Forgiveness

[Niam1985]

Real forgiveness to me has usually felt more like acceptance than anything else. Given the circumstances and human nature, it could not have been any different. That it happened, and can't be changed. What you can change is your course of action from that point on, and self preservation is your responsibility.

Words aside, people always show you who they are, it is simply our job to believe them when they do.

I wanna be you when i grow up.

 

[richard_daily]

What makes me angriest about that kind of shit is the parents--the mothers in those cases, but you see it with fathers sometimes, too. You knew what was going on, and you didn't leave? You should've been the one who was tortured to death then, you stupid fucking cunt.

I don't even have any sympathy for the "Oh, he threatened me, too, so I was scared to leave" bullshit. In my opinion, once you have children, your life is no longer your own. (It's one reason I don't want to have them.) You are responsible for that kid no matter what.

Get the child out. Fucking sacrifice yourself to do it if you have to. If, once the child is safe, you want to stay with the sonofabitch and let him beat you to death, then so be it. But get that kid in the care of someone who's not a fucking retard. The fact that these "mothers" failed to do that is, like Netz said, proof that some people need to be forcibly sterilized. I have ZERO sympathy.

I'm sure someone will point out that since I don't have children, I don't understaaaaaaand. But you know what? I'd do that for an animal of mine. So you're damn right I'd do it for a kid if I were foolish enough to have one (which I'm not).

Children are a privilege, not a right, and most people are not worthy of the privilege.

/tangent

The problem with the statement "children are a privilege" is the determination of who gets to make the decision on what you have to do to obtain that privilege.

I have an ex partner who was raped by her father as a child. Her mother covered it up for years, and denied that it ever happened. This in turn led to my ex's mother lashing repeatedly in anger against my ex when she was a little girl, because the mother felt guilty for hiding the abuse for so long.

In turn, my ex acted very similarly towards me (with un-justified anger, resentment, and neglect), as our relationship progressed.

My ex had been in and out of cults her entire life, had a severe victim complex, and blamed anyone who gets close to her for her trauma. It got worse when her father and mother re-entered her life, and she started talking to them again. Once that happened, our relationship went downhill very quickly, as she needed to find places to put all the un-resolved anguish that she had been put through, and since they couldn't be put on her parents, she started to put them onto everyone else in her life.

 

[Netzach]

The problem with the statement "children are a privilege" is the determination of who gets to make the decision on what you have to do to obtain that privilege.

Everyone can vote. Until they commit a felony serious enough to lose that right.

It *should* work, but in reality doesn't work very well.

Neither does what we have now, which is have your babies all you want, until you demonstrate that you should not have this responsibility. It's all I can see working though, because I'm not into other people making that decision about who must and who must not reproduce, either.

I'm fine with repeat offending irresponsible mofos never seeing their offspring again after certain lines are crossed. Sadly this doesn't always work well in its implementation, but it's what we've got to work with.

 

[BiBunny]

Holy shit, I can't believe at least someone didn't call me out on what I said in my absence.

As far as children being a privilege, I think people need to be better educated on what having children entails before they start popping them out one after another. Seems like the people who least need them are the ones who have the most of them.

I recognized a long time ago that I am much too selfish to have children, so I don't want to have them. If more people were introspective and/or honest enough with themselves to realize this before they have kids, rather than 2 or 3 years after the fact, the world would be a much better place.

 

[CandiCame]

I like this. But sometimes I wonder about this reaction in those that are prone to over-reaction. My mother had anger problems when I was growing up and used me as a verbal whipping post. She took any reaction from me to her anger as an attack and used it to fuel her burning rage. Eventually she would calm a bit and forgive me, but it was like this. I'd have to go to another room till she was to be around me again (which suited me just fine).

What I guess I'm trying to say is that works for people you're not close to, or those you don't want to be close to anymore. But this can really fuck with someone's head if done repeatedly and without good reason.

Yeah, well, you don't forgive people that you care about. Forgiveness is the first part in cutting ties, particularly to enablers. It's used as a method of escape. That's the entire point. It cuts the emotional tie that allows you to cut the physical tie so you won't be tempted to return to them, and since they're an enabler, to the drugs.

Holy fucking shit, I paid attention in NA.

I didn't mean to do that.

 

[richard_daily]

Everyone can vote. Until they commit a felony serious enough to lose that right.

It *should* work, but in reality doesn't work very well.

Neither does what we have now, which is have your babies all you want, until you demonstrate that you should not have this responsibility. It's all I can see working though, because I'm not into other people making that decision about who must and who must not reproduce, either.

I understand that your intentions are good, but it in many ways, your suggestions contains elements that mirror the path to fascism.

I'm fine with repeat offending irresponsible mofos never seeing their offspring again after certain lines are crossed. Sadly this doesn't always work well in its implementation, but it's what we've got to work with.

repeat offenders of what?

Child abuse? I'd agree with you there... but the sad facts are, that the vast majority of parents who commit abuse are never held accountable for it.

 

[Netzach]

I understand that your intentions are good, but it in many ways, your suggestions contains elements that mirror the path to fascism.



repeat offenders of what?

Child abuse? I'd agree with you there... but the sad facts are, that the vast majority of parents who commit abuse are never held accountable for it.

You misunderstand me.

I'm against the death penalty and against anything remotely like forced sterilization or the limitation of abortion for any reason (two sides of one coin) in terms of how I think we should generally be, in regard to policy. We see how these policies are applied in an oppressive way every day - the death penalty in the US is a form of legalized racial killing. It's sick.

