Forgiveness

[A Desert Rose]

"I'm sorry that I was party to taking your thread off on a tangent that was entirely unrelated to the topic."

In my defense, it was all part of exhibiting behavior that you can easily choose to forgive and it costs nothing

You are making assumptions that I was referring to you and you are taking personal something that was not meant for you.



In both cases, you would be wrong, Doll.

 

[Recidiva]

You are making assumptions that I was referring to you and you are taking personal something that was not meant for you.



In both cases, you would be wrong, Doll.

Yeah, but I definitely provided one side of an equation.

We forgive us.

Yay!

 

[FurryFury]

I've led a pretty confrontational life, I think. I expect people to hate me.

However, the few times I've done real wrong in my mind, which would be in a context of mismanaging a shared resource or making a bad decision, business or personal, I tend to take action to make up the damage. I suppose that's associated with being 12-steppy, but for me it's usually prompt and takes the form of action.

Words and expectation mean very little to me, I respect actions. I don't ask someone's forgiveness unless I think I've earned it through action.

As for people doing me wrong, I try not to change them. If I make clear I feel wounded, and they don't care, I think it's best to get out of their orbit, as they'll keep doing it no matter what I say. Over time I've become less and less wounded by someone else's actions.

There's a book that said it better than I can:

"The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz:

Be Impeccable With Your Word: Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

Don't Take Anything Personally: Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.

Don't Make Assumptions: Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness, and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

Always Do Your Best: Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse, and regret.

I get what you are saying. I like what I've read of that book as well.

I'm not very confrontational in my RL. I've had enough drama and BS to last me several lifetimes.

However, once or twice people have assumed something about me and decided I was trying to hurt them when I wasn't. They then cut me off and began hating but kept all this from me until such point it surprised me.

These were people who I'd been close to. We'd thrown each other showers, talked into the late hours of the night and so on. Then all of a sudden, nothing.

Well, it's literally stomach turning to me to find out, they weren't just busy, (as we often get in life) they were pissed on an erroneous perception. The optimal way for me to go in such cases is to seek forgiveness or at least understanding and then be left or leave them alone. That's just me.

I'm as loyal as can be. I understand we all get busy in life. OTOH, if you think I did or tried to do something to you ASK me, I am always straight up with people. I never try to hurt my loved ones and frankly it hurts when they find a reason to think I have or would.

I may be rambling now.

Oh about that first shot, it was possible me saying that it's utter and complete bullshit that in order to truly forgive you have to leave yourself, your loved ones and you life open to that person to fuck up again.

That wasn't a personal attack. That was me saying, I categorically do not agree or consider this the slightest bit true but rather foolish to an extreme in most cases. I stand by that.

It's like saying your forgive an arsonist and murderer, covering your life, your body and those of your loved ones with gasoline and then giving the guy a lighter. Doh! Why would you do that shit? Seriously? Yanno?

The first personal and rather specious, weak, attack was NOT thrown by or anyone regulars on this board but a certain troll . . .

 

[Recidiva]

I get what you are saying. I like what I've read of that book as well.

I'm not very confrontational in my RL. I've had enough drama and BS to last me several lifetimes.

However, once or twice people have assumed something about me and decided I was trying to hurt them when I wasn't. They then cut me off and began hating but kept all this from me until such point it surprised me.

These were people who I'd been close to. We'd thrown each other showers, talked into the late hours of the night and so on. Then all of a sudden, nothing.

Well, it's literally stomach turning to me to find out, they weren't just busy, (as we often get in life) they were pissed on an erroneous perception. The optimal way for me to go in such cases is to seek forgiveness or at least understanding and then be left or leave them alone. That's just me.

I'm as loyal as can be. I understand we all get busy in life. OTOH, if you think I did or tried to do something to you ASK me, I am always straight up with people. I never try to hurt my loved ones and frankly it hurts when they find a reason to think I have or would.

I may be rambling now.

Oh about that first shot, it was possible me saying that it's utter and complete bullshit that in order to truly forgive you have to leave yourself, your loved ones and you life open to that person to fuck up again.

That wasn't a personal attack. That was me saying, I categorically do not agree or consider this the slightest bit true but rather foolish to an extreme in most cases. I stand by that.

