Forgiveness

[CutieMouse]

CUTIEMOUSE

Tyrants come in two forms.

The first is an individual who uses his power to silence everyone.

The second is the group that uses its power to silence the individual.

Oh I get it... you're just a poor oppressed innocent soul beaten down by "the man", when you'd rather be the tyrant making the rest of us shut the fuck up. Like I said... bombastic and boorish.

Mr. Johnson, you have every right to post to the forums, as Lit is a Free Speech zone; however, the flip side of that is that the members of the forum are equally free to find fault with your behaviour. The fact that good conversations are disrupted in the process, is sad.

 

[Recidiva]

Oh I get it... you're just a poor oppressed innocent soul beaten down by "the man", when you'd rather be the tyrant making the rest of us shut the fuck up. Like I said... bombastic and boorish.

Mr. Johnson, you have every right to post to the forums, as Lit is a Free Speech zone; however, the flip side of that is that the members of the forum are equally free to find fault with your behaviour. The fact that good conversations are disrupted in the process, is sad.

It does however give you a practical opportunity to apply anything learned in this thread.

Any irritation gained here can be put in perspective. Does it really matter that someone on a forum made an attempt to insult you? Do you have to take the insult? Do you choose to accept insult?

Will anyone here remember or care in five years? If so, why not skip the time period and let it go now?

 

[FurryFury]

Are you just being a dick, or are you an idiot?

He is clearly both.

But what makes you crazy is you have no arguments or evidence to refute anything I post. All you can do is curse me. In Debate 101 that spells LOSER.

You know what really spells loser? Thinking that your arguments" or "evidence" are actually strong when they are so pathetic and ignorant, as are you apparently, that no one cares or bothers to refute them.

What do we care about? People not being constant shit heads to others here.

I could forgive this if you truly wanted to change and your writing showed it. LMAO. Like that's going to happen.

Now back to the thread.

Last night I was thinking. There have been a few times when I asked for forgiveness from people because I wanted them to stop hating on me. I didn't feel I'd done anything wrong but it still bothered me that they had twisted it up in their minds and held a grudge. After they forgave me, I was relieved but I'll never again be able to trust their judgement when I know they can blow something up over nothing like that.

Has anyone else ever done this or felt that way?

 

[sexycaz22]

It does however give you a practical opportunity to apply anything learned in this thread.

Any irritation gained here can be put in perspective. Does it really matter that someone on a forum made an attempt to insult you? Do you have to take the insult? Do you choose to accept insult?

Will anyone here remember or care in five years? If so, why not skip the time period and let it go now?

I do agree with you, Recidiva...however, I do find this particular person very rude and hijacks the thread with his ramblings, as I feel the topic is very interesting, and now I feel for Rose, who wanted to share her thoughts with the rest of us, and this particular person spoiled it with his silly and insulting posts. I do not find them very funny, and I find his posts very rude at times, and although he did make some good point in some of them, he did them in a insulting way, and I don't think, like some other people, don't like that very much.

So, but for myself, I simply ignore this particular person and his posts, but since Rose made her last post, I felt I had to intervene and let her know that I felt exactly the same as her, and to give her some cyber hugs too!

 

[sexycaz22]

Last night I was thinking. There have been a few times when I asked for forgiveness from people because I wanted them to stop hating on me. I didn't feel I'd done anything wrong but it still bothered me that they had twisted it up in their minds and held a grudge. After they forgave me, I was relieved but I'll never again be able to trust their judgement when I know they can blow something up over nothing like that.

Has anyone else ever done this or felt that way?

Yep, I have done this so many times, and felt the same way as you. Again, with the same friend who treated me like shit, for years, I let her treat me like shit, and often I apologised to her for being "moody" with her and lose my temper with her, and at the time, I thought I have done wrong. However, now, I looked back and realised that she have been treating me like shit all along and that I have had a right to lose my temper etc with her. I only wish I could have realised that earlier and therefore, I would save all this upset and hassle at Christmas time. Funnily enough, soon after our massive fallout, a couple of friends came forward and told me that they thought she were treating me like shit, and encouraged me to not let her do it again to me!

 

[Recidiva]

I do agree with you, Recidiva...however, I do find this particular person very rude and hijacks the thread with his ramblings, as I feel the topic is very interesting, and now I feel for Rose, who wanted to share her thoughts with the rest of us, and this particular person spoiled it with his silly and insulting posts. I do not find them very funny, and I find his posts very rude at times, and although he did make some good point in some of them, he did them in a insulting way, and I don't think, like some other people, don't like that very much.

So, but for myself, I simply ignore this particular person and his posts, but since Rose made her last post, I felt I had to intervene and let her know that I felt exactly the same as her, and to give her some cyber hugs too!

I love ADR and I'll abide by her rules. I'm not continuing to bicker if she finds it upsetting.

For me, I expect hijacking. Hijacking's part of the fun of coming here. I suppose if I felt much differently, I'd be at a PTA meeting instead.

I suppose other people put much more of a social spin on things here, as if it were to meet some town hall meeting where everyone follows an agenda or they're out of order or their mike is cut off while they get tasered? (yes, that happened lately, so I hear)

I don't. I am aware that the nature of this place is much more like tennis. I try to answer every serve, even if it's aimed at my head or pretty much otherwise out of bounds. I like to work on my swing.

 

[FurryFury]

Sometimes the way people start hating on you when you've done nothing but be nice and supported them shocks the shit out of me. I want to put the issues to rest but, yep, we are done when that happens. I won't be blindsided by being hated on for no real reason by a "friend" again.

I may get their forgiveness. I may forgive them. What I won't do is leave myself open again to that crap.

