Forgiveness

[Ropebunny]

Every morning I read the paper online while drinking my coffee. Today I was greeted with this: Killer Dad 'good man': Wife

It's a terrible case and something that seems to be happening more frequently around here.

It made me think about forgiveness though and what forgiveness actually *means* to people.

It sounds to me that for the wife in the article forgiveness means wiping the slate clean and carrying on as though the event didn't happen.

I think I'm a pretty forgiving person but to me, forgiveness means something very different. It means not holding a grudge. It doesn't require an apology, though getting one usually helps. It means letting go of the strong, negative feelings towards the person that had caused the hurt, though it doesn't nessesarily mean everything will be fine and dandy between us. In the case of violence, I don't think I'd ever want to go near that person again.

There's obviously no right or wrong opinions on this topic but I'm interested to see what forgiveness looks like to others. Is it conditional on an apology? Is forgiveness important to you, or not so much? What happens after you forgive someone? Are there some things you will/could never forgive? Who or what has influenced your views on forgiveness?




p.s. I apologise for the prolific use of the word 'forgiveness' in this post. Please forgive me

 

[Netzach]

Every morning I read the paper online while drinking my coffee. Today I was greeted with this: Killer Dad 'good man': Wife

It's a terrible case and something that seems to be happening more frequently around here.

It made me think about forgiveness though and what forgiveness actually *means* to people.

It sounds to me that for the wife in the article forgiveness means wiping the slate clean and carrying on as though the event didn't happen.

I think I'm a pretty forgiving person but to me, forgiveness means something very different. It means not holding a grudge. It doesn't require an apology, though getting one usually helps. It means letting go of the strong, negative feelings towards the person that had caused the hurt, though it doesn't nessesarily mean everything will be fine and dandy between us. In the case of violence, I don't think I'd ever want to go near that person again.

There's obviously no right or wrong opinions on this topic but I'm interested to see what forgiveness looks like to others. Is it conditional on an apology? Is forgiveness important to you, or not so much? What happens after you forgive someone? Are there some things you will/could never forgive? Who or what has influenced your views on forgiveness?




p.s. I apologise for the prolific use of the word 'forgiveness' in this post. Please forgive me

I think this is why I will never understand Xtian values. Healing is important, but some people should be taken out like rabid dogs.

 

[Niam1985]

I think this is why I will never understand Xtian values. Healing is important, but some people should be taken out like rabid dogs.

i believe some people give their rights as a human once they do something heinous.I personally don't believeci need to forgive child molesters, rapists, murderers.
A lousy mother?
That's thectype of forgiveness i struggle with.Knowing you'll never get that apology...but trying to go on without it eating you alive. The forgiveness more for yourself.
I think it's worth trying to achieve.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ropebunny I think the same way. And it wasn't untill someone suggested that to me-- that forgiveness does NOT mean letting that person get close ever again, does NOT mean that everything will be the same, does NOT mean you must pretend a predator will not prey again-- that I was ever able to say "I forgive you."

The fact that I was in my forties before I ever heard that concept speaks volumes about the moral ignorance of our society, IMO.

 

[CandiCame]

In NA we were taught that forgiveness is basically a big 'fuck you' to whoever you're pissed at. It's your way of saying, 'fuck it'. Fuck it, you hurt me, but fuck you, I refuse to continue to care. I refuse to let something YOU did or something YOU said fuck with me ANYMORE. This is my life. And I'm not letting negative emotions weigh it down because of something YOU did. Welcome to my happy place. Now get your shit and leave.

 

[FurryFury]

Generally speaking I'm not into forgiving.

I don't buy that it eats you up if you don't forgive.

I think forgiving, and particularly forgetting, are pretty dangerous things actually.

Anything that allows someone to get away with heinous acts and remain in society as if they are okay just isn't okay with me. Some things are simply unforgivable, in my book.

Which does not mean I'm giving power over me to the person or situation that is unforgivable.