It's like saying your forgive an arsonist and murderer, covering your life, your body and those of your loved ones with gasoline and then giving the guy a lighter. Doh! Why would you do that shit? Seriously? Yanno?

The first personal and rather specious, weak, attack was NOT thrown by or anyone regulars on this board but a certain troll . . .

I totally get that.

It is another hard precept for me to practice a tenet of free will and realize that people are free to think unfair and wrong things about me. It's partly my interest to appear "right" and to want to control their thoughts about me to want to change that after maybe the first attempt to straighten things out.

I assume if they'd truly wanted to know the answer, they'd ask.

When people behave like this I realize they want to "decide" and not "learn" and I'm better off without their lack of judgment in my life.

 

[FurryFury]

Thinking mean and acting nice is a survival technique. I can do it, too. I can smile sweetly while biting my lip to bloody bits on the inside. No one will know that I'm biting my lip, cause I'm smiling sweetly. I used to stand in front of my mom, hands over my chest, and pinch the insides of my arms hard enough to leave nasty bruises, just so that she'd never know what was going on in my mind.

As a child I apologized cause if I didn't I'd get my ass beat. As a teenager she wouldn't beat my ass, and sending me to my room for a week wasn't punishment, it was a vacation.

LOL!

I can so relate to that vacation statement!

*hug*

 

[FurryFury]

I totally get that.

It is another hard precept for me to practice a tenet of free will and realize that people are free to think unfair and wrong things about me. It's partly my interest to appear "right" and to want to control their thoughts about me to want to change that after maybe the first attempt to straighten things out.

I assume if they'd truly wanted to know the answer, they'd ask.

When people behave like this I realize they want to "decide" and not "learn" and I'm better off without their lack of judgment in my life.

You are absolutely right.

I'm just selfish enough to want the whole incident as cleaned up as I can get it before I walk away. That way the next time I see them at the pool or something we can be cool and I won't get knots in my stomach.

LOL.

Online I'm much more apt to speak up when I see someone who consistently acts like a jerk wad. I get more pissed when people I care about are targeted or just from rudeness for no reason. I'm still pretty non confrontational but sometimes I get in a mood or something and let it fly a bit.

People rarely misbehave in person with me.

 

[graceanne]

I get what you are saying. I like what I've read of that book as well.

I'm not very confrontational in my RL. I've had enough drama and BS to last me several lifetimes.

However, once or twice people have assumed something about me and decided I was trying to hurt them when I wasn't. They then cut me off and began hating but kept all this from me until such point it surprised me.

These were people who I'd been close to. We'd thrown each other showers, talked into the late hours of the night and so on. Then all of a sudden, nothing.

Well, it's literally stomach turning to me to find out, they weren't just busy, (as we often get in life) they were pissed on an erroneous perception. The optimal way for me to go in such cases is to seek forgiveness or at least understanding and then be left or leave them alone. That's just me.

I'm as loyal as can be. I understand we all get busy in life. OTOH, if you think I did or tried to do something to you ASK me, I am always straight up with people. I never try to hurt my loved ones and frankly it hurts when they find a reason to think I have or would.

I may be rambling now.

LOL We have a lot in common. Confrontations mess with me. I shake, I puke, I get headaches, etc. I avoid them like the plague. I'm also loyal to a fault, as in it's a fault. I put up with shit long after I should have, because I'm way too loyal. What pisses me off is when people (a) assume I'm mad at them, but don't ask or (b) get mad at me and don't tell me.

I'm a very upfront person. I don't beat around the bush, I rarely lie, and I ususally say it like I see it. If I'm mad at a person, they'll know. I don't assume that people can read my mind and on the flip side I get PISSED when they think I should. My mother and I didn't talk for four months cause she got pissed at a lack of communication. I told her something, and she didn't hear it (her hearing's not so hot). I did not apologize, nor will I, because their is no way for me to know what she hears and doesn't hear unless she says 'what, I didn't catch that'. If she can't hear me, it's her responsibility to tell me, period.

