean.

When I said ... this has gone on long enough, I meant the mud-slinging and the name calling.

The job of a moderator is not an easy one (I know from being a moderator of a group at one stage) and it is like walking a tightrope. I feel, in my short time at this forum, that the three moderators we have do a really good job.


And some of this post, I see, has possibly been made redundant in the time it took me to type this out!

 

[Sandia]

I've sorta avoided this topic, on purpose, because frankly, I feel like the whole censorship vs. freedom thing has been done to death.

However, I will admit that these posts raise at least two interesting issues - how censorship relates to this particular forum, and what "rights," if any, outsiders have when they come here.

The bottom line, for me, is that the mods here can censor or delete anything or anyone they want, unless or until the people who actually own this place get fed up with them and kick them out. I'm here at the sufferance of the mods, the mods are here at the sufferance of the owners.

Having said that, I hope the mods will be tolerant, evenhanded, and open-minded. This place will be a much better place if they are. I, personally, would rather see more discussion, more openness, and less kowtowing here. And most of all, I'd like to see some folks develop a sense of humor, especially about themselves. But that's just my opinion. I don't even have the "right" to post it here, much less force it on anybody else.

Having said all that, let me also say: I really like this place, I'm happy that it is moderated, I think (as far as I can tell) the moderators are doing a wonderful job, and I hope I can earn a place here. I'm not under the impression that I have the "right" to be here, or to be accepted, or anything else.

Finally, I hope the old-timers can accept new people, with new or different ideas or different styles than their own. I think everybody will be happier in the long run if they do.

Sandia.

 

[WriterDom]

If you have a spare weekend, and can read through the 68 pages of the Mother Thread, I don't think, at least I don't remember a single troll, very few arguments, or baggage brought in from other boards.

I think we may have hinted at some point, or maybe even begged and pleaded, for our own board, but there wasn't any lead time to my knowledge, of the forum's birth. We woke up one day and it was here. It's only natural that we're going to have some growing pains.

Becoming a forum has brought in a lot of new faces, new ideas, new friends, and informed posters. It also brings in people who are here just to be disruptive. While I think the mods are on the same page as far as removing a handful of posts, I can't say for certain that is the correct path. I can only say I feel it's the best thing for the board.

The easiest way to find out if absolute free speech is the best way to go for this forum is for the mods to take a one month vacation from even reading the forum. Then we can at least compare both sides of the coin.

 

[lilredwolph]

Ok MHO

This is not an issue due to that fact that the poster that started this whole thing posted as unregistered. I feel if you are not going to show us your face and let us see who is attacking or belittling us, than you give up the right to be treated with the same rights as those of us that show are face and bare our ass.

MHO,
lilred

 

[Sandia]

If you have a spare weekend, and can read through the 68 pages of the Mother Thread, I don't think, at least I don't remember a single troll, very few arguments, or baggage brought in from other boards.

I think we may have hinted at some point, or maybe even begged and pleaded, for our own board, but there wasn't any lead time to my knowledge, of the forum's birth. We woke up one day and it was here. It's only natural that we're going to have some growing pains.

Becoming a forum has brought in a lot of new faces, new ideas, new friends, and informed posters. It also brings in people who are here just to be disruptive. While I think the mods are on the same page as far as removing a handful of posts, I can't say for certain that is the correct path. I can only say I feel it's the best thing for the board.

The easiest way to find out if absolute free speech is the best way to go for this forum is for the mods to take a one month vacation from even reading the forum. Then we can at least compare both sides of the coin.

WD, I've read this a couple of times, and I admit I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at, or where you're coming from here.

I will go out on a limb though, with one thing: I think y'all might find that few newbies are going to be willing to go back and read the sixty-eight pages of the mother thread. If that's the price of admission, you might find it a little lonely around here.

The fact is, I'm more interested in what's happening here now, not what was happening there then.

Sorry if that was blunt, but it's been on my mind a while...

Sandia.