Also it does not mean that I can't make peace with the past and move on.

However, that can be very hard when the person remains in your life in some way and/or is toxic to your kids.

Still there is a way to find serenity with what IS, without giving up your own personal power in a sometimes powerless situation. Part of that is teaching your kids about their own power to find their calm in a storm and say no when they need to.

 

[richard_daily]

Ropebunny I think the same way. And it wasn't untill someone suggested that to me-- that forgiveness does NOT mean letting that person get close ever again, does NOT mean that everything will be the same, does NOT mean you must pretend a predator will not prey again-- that I was ever able to say "I forgive you."

The fact that I was in my forties before I ever heard that concept speaks volumes about the moral ignorance of our society, IMO.

I think that giving forgiveness is much more about your mental health and well being, than it is about making the other person feel better... Of course, there is a huge range of forgiveness and things to be forgiven for, and it sounds like we're talking about the being on one extreme end of it.

 

[CurvAppeal]

it is almost impossible for me not to be able to forgive someone, TBH. I have tried for years to be able to hold said grudge, but that grudge lasts about a few hours and it's gone. I agree with what people have said above, it doesn't mean you'll let them get close to you ever again, or that it is permission for them to walk through the door and enter your life...it's finding peace (for me it is) a type of a closure...and me being able to say god bless you....i hope life treats you kindly, have a good one.

 

[Niam1985]

I think that giving forgiveness is much more about your mental health and well being, than it is about making the other person feel better... Of course, there is a huge range of forgiveness and things to be forgiven for, and it sounds like we're talking about the being on one extreme end of it.

such a huge range of forgiveness. The first type you speak of, the kind for our own mental health-I would never tell anyone they should forgive those who have done them harm, its so personal.I don't believe in "forgive and forget", and it's certainly not "what you did was okay", but more of doing it so someday we have a "good"goodbye.
As for murderers being "good people"???
NO, that is the definition of a not good person. They did not behave like a decent human being.I am a very gentle, very compassionate person but throwing a child killer to rabid dogs even sounds too kind.If there is an eternity, it seems a good place for the reward that individuals who have commited heinous acts deserve.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

For me to forgive someone, there has to be some acknowledgement on their part that they hurt me, and that they regret it. I know that this is not the most advanced human position; I understand the ideal that forgiveness is an act of choice, and independent of other people, or of circumstance, and that it holds me back when I hold onto a grudge. I know this intellectually, and I respect it.

But I am not able to do it.

Not yet, anyway.

 

[CandiCame]

such a huge range of forgiveness. The first type you speak of, the kind for our own mental health-I would never tell anyone they should forgive those who have done them harm, its so personal.I don't believe in "forgive and forget", and it's certainly not "what you did was okay", but more of doing it so someday we have a "good"goodbye.
As for murderers being "good people"???
NO, that is the definition of a not good person. They did not behave like a decent human being.I am a very gentle, very compassionate person but throwing a child killer to rabid dogs even sounds too kind.If there is an eternity, it seems a good place for the reward that individuals who have commited heinous acts deserve.

I sure as hell wouldn't trust the motherfucker with my other kids. That bitch is crazy. That has nothing to do with forgiveness, that's just fucking logical. You don't leave your kids with people who throw toddlers into walls and stomp on them. You should never have to explain that to someone.

 

[Mrs_Foxtrot72]

There's obviously no right or wrong opinions on this topic but I'm interested to see what forgiveness looks like to others. Is it conditional on an apology? Is forgiveness important to you, or not so much? What happens after you forgive someone? Are there some things you will/could never forgive? Who or what has influenced your views on forgiveness?