 

[Recidiva]

Last night I was thinking. There have been a few times when I asked for forgiveness from people because I wanted them to stop hating on me. I didn't feel I'd done anything wrong but it still bothered me that they had twisted it up in their minds and held a grudge. After they forgave me, I was relieved but I'll never again be able to trust their judgement when I know they can blow something up over nothing like that.

Has anyone else ever done this or felt that way?

I've led a pretty confrontational life, I think. I expect people to hate me.

However, the few times I've done real wrong in my mind, which would be in a context of mismanaging a shared resource or making a bad decision, business or personal, I tend to take action to make up the damage. I suppose that's associated with being 12-steppy, but for me it's usually prompt and takes the form of action.

Words and expectation mean very little to me, I respect actions. I don't ask someone's forgiveness unless I think I've earned it through action.

As for people doing me wrong, I try not to change them. If I make clear I feel wounded, and they don't care, I think it's best to get out of their orbit, as they'll keep doing it no matter what I say. Over time I've become less and less wounded by someone else's actions.

There's a book that said it better than I can:

"The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz:

Be Impeccable With Your Word: Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

Don't Take Anything Personally: Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.

Don't Make Assumptions: Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness, and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

Always Do Your Best: Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse, and regret.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Oh I get it... you're just a poor oppressed innocent soul beaten down by "the man", when you'd rather be the tyrant making the rest of us shut the fuck up. Like I said... bombastic and boorish.

Mr. Johnson, you have every right to post to the forums, as Lit is a Free Speech zone; however, the flip side of that is that the members of the forum are equally free to find fault with your behaviour. The fact that good conversations are disrupted in the process, is sad.

Thank you.

And to you know who you are:
It appears the goal here is to disrupt a good and interesting dialog with bullshit posturing. And it's not just this thread. I've seen it done over and over lately. This just happened to be my thread and a topic that means a lot to me. I hope you can go away today feeling real good about lousing something up for me. If that was your goal, you have accomplished it.

I'm done talking to you, sir. You have every right to post whatever you want, wherever you want. You will continue to bait, hook and reel 'em in on other threads too. Personally, I am not interested in battling wits with you. I concede, you are smarter than I. Any potential future argument/discussion/debate would go to you, by default.

In other words, YOU WIN.

Now, that frees me up to talk to people who actually want to carry on a discussion about something - anything - that does not involve you as the center of the FUCKING universe.

GOOOD BYYYYE.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Yep, I have done this so many times, and felt the same way as you. Again, with the same friend who treated me like shit, for years, I let her treat me like shit, and often I apologised to her for being "moody" with her and lose my temper with her, and at the time, I thought I have done wrong. However, now, I looked back and realised that she have been treating me like shit all along and that I have had a right to lose my temper etc with her. I only wish I could have realised that earlier and therefore, I would save all this upset and hassle at Christmas time. Funnily enough, soon after our massive fallout, a couple of friends came forward and told me that they thought she were treating me like shit, and encouraged me to not let her do it again to me!

When the light bulb goes on, it finally blinds you, huh? I understand exactly what you're talking about. The part about apologizing for being "moody" really hit home for me. I've done the same thing, many times myself.

This last week I've spent a lot of time wishing in hindsight... If I'd done this thing instead of that.. if I'd just said this instead of not saying that... But if I had had the foresight at the time to do things in the perfect way that hindsight provides, where would I be now?

I think in a worse place, actually.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I love ADR and I'll abide by her rules. I'm not continuing to bicker if she finds it upsetting.

For me, I expect hijacking. Hijacking's part of the fun of coming here. I suppose if I felt much differently, I'd be at a PTA meeting instead.

I suppose other people put much more of a social spin on things here, as if it were to meet some town hall meeting where everyone follows an agenda or they're out of order or their mike is cut off while they get tasered? (yes, that happened lately, so I hear)

I don't. I am aware that the nature of this place is much more like tennis. I try to answer every serve, even if it's aimed at my head or pretty much otherwise out of bounds. I like to work on my swing.

I expect hijacking too, I said already that I never expected that everyone temper their posts to only what I said in post #1. Threads do take on a life of their own. I know that. I expect that to happen and many times it's a real cool thing when it does.

But there comes a point when you've lost page after page to this one-ups-manship bullshit and then any meaning to the thread becomes completely lost.

People don't want to wade their post after post of crap that is uninteresting to them to find the nugget of gold. I'm not so egotistical that I want this thread to remain "top of the charts" forever. But I would like it to be interesting and thought provoking enough to allow others to weigh in with their own ideas and experiences. If they have to be met with the kind of meaningless and confrontational posting I've seen here by he who is unnamed, they won't want to post.

Didn't I read something about tyrants who silence others? Couldn't that possibly be by intimidation also?

I love you, too Dolly!

 

[graceanne]

Sometimes the way people start hating on you when you've done nothing but be nice and supported them shocks the shit out of me. I want to put the issues to rest but, yep, we are done when that happens. I won't be blindsided by being hated on for no real reason by a "friend" again.

I may get their forgiveness. I may forgive them. What I won't do is leave myself open again to that crap.

My mother was always making me apologize for things I didn't do. Now it just pisses me off, and I won't apologize for things I haven't done EVER. I get down right stubborn about those things. I was grounded to my room for a week shortly before turning 18, cause mom was sure I'd done something and I hadn't and wasn't going to apologize.

 

[Recidiva]

I expect hijacking too, I said already that I never expected that everyone temper their posts to only what I said in post #1. Threads do take on a life of their own. I know that. I expect that to happen and many times it's a real cool thing when it does.

But there comes a point when you've lost page after page to this one-ups-manship bullshit and then any meaning to the