 

[MissTaken]

Monster666

It appears that you hvae taken my post and willow's out of context. It was posted to a particular thread to address that thread.

If you have read all of my posts on this matter, you will find I am a proponent of free speech.

You will find that I offered a solution to deleting threads.

You will find that I have never been a proponent of mudslinging and flaming , but a proponent of free speech and discussion and have openly voiced this opinion on ALL of the boards I frequent.

Yes, the matter warrants discussion . It does not require calling people out or questioning other's activities. (With respect intended WD, that thread should not have been started.)

The discussion should take place on the General Board for all to be a party too, BDSM or not.

I cannot and will not ever encourage antagonizing posts from anyone. Some things could be better said in private or not at all.

I only ask of you, on a personal and friendly note, that if you are to quote posts between threads, don't forget the context in which is was first written.

And no...WD, the mods should NOT take a vacation!

And yes, the monster thread seldom met with in fighting or arguing. Why? Because those involved fostered a feeling of mutual respect. This facet needs to continue to be carried over into the forum.

 

[MissTaken]

WD, I've read this a couple of times, and I admit I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at, or where you're coming from here.

I will go out on a limb though, with one thing: I think y'all might find that few newbies are going to be willing to go back and read the sixty-eight pages of the mother thread. If that's the price of admission, you might find it a little lonely around here.

The fact is, I'm more interested in what's happening here now, not what was happening there then.

Sorry if that was blunt, but it's been on my mind a while...

Sandia.

We encourage others to read the monster thread as it provides a glimpse at who the "oldies" are and from whence they came. It also provides a lot of information that could be posted over and over every time a new face joined in.

IT also sets a tone for this forum. It was the beginning of BDSMers finding a safe and non judgemental place to meet, share ideas and discuss components of the lifestyle. There are plenty of web sites, chat rooms and bb's out there where anything goes. If we want to simply copy another site, why bother at all?

But yes, we have discussed ways in which to make it more manageable and will often cut and paste from the monster thread if there is a relevant issue that has been discussed there.

Thanks for you input...take care.

 

[WillowPuss]

We encourage others to read the monster thread as it provides a glimpse at who the "oldies" are and from whence they came. It also provides a lot of information that could be posted over and over every time a new face joined in.

IT also sets a tone for this forum. It was the beginning of BDSMers finding a safe and non judgemental place to meet, share ideas and discuss components of the lifestyle. There are plenty of web sites, chat rooms and bb's out there where anything goes. If we want to simply copy another site, why bother at all?

Robuck and I are almost half way through the Monster/Mother thread.

We have gained so much from it - both knowledge and insight to some of the people who continue to post to this forum.
(Sandia ... you are missing out on some great discussions by not dipping into it.)



MissT, thank you for your comment on our posts being taken out of context. When I saw mine quoted, I went and re-read what I had written as it made me unsure that I had conveyed what I meant it to convey.


As to this forum or BB (whatever people call it) we (Robuck and i) find it to be a haven of calm. It is the only place we have come across so far on our wanderings around the www that is not marked by flamers at every corner; by idiots posting banal comments every couple of seconds just to see their name in print; by ... I could go on and on here.

I truly hope that this forum continues to grow in the way envisioned by those who participated from its conception. We are proud to be part of it.

 

[Sandia]

<sigh> No disrespect, and I am genuinely not trying to be a troublemaker here, and I appreciate what you're doing here,
but
reading a sixty-eight page thread is just too high a price for admission. Seriously.
I ain't gonna do it.
There's just too many interesting on-going discussions that I can actually participate in for me to be willing to do it.

I know it may seem like it from some of my posts, but I truly do not have that much time on my hands.

If you don't want to talk to or answer questions from newbies when they come here, then don't. But don't tell folks they gotta take a course before they're allowed to participate.
Seriously.

Or, say it up front, in the "Rules," so folks can know what they're getting into ahead of time.

I apologize if that's not what you're saying. It may well be I'm being over-sensitive here. In fact, I probably am.