For me it depends on how i was wronged. I do need an apology, in some cases a simple look of upsetness that you have hurt me will do, while others there better be something written that i can hold on to and probably chocolate or a sweet gift.

i easily forgive, at first for most issues so it is not such a big deal to me, but if it is something that you know that i am sensitive tword that you hurt me with, then yes very important if our relationship will continue. unfortunately i have cut friends off from me because i could not forgive them, or they had repeated the same mistake to many times to be able to forgive them.

in some cases we move on like it never happened, in others i need time to build trust in you again. it all depends on severity. on topics that i am sensitive to you might never live down the little bit of mistrust that lingers, but that does not mean our relationship is over, just changed.

sever bodily harm i could not forgive, that is not that you hurt me badly but you hurt anyone close to you badly and i do not believe that it was an accident.
being cheated on many times, eventroly i can not justify forgiving and trying again.

i have had a difficult past where people hurt me emotionally, physically, and physiologically so through me growing past all of that has influenced who and what i forgive now

 

[IrisAlthea]

No, I don't need an apology to forgive but it does help.
For me forgiveness is more about my ability to let go of the anger and hurt.
It does not necessarily mean that things go on like nothing happened or that I will ever forget and much less trust again.

 

[BonBon1976]

WOw ... I agree with the "put down" comment ... some people should not be allowed to share our air.

 

[Ropebunny]

Thanks everyone for your replies, I really wasn't expecting so many! I've been stewing over this topic for a while so it's really interesting to see how differently (or alike) we feel about this. What follows is my monster reply coz everyone posted some thought-provoking stuff:

Healing is important, but some people should be taken out like rabid dogs.

This makes my moral compass swing. That I have been able to justify this for some cases and not for others makes me question my ethics.

Ropebunny I think the same way. And it wasn't untill someone suggested that to me-- that forgiveness does NOT mean letting that person get close ever again, does NOT mean that everything will be the same, does NOT mean you must pretend a predator will not prey again-- that I was ever able to say "I forgive you."

The fact that I was in my forties before I ever heard that concept speaks volumes about the moral ignorance of our society, IMO.

Totally in agreement. For all the moral talk out there the majority seems to relate to religious values, which works for those who into that, but how about everyone else? Why the hell don't we teach kids that this stuff doesn't come in cookie cutter shapes and however it works FOR YOU is right?

In NA we were taught that forgiveness is basically a big 'fuck you' to whoever you're pissed at. It's your way of saying, 'fuck it'. Fuck it, you hurt me, but fuck you, I refuse to continue to care. I refuse to let something YOU did or something YOU said fuck with me ANYMORE. This is my life. And I'm not letting negative emotions weigh it down because of something YOU did. Welcome to my happy place. Now get your shit and leave.

I like this. But sometimes I wonder about this reaction in those that are prone to over-reaction. My mother had anger problems when I was growing up and used me as a verbal whipping post. She took any reaction from me to her anger as an attack and used it to fuel her burning rage. Eventually she would calm a bit and forgive me, but it was like this. I'd have to go to another room till she was to be around me again (which suited me just fine).

What I guess I'm trying to say is that works for people you're not close to, or those you don't want to be close to anymore. But this can really fuck with someone's head if done repeatedly and without good reason.

I think forgiving, and particularly forgetting, are pretty dangerous things actually.

Anything that allows someone to get away with heinous acts and remain in society as if they are okay just isn't okay with me. Some things are simply unforgivable, in my book.

I agree with you here FurryFury. Like you said, that forgetting part can be really dangerous. It's almost like forgiving recognises that the was a wrong and moves past it but forgetting gives that perpetrator a free pass to do it again. Yeah, people change, but pretending something never happened - fuck that.

Of course, there is a huge range of forgiveness and things to be forgiven for, and it sounds like we're talking about the being on one extreme end of it.

Exactly. The link I posted is about the most extreme you can get. I'm starting to think that *way* we forgive is hugely dependant on the severity of the act and that we all have a scale as what kind of forgiveness, if any, is appropriate for a given situation.

it is almost impossible for me not to be able to forgive someone, TBH. I have tried for years to be able to hold said grudge, but that grudge lasts about a few hours and it's gone.