The same with anyone else. If I'm pissing you/them off, and you don't tell me - or you wait until you're so pissed off/hurt that you explode, as far as I'm concerned you're the one who fucked up by not being honest with me in the first place. I'll apologize for hurting them, but beyond that it's their problem for expecting me to know what's going on without some information from them. (These are all general yous and thems and not directed at anyone in this thread.)

 

[A Desert Rose]

I had an admission last night. She is 66 years old, weighs about 78 pounds and is about 4 feet 10 inches tall and was in narcotic withdrawl, not to mention all the things that go with that like malnutrition, gastric problems, mental deterioration.

Such a lovely sight to behold.

Both of my aides last night are young, and inexperienced. Very new to the job.

This patient called us all every filthy name you can imagine, yelling in the hallway that we were "tearing her apart", spit on us and tried to bite, scratch and kick, as well as tried to throw herself on the floor.

One of my aides came to me and said "she called me this awful thing and look where she tried to twist my arm and she tried to spit on me."

I told her that "in 5 days you won't believe this is the same woman. This is not personal and you can't take it that way. She has no idea what she's doing or why or to whom. It's her syndrome in charge, not her. And she's not been in charge for a very long time."

A good example of not internalizing and taking personal actions that you have no control over and are not responsible for. It's easy to take on the behavior and try to make it right but in this kind of case, you can't. We are not responsible for the actions of others, especially when those actions are caused by years of physical abuse.

However, when I found her digging through the trash on my med cart, even my fustration level started to mount.

I didn't like her so well last night but I'm sure in a week she will be a lovely woman.

There's no need to forgive this behavior because it was all out of her control.

 

[graceanne]

I had an admission last night. She is 66 years old, weighs about 78 pounds and is about 4 feet 10 inches tall and was in narcotic withdrawl, not to mention all the things that go with that like malnutrition, gastric problems, mental deterioration.

Such a lovely sight to behold.

Both of my aides last night are young, and inexperienced. Very new to the job.

This patient called us all every filthy name you can imagine, yelling in the hallway that we were "tearing her apart", spit on us and tried to bite, scratch and kick, as well as tried to throw herself on the floor.

One of my aides came to me and said "she called me this awful thing and look where she tried to twist my arm and she tried to spit on me."

I told her that "in 5 days you won't believe this is the same woman. This is not personal and you can't take it that way. She has no idea what she's doing or why or to whom. It's her syndrome in charge, not her. And she's not been in charge for a very long time."

A good example of not internalizing and taking personal actions that you have no control over and are not responsible for. It's easy to take on the behavior and try to make it right but in this kind of case, you can't. We are not responsible for the actions of others, especially when those actions are caused by years of physical abuse.

However, when I found her digging through the trash on my med cart, even my fustration level started to mount.

I didn't like her so well last night but I'm sure in a week she will be a lovely woman.

There's no need to forgive this behavior because it was all out of her control.

When I was working as a CNA at a nursing home I was undressing this sweet little old lady and trying to put her in her pj's, and OMG! She started screaming and cussing like a sailor. Starled the crap out of me. I was new there, turns out she's always like that and they just let her sleep in her clothes. I was a bit startled, but not upset, and the nurse said something along the same lines to me which was not to be angry with her, she's just senile. I knew that, and wasn't angry, but one things for sure - don't go into nursing or CNA work if you are gonna take everything personally.

 

[Recidiva]

You are absolutely right.

I'm just selfish enough to want the whole incident as cleaned up as I can get it before I walk away. That way the next time I see them at the pool or something we can be cool and I won't get knots in my stomach.

LOL.

Online I'm much more apt to speak up when I see someone who consistently acts like a jerk wad. I get more pissed when people I care about are targeted or just from rudeness for no reason. I'm still pretty non confrontational but sometimes I get in a mood or something and let it fly a bit.

People rarely misbehave in person with me.

It's part luck and part calculation that I lead a very non-confrontational real life. I work at home, all my business contacts are long distance, there's no social aspect. I can navigate all the personalities and over time I've gained a lot of respect. The owner of the company I work for has promised me a job as long as he has a company.

I don't really have any social or business pressure to deal with, my kids are beyond the tantrum stage and are fun to be around, and my husband's the most reasonable person I've ever met. The most we ever argue is...well, I can't even recall the last time we argued.