I realize you used the word "encourage," not "require" back there...

Actually, this isn't really about the M thread at all... you prolly already figured that out.

I hope you'll take this post in the way it was felt.

Sandia.

I really hope not to offend with these - and any subsequent - questions. I don't know much about your subculture, though, and would love to learn from someone who's so initmately acquainted with it. Reading about it from a website isn't the same thing as talking with someone for whom it's an everyday reality.

cymbidia.

I hope that wasn't taken out of context...

 

[WillowPuss]

Sandia ... I was never told I had to read the M thread before joining.

Indeed, it was a good few days before anyone mentioned the thread existed - and then another couple before I found it. (OK - I'm slow sometimes!)

I have never had a question ignored. Maybe it has been answered by PM or answered in a way that made me think a little - not handed to me on a plate, so to speak ... but my questions have always been answered.

You say that your post is not really about the M thread ...
please put me out of my misery ... what is it about then?

 

[WriterDom]

We'll give you an exemption on the mega thread, Sandia. Just don't let it get around or everyone will want one.

 

[Sandia]

We'll give you an exemption on the mega thread, Sandia. Just don't let it get around or everyone will want one.

(smile) Thank you, WD. I appreciate it.

 

[Sandia]

Sandia ... I was never told I had to read the M thread before joining.

Indeed, it was a good few days before anyone mentioned the thread existed - and then another couple before I found it. (OK - I'm slow sometimes!)

I have never had a question ignored. Maybe it has been answered by PM or answered in a way that made me think a little - not handed to me on a plate, so to speak ... but my questions have always been answered.

You say that your post is not really about the M thread ...
please put me out of my misery ... what is it about then?

Willow, I think there's some tension here about what the BDSM board is... or should be.

I'm trying to argue for my position.
While also arguing for my acceptance.

Sandia.

 

[monster666]

Re: Monster666

I did not mean to take your post out of context. I only meant to say that there was still an issue worthy of discussion, and I wasn't ready to drop everything just yet. I am sorry if you felt the quote was out of context. I meant no offensive.

It appears that you hvae taken my post and willow's out of context. It was posted to a particular thread to address that thread.

 

[MissTaken]

Re: Re: Monster666

I did not mean to take your post out of context. I only meant to say that there was still an issue worthy of discussion, and I wasn't ready to drop everything just yet. I am sorry if you felt the quote was out of context. I meant no offensive.

Thanks!



Sandia?

No need to argue....

keep on posting and asking.

(Psst the word is "encourage" not "prerequisite" )

 

[SpectreT]

Late as usual.

Every proponent <sp?> of what I call, in the interest of precision, "Unlimited Free Speech Without Monitor, Reservation, or Limit", has probably heard the old saw about yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater.

This was more like walking around West Hollywood wearing a sandwich board reading "Kill all the Queers!"

It's just not done, at least by anyone with an ounce of sense or any little bit of compassion for his (or her) fellow human being.

If that's what someone's got to say, fine. Just not in my yard, son. Take it across the street.

That's just me. Anybody can say whatever they want, but don't insult me in my own home. Have a little more class than that, please......

 

[SpectreT]

Damnit! I just realized I broke my own rule about posting anything to do with politics....

 

[cellis]

Ok T bend over and let me try out this new flogger I just finished!!!!!!

 

[SpectreT]

How many? Would you like me to count them back?

 

[cellis]

Hmmm let me see... How many? At least 10 whacks, just to get warmed up...

 

[monster666]

See, I started this thread just to suck you into a political discussion! Aren't you just in awe of my nearly supernatural, diabolical rabble-rousing prowess? ::koff koff::

Damnit! I just realized I broke my own rule about posting anything to do with politics....

 

[WillowPuss]

Monster, Spectre ... I just love* you guys!

More power to ya funny bones!


(*In a sisiterly, strictly platonic kinda way ... before anyone gets any ideas and starts something else!!!)