I see having children as an entitlement in a very broad way, like voting. I've seen people denied agency over children because they're diabled, because they're poor, because someone felt like it that day, and it's a terrible thing. Just as people have been denied their voting rights on the same shitty criteria. But then you do run into the serial child abuser, or the periodic felon, and it's a fact that those people are denied even these basic freedoms - sometimes for better sometimes for worse. That's how we roll. We don't go tying tubes preemptively, fuck I hope not anymore, but we will take the kids away.

We generally suck at implementation. That's where it falls apart.

I'm considering the fact that there are instances so glaringly open and shut that they make me understand why we're tempted to consider extreme punishment. In an ideal world these fringe punishments might be applied at a time like this if applying them were ever to happen. I have no problem saying that. I don't think we always have to forgive, transcend, move past.

I think we're completely incapable of using power of life and death acceptably because we're a culture filled to the brim with rotten inequality - and that's the only reason not to do it, as far as I'm concerned. We're nowhere near capable of justice as we are today. Clearly - I reiterate, this guy got six years. What would happen if the victim were...

an adult male?
an adult female, white and well liked and middle class?
an adult female, white and older and schizophrenic?
a known prostitute?
a male celebrity?
a kid he abducted?

You get the picture.

My reservations are practical, they are not philosophical. I don't think that "known child murderer" is going to be the nose under the tent for disabled people, minorities, and all those vulnerable in fascist times. That is a very strange shaped camel's nose, and I can't see how anyone can fail to spot the difference.

This is an instance where I'd have no problem seeing stone-cold revenge motivated state-based termination applied, outside of the fact that the state will then get greedy and fuck it up the next time.

It's not an ideal world. It's too subject to abuse and misapplication. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with my assertions or desires.

"Should be" doesn't mean "let's charge ahead and make this possible." It means "fitting."

 

[Ropebunny]

I don't even have any sympathy for the "Oh, he threatened me, too, so I was scared to leave" bullshit. In my opinion, once you have children, your life is no longer your own. (It's one reason I don't want to have them.) You are responsible for that kid no matter what.

Get the child out. Fucking sacrifice yourself to do it if you have to. If, once the child is safe, you want to stay with the sonofabitch and let him beat you to death, then so be it. But get that kid in the care of someone who's not a fucking retard. The fact that these "mothers" failed to do that is, like Netz said, proof that some people need to be forcibly sterilized. I have ZERO sympathy.

As a parent, I agree with you. As soon as you have a kid your life is definately not just yours and every major decision you make while that kid is in your care needs to take their safety and happiness into account.

What I'd really like to do is crawl into these people's minds - Being John Malkovich style - to see what the hell they are thinking and feeling in these situations coz some huge emotional fuck up must be happening in there. We fix the fuck up = this terrible stuff doesn't happen?

At my place of work i have met some badly abused and neglected children.The worst case was two boys who had been kept in a basement.Their brother had died, his body put in a storage bin and left a few feet away from them in a closet. Those boys still haunt me.So does the absoulutely delightful little boy who smiled and giggled and held hands with his foster mother...I went home and cried when she told me he was going back to his biological mother.

I really hope your workplace offers you counselling, it must really hard emotionally to deal with kids that have been through abuse like that. I'm currently studying to be a social worker but I'm kind of at a crossroads at the moment as to whether I should continue or transfer to psychology. I'm not so sure anymore that I'm a strong enough person to do that kind of work.

Real forgiveness to me has usually felt more like acceptance than anything else. Given the circumstances and human nature, it could not have been any different. That it happened, and can't be changed. What you can change is your course of action from that point on, and self preservation is your responsibility.

Words aside, people always show you who they are, it is simply our job to believe them when they do.

I know these are wise words, I can feel it.

I'm considering the fact that there are instances so glaringly open and shut that they make me understand why we're tempted to consider extreme punishment. In an ideal world these fringe punishments might be applied at a time like this if applying them were ever to happen. I have no problem saying that. I don't think we always have to forgive, transcend, move past.

I think we're completely incapable of using power of life and death acceptably because we're a culture filled to the brim with rotten inequality - and that's the only reason not to do it, as far as I'm concerned. We're nowhere near capable of justice as we are today. Clearly - I reiterate, this guy got six years. What would happen if the victim were...

an adult male?
an adult female, white and well liked and middle class?
an adult female, white and older and schizophrenic?
a known prostitute?
a male celebrity?
a kid he abducted?

You get the picture.

My reservations are practical, they are not philosophical. I don't think that "known child murderer" is going to be the nose under the tent for disabled people, minorities, and all those vulnerable in fascist times. That is a very strange shaped camel's nose, and I can't see how anyone can fail to spot the difference.

This is an instance where I'd have no problem seeing stone-cold revenge motivated state-based termination applied, outside of the fact that the state will then get greedy and fuck it up the next time.

It's not an ideal world. It's too subject to abuse and misapplication. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with my assertions or desires.

"Should be" doesn't mean "let's charge ahead and make this possible." It means "fitting."

I'm totally with you now. If such an ideal world existed I could support state-based capital punishment.

Sometimes I wish I were an realist instead of an idealist. But only if the ideal is our reality. It'll never happen though and it's pretty depressing...

 

[JamieJ424]

Forgiveness to me is just letting go of anger and moving on. It's accepting the fact that the stew of humanity is liberally sprinkled with moral deficiencies, questionable judgement, mob mentality/groupthink, self-justification and, at its fringes, truly destructive perversions and personality disorders.

It's not pretending nothing happened, and it's certainly not leaving yourself open to a repeat performance.

J