Most people don't misbehave around me either. Usually after a few attempts at any skirmish I'll get some sort of comment in the lines of "I have no idea why more people aren't afraid of you" or a perennial favorite "Remind me never to fuck with you."

 

[Recidiva]

LOL We have a lot in common. Confrontations mess with me. I shake, I puke, I get headaches, etc. I avoid them like the plague. I'm also loyal to a fault, as in it's a fault. I put up with shit long after I should have, because I'm way too loyal. What pisses me off is when people (a) assume I'm mad at them, but don't ask or (b) get mad at me and don't tell me.

I'm a very upfront person. I don't beat around the bush, I rarely lie, and I ususally say it like I see it. If I'm mad at a person, they'll know. I don't assume that people can read my mind and on the flip side I get PISSED when they think I should. My mother and I didn't talk for four months cause she got pissed at a lack of communication. I told her something, and she didn't hear it (her hearing's not so hot). I did not apologize, nor will I, because their is no way for me to know what she hears and doesn't hear unless she says 'what, I didn't catch that'. If she can't hear me, it's her responsibility to tell me, period.

The same with anyone else. If I'm pissing you/them off, and you don't tell me - or you wait until you're so pissed off/hurt that you explode, as far as I'm concerned you're the one who fucked up by not being honest with me in the first place. I'll apologize for hurting them, but beyond that it's their problem for expecting me to know what's going on without some information from them. (These are all general yous and thems and not directed at anyone in this thread.)

This is a big deal for me too. My mom raised us all on the "you have to be psychic to survive" tenet. We all had to be completely tuned to what my mother wanted, predict it and provide for it. She was only happy (her version of happy, which was not acting out) when the entire environment and all people in it catered to her.

If you watched "The Devil Wears Prada" you get the idea. Except you're kids and you can't just leave. You're not getting a salary or business credentials.

I can't tolerate this behavior in any form. I don't care if you want me to read your mind, I need you to tell me, ask me, and make it clear. Although I'm extraordinarily talented at picking up emotional signals, I don't want to any more. And if I do, I want it to benefit me, and not be expected. TELL ME.

 

[graceanne]

This is a big deal for me too. My mom raised us all on the "you have to be psychic to survive" tenet. We all had to be completely tuned to what my mother wanted, predict it and provide for it. She was only happy (her version of happy, which was not acting out) when the entire environment and all people in it catered to her.

If you watched "The Devil Wears Prada" you get the idea. Except you're kids and you can't just leave. You're not getting a salary or business credentials.

I can't tolerate this behavior in any form. I don't care if you want me to read your mind, I need you to tell me, ask me, and make it clear. Although I'm extraordinarily talented at picking up emotional signals, I don't want to any more. And if I do, I want it to benefit me, and not be expected. TELL ME.

Yeah, that's my mom. You had to pick up on the moods and they changed quickly. She'll tell you she has 'control issues' which is her excuse for being a controlling person. Everything in her universe has to be doing what she wants it to do. The problem always was she changes her mind about what she wants so quickly that you can't always keep up.

 

[Recidiva]

Yeah, that's my mom. You had to pick up on the moods and they changed quickly. She'll tell you she has 'control issues' which is her excuse for being a controlling person. Everything in her universe has to be doing what she wants it to do. The problem always was she changes her mind about what she wants so quickly that you can't always keep up.

Seeing Meryl Streep in "The Devil Wears Prada" or Glenn Close in "The Stepford Wives" isn't entertainment so much as a character study.

I think I actually had to leave the room during "The Stepford Wives" because of the flashback value.

 

[graceanne]

Seeing Meryl Streep in "The Devil Wears Prada" or Glenn Close in "The Stepford Wives" isn't entertainment so much as a character study.

I think I actually had to leave the room during "The Stepford Wives" because of the flashback value.

There are songs that glorify moodiness and the bug the crap out of me. Like Garth Brooks

'She's sun and rain, she's fire and ice
A little crazy but it's nice
And when she gets mad, you best leave her alone
'Cause she'll rage just like a river
Then she'll beg you to forgive her
She's every woman that I've ever known.'

or their's another - I'm drawing a blank where the singer sings about what a bitch she is, but he loves her anyway or something like that. Of course he doesn't say she's a bitch, just something about laughing while he bleeds.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Shades of what I do daily.