I'm the same. I used to think that I was really weird, especially in high school where everyone seemed to have a grudge over someone. I think the reason for it though is this - I can't stay angry. Same times where I know my hormones are playing up, the longest I can be angry is about and hour. Then I forget if it's something minor, or get sad if it's something major. Then the act of nuturing me back to normality gets my forgiveness.... yeah, pretty fucked up.

My version of forgiveness to this guy would be to slip him the rope to hang himself. If he hasn't the overwhelming grief & remorse to go through with it, he deserves a lot more than six years.

Not quite my version, but I had been thinking earlier that if I'd done what he did then I'd take that rope. I wonder what that says about us?

As for murderers being "good people"???
NO, that is the definition of a not good person. They did not behave like a decent human being.I am a very gentle, very compassionate person but throwing a child killer to rabid dogs even sounds too kind.If there is an eternity, it seems a good place for the reward that individuals who have commited heinous acts deserve.

The turmoil inside me continues. As heinous as some acts are, can we really ever justify stripping someone of their life? As much as I may think someone may deserve it, could I in reality make that kind of judgement and remain morally unchanged? Makes me think.

For me to forgive someone, there has to be some acknowledgement on their part that they hurt me, and that they regret it. I know that this is not the most advanced human position; I understand the ideal that forgiveness is an act of choice, and independent of other people, or of circumstance, and that it holds me back when I hold onto a grudge. I know this intellectually, and I respect it.

But I am not able to do it.

Not yet, anyway.

That's pretty brave to admit that to yourself, let alone to us. Kudos to you dude

I sure as hell wouldn't trust the motherfucker with my other kids. That bitch is crazy. That has nothing to do with forgiveness, that's just fucking logical. You don't leave your kids with people who throw toddlers into walls and stomp on them. You should never have to explain that to someone.

THIS is the part I just can't wrap my head around. I've been trying to be empathetic but I just CAN'T be here...

unfortunately i have cut friends off from me because i could not forgive them, or they had repeated the same mistake to many times to be able to forgive them.

in some cases we move on like it never happened, in others i need time to build trust in you again. it all depends on severity. on topics that i am sensitive to you might never live down the little bit of mistrust that lingers, but that does not mean our relationship is over, just changed.

Interesting that you mention trust. I'm with you that for a relationship to continue the rebuilding of trust comes before forgiveness. Then there's that other part too, about repeat offences. I think we all have our tolerance as to how many 'mistakes' we can allow before we react. I guess though that sometimes that fuse is too short or long....

 

[CurvAppeal]

ropebunny you are incredible...and you are definitely loved.

 

[Netzach]

It is really really really hard to trigger my absolutist buttons. This did. I could throw the switch and sleep fine on someone like this. No "who done it" ambiguity here, even. No attempt to off himself in an illustration of "deep seated issues" - just stone cold non-human. You rescind your participation in humanity when you do a thing like this - we're not talking about traumatized child soldiers, we're talking about a guy doing this to his own offspring out of nowhere.

Six years?

The woman is completely out of her mind, clearly another victim, and any woman who is more aligned with an animal like this than her dead child needs to be sterilized. Another thing I don't throw around casually.

 

[Ropebunny]

ropebunny you are incredible...and you are definitely loved.

Why thank you, you've made my day You know, I think you're pretty incredible too!

 

[Ropebunny]

It is really really really hard to trigger my absolutist buttons. This did. I could throw the switch and sleep fine on someone like this. No "who done it" ambiguity here, even.

Maybe I could, but I'm not sure. I'm just gonna throw out a slightly tweaked Spiderman quote here (I am NOT a fan, the other half ties me up and forces me to watch it, literally).

"With >absolute< power comes >absolute< responsibility",

The most absolute power I can think of it the power to legitimately take a person's life. I don't think I could or would want to take responsibility for that, ever.

Where the lines begin to blur is: how would I feel if this happened to MY loved one. I do reserve the right to change my mind....

Sadly, I can think of an far worse case here that would trigger your absolutist buttons. I'd post the link but I'm not sure if you'd really want to read it.

 

[Netzach]

Maybe I could, but I'm not sure. I'm just gonna throw out a slightly tweaked Spiderman quote here (I am NOT a fan, the other half ties me up and forces me to watch it, literally).

"With >absolute< power comes >absolute< responsibility",

The most absolute power I can think of it the power to legitimately take a person's life. I don't think I could or would want to take responsibility for that, ever.

Where the lines begin to blur is: how would I feel if this happened to MY loved one. I do reserve the right to change my mind....

Sadly, I can think of an far worse case here that would trigger your absolutist buttons. I'd post the link but I'm not sure if you'd really want to read it.

Yeah, it's not even the killing, the killing of an innocent person, it's the context-less WTF of it, and the completely unnatural nature of murdering your own kid and the fact that six years seems an outrage.

I almost feel more comfortable with my lines in the sand when it comes to vulnerable children, as someone in a society who collectively has some investment in them. Kids have no one to advocate that they belong to themselves as citizens with human rights, rather than extensions of their parents, slightly above livestock. My loved ones all have more advocacy than a little kid and I can't see someone getting only six years if it were open and shut.

I find large scale forgiveness really interesting and important - there's a doc done by a survivor of the Pol Pot regime where he meets with one of its higher ranking dealers of death, and has a long relationship of non-confrontation in order to finally get the truth out of this person. He talks a lot about the importance of getting people to a point where they can talk, and about the damage that is done to perpetrators in a war/genocide, who often have no choice.

This worthless flesh sack had a lot of choices.

FWIW, I am against the death penalty as *policy* because the rare case where you have no ambiguity about who did it it never quite seems the one that results in execution. IOW, the state isn't qualified for this one. I have no problem with the theoretical/moral/philosophical assertion that killers of children don't need more time around us. The state isn't capable of figuring this out in an unbiased way.

 

[graceanne]

Forgiveness does not mean forgetfulness or behaving stupidly. Forgiveness simply means not allowing yourself to drown under the burden of anger and hate that comes with grudges. There is no where in the bible that it says that forgiveness should be followed by setting yourself up to be hurt again - that's just codependency.

In this case, the mother should be seeking forgiveness, not 'granting' it, from her other children for allowing them to be cared for by a violent man.

 

[Ropebunny]

Yeah, it's not even the killing, the killing of an innocent person, it's the context-less WTF of it, and the completely unnatural nature of murdering your own kid and the fact that six years seems an outrage.

I almost feel more comfortable with my lines in the sand when it comes to vulnerable children, as someone in a society who collectively has some investment in them. Kids have no one to advocate that they belong to themselves as citizens with human rights, rather than extensions of their parents, slightly above livestock. My loved ones all have more advocacy than a little kid and I can't see someone getting only six years if it were open and shut.

I find large scale forgiveness really interesting and important - there's a doc done by a survivor of the Pol Pot regime where he meets with one of its higher ranking dealers of death, and has a long relationship of non-confrontation in order to finally get the truth out of this person. He talks a lot about the importance of getting people to a point where they can talk, and about the damage that is done to perpetrators in a war/genocide, who often have no choice.

This worthless flesh sack had a lot of choices.

FWIW, I am against the death penalty as *policy* because the rare case where you have no ambiguity about who did it it never quite seems the one that results in execution. IOW, the state isn't qualified for this one. I have no problem with the theoretical/moral/philosophical assertion that killers of children don't need more time around us. The state isn't capable of figuring this out in an unbiased way.