My empathy for you ADR and I know you full well understand the dynamics of such things. With the clientele I work with I have began to understand that my middle name is cunt. I hold none of them responsible but even then armed with the ability to do battle with counter transference I still at times need to call on a little forgiveness.

I had an admission last night. She is 66 years old, weighs about 78 pounds and is about 4 feet 10 inches tall and was in narcotic withdrawl, not to mention all the things that go with that like malnutrition, gastric problems, mental deterioration.

Such a lovely sight to behold.

Both of my aides last night are young, and inexperienced. Very new to the job.

This patient called us all every filthy name you can imagine, yelling in the hallway that we were "tearing her apart", spit on us and tried to bite, scratch and kick, as well as tried to throw herself on the floor.

One of my aides came to me and said "she called me this awful thing and look where she tried to twist my arm and she tried to spit on me."

I told her that "in 5 days you won't believe this is the same woman. This is not personal and you can't take it that way. She has no idea what she's doing or why or to whom. It's her syndrome in charge, not her. And she's not been in charge for a very long time."

A good example of not internalizing and taking personal actions that you have no control over and are not responsible for. It's easy to take on the behavior and try to make it right but in this kind of case, you can't. We are not responsible for the actions of others, especially when those actions are caused by years of physical abuse.

However, when I found her digging through the trash on my med cart, even my fustration level started to mount.

I didn't like her so well last night but I'm sure in a week she will be a lovely woman.

There's no need to forgive this behavior because it was all out of her control.

 

[Recidiva]

There are songs that glorify moodiness and the bug the crap out of me. Like Garth Brooks

'She's sun and rain, she's fire and ice
A little crazy but it's nice
And when she gets mad, you best leave her alone
'Cause she'll rage just like a river
Then she'll beg you to forgive her
She's every woman that I've ever known.'

or their's another - I'm drawing a blank where the singer sings about what a bitch she is, but he loves her anyway or something like that. Of course he doesn't say she's a bitch, just something about laughing while he bleeds.

Billy Joel - "She's Always A Woman" and "Stiletto"

 

[graceanne]

Billy Joel - "She's Always A Woman" and "Stiletto"

LOL That's it! The first one, I was about to lose my mind trying to think of it. It was just on the tip of my tongue! Anyway, enough hijacking on this subject. lol

 

[catalina_francisco]

I had an admission last night. She is 66 years old, weighs about 78 pounds and is about 4 feet 10 inches tall and was in narcotic withdrawl, not to mention all the things that go with that like malnutrition, gastric problems, mental deterioration.

Such a lovely sight to behold.

Both of my aides last night are young, and inexperienced. Very new to the job.

This patient called us all every filthy name you can imagine, yelling in the hallway that we were "tearing her apart", spit on us and tried to bite, scratch and kick, as well as tried to throw herself on the floor.

One of my aides came to me and said "she called me this awful thing and look where she tried to twist my arm and she tried to spit on me."

I told her that "in 5 days you won't believe this is the same woman. This is not personal and you can't take it that way. She has no idea what she's doing or why or to whom. It's her syndrome in charge, not her. And she's not been in charge for a very long time."

A good example of not internalizing and taking personal actions that you have no control over and are not responsible for. It's easy to take on the behavior and try to make it right but in this kind of case, you can't. We are not responsible for the actions of others, especially when those actions are caused by years of physical abuse.

However, when I found her digging through the trash on my med cart, even my fustration level started to mount.

I didn't like her so well last night but I'm sure in a week she will be a lovely woman.

There's no need to forgive this behavior because it was all out of her control.

Beautifully put ADR.

Catalina

 

[EmpressFi]

I had an admission last night. She is 66 years old, weighs about 78 pounds and is about 4 feet 10 inches tall and was in narcotic withdrawl, not to mention all the things that go with that like malnutrition, gastric problems, mental deterioration.

Such a lovely sight to behold.

Both of my aides last night are young, and inexperienced. Very new to the job.

This patient called us all every filthy name you can imagine, yelling in the hallway that we were "tearing her apart", spit on us and tried to bite, scratch and kick, as well as tried to throw herself on the floor.