I know it's terrible to say this, but I think I'm starting to feel somewhat desensitized to stories like this now. It seems almost every month there's a new case here and the details of some - make me die a little inside. This guy got 6 years because he killed his daughter and it's not enough, but to get more here you need to do more than kill; you need to torture. And it does happen, to children. Some survive and some don't. Some of their stories are absolutely unbearable, like this one; Nia Glassie's five days of hell or this one; Murdered boy endured final weeks of torture

Logically, I know I should feel angry. I should be braying for these murders' blood but all I feel is this terrible numbness, this great big lump in my chest. I used to feel angry about these cases but now I just feel sad, because it just happens again and again. Maybe NZ does need to bring back capital punishment coz the sentences these killers are getting don't seem to be a good deterrent. I know you said the state isn't qualified for this kind of thing but then, who is?

 

[BiBunny]

I know it's terrible to say this, but I think I'm starting to feel somewhat desensitized to stories like this now. It seems almost every month there's a new case here and the details of some - make me die a little inside. This guy got 6 years because he killed his daughter and it's not enough, but to get more here you need to do more than kill; you need to torture. And it does happen, to children. Some survive and some don't. Some of their stories are absolutely unbearable, like this one; Nia Glassie's five days of hell or this one; Murdered boy endured final weeks of torture

Logically, I know I should feel angry. I should be braying for these murders' blood but all I feel is this terrible numbness, this great big lump in my chest. I used to feel angry about these cases but now I just feel sad, because it just happens again and again. Maybe NZ does need to bring back capital punishment coz the sentences these killers are getting don't seem to be a good deterrent. I know you said the state isn't qualified for this kind of thing but then, who is?

What makes me angriest about that kind of shit is the parents--the mothers in those cases, but you see it with fathers sometimes, too. You knew what was going on, and you didn't leave? You should've been the one who was tortured to death then, you stupid fucking cunt.

I don't even have any sympathy for the "Oh, he threatened me, too, so I was scared to leave" bullshit. In my opinion, once you have children, your life is no longer your own. (It's one reason I don't want to have them.) You are responsible for that kid no matter what.

Get the child out. Fucking sacrifice yourself to do it if you have to. If, once the child is safe, you want to stay with the sonofabitch and let him beat you to death, then so be it. But get that kid in the care of someone who's not a fucking retard. The fact that these "mothers" failed to do that is, like Netz said, proof that some people need to be forcibly sterilized. I have ZERO sympathy.

I'm sure someone will point out that since I don't have children, I don't understaaaaaaand. But you know what? I'd do that for an animal of mine. So you're damn right I'd do it for a kid if I were foolish enough to have one (which I'm not).

Children are a privilege, not a right, and most people are not worthy of the privilege.

/tangent

 

[Niam1985]

I have children, BiBunny, & I back you on that statement 92%.

for what its worth.

i am a mother, and i feel the same.
But i dont think you .eed to be a parent to know these are the most vulnerable humans in our society and they need to be cared for.
At my place of work i have met some badly abused and neglected children.The worst case was two boys who had been kept in a basement.Their brother had died, his body put in a storage bin and left a few feet away from them in a closet. Those boys still haunt me.So does the absoulutely delightful little boy who smiled and giggled and held hands with his foster mother...I went home and cried when she told me he was going back to his biological mother.
Children should be a priviledge, but sadly anyone can pop them out.
I know in my heart while i have many problems with capital punishment as it stands BUT- I would apply it for even abusers of children, and rapists- not just reserve it for murder.
And if it was MY child? I have an intense knowledge that i could kill someone, its very scary to me, but just the thought makes me have violent feelings.
The mother in this case should be taken away, shw could have saved her child. If she is that weak she shouldn't have any of those children.

 

[Curious_in_Cali]

Real forgiveness to me has usually felt more like acceptance than anything else. Given the circumstances and human nature, it could not have been any different. That it happened, and can't be changed. What you can change is your course of action from that point on, and self preservation is your responsibility.

Words aside, people always show you who they are, it is simply our job to believe them when they do.