One of my aides came to me and said "she called me this awful thing and look where she tried to twist my arm and she tried to spit on me."

I told her that "in 5 days you won't believe this is the same woman. This is not personal and you can't take it that way. She has no idea what she's doing or why or to whom. It's her syndrome in charge, not her. And she's not been in charge for a very long time."

A good example of not internalizing and taking personal actions that you have no control over and are not responsible for. It's easy to take on the behavior and try to make it right but in this kind of case, you can't. We are not responsible for the actions of others, especially when those actions are caused by years of physical abuse.

However, when I found her digging through the trash on my med cart, even my fustration level started to mount.

I didn't like her so well last night but I'm sure in a week she will be a lovely woman.

There's no need to forgive this behavior because it was all out of her control.

Ahh memories.

when I first started working as an RN... long before I burned out... I had a patient who was on a ventilator. The medications made her loopy and bitchy as hell.. maybe part of it was her personality.. but most of it was the meds.

But one day she called me in and I was trying to figure out what she needed when she dug her claws into one of my arms with one hand and stabbed my other arm with her fork with the other.

It would have been so easy to hate her as I ended up in the ER getting wounds cleaned and a tetanus shot.. but I couldnt hold it against her. Doesnt mean I forgot.. obviously.. but I had to go right back upstairs and finish my shift.. and that included going right back into that room to do trach and vent care...

 

[Homburg]

I love ADR and I'll abide by her rules. I'm not continuing to bicker if she finds it upsetting..

That's why I piped down. While I'd happily continue to chew on him, I like and respect ADR.

 

[sexycaz22]

When the light bulb goes on, it finally blinds you, huh? I understand exactly what you're talking about. The part about apologizing for being "moody" really hit home for me. I've done the same thing, many times myself.

This last week I've spent a lot of time wishing in hindsight... If I'd done this thing instead of that.. if I'd just said this instead of not saying that... But if I had had the foresight at the time to do things in the perfect way that hindsight provides, where would I be now?

I think in a worse place, actually.

The funny thing is, if the light bulb have not came on in my mind, on how she treated me like shit and if we haven't fallen out, I don't think I would be able to explore the true me, I think she would be making me feel guilty and would be ribbing the submissive / kinky side in me, and I don't think I would be posting and replying to your post, Rose.

That's my worse place...have been there and finally got out of there....thank god!

I am more happier and feeling like the more true me, now that she is out of my life...well kinda....I still see her around, and talk with her, making small talk but not the same as before.

 

[A Desert Rose]

That's why I piped down. While I'd happily continue to chew on him, I like and respect ADR.

Know what? I've become some kind of whiney baby and I'm sorry. I look back on those posts and I'm whining whining whining.

I'm in the middle of my chemo for this month... so never mind my little forays into whiney-rantsville. I really do get overly emotional and then I'm all embarrassed and stuff... like i am right now.

 

[Homburg]

Pfft, you did not sound whiny to me, more exasperated. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[graceanne]

I didn't read whiney, either. You're being too hard on yourself.

 

[myinnerslut]

i havnt been on lit in the past few days do to the high holidays (im jewish), therefore i missed the majority of many threads that havebeen active for these past few days, including this one, so forgive me if i stumble over something that has already been discussed.

today was, for me, the holiest day of the year. yom kippur. also called the day of atonment. forgivness is the topic of the day. forgiving others for what they have done to us, and in turn being forgiven for things we have done to them.

i attended a meditation on forgivness this afternoon in between two of the multiple services that i attended today. in it we discussed ideas such as forgiving someone for thier sake vs. forgiving somone for our own sake.

while at first glance this last type of forgivness may seem selfish or meaningless, it is the type of forgivness that applies to major offenses. for example, i believe someone mentioned that they could not forgive someone who murdered thier child. in this case, forgiving that person for your own sake, while it may take time to do, is almost neccessary to kwwp from being poisened from the inside out over lack of forgivness. now, this does nto mean what that person did is ok, but in this case forgivness is a mean to let go of the anger and hatred that can stem out of horrible acts.

i just felt that this realization about the nature of forgivness, at least in this way which i hadnt taken much time to really consider before, was worth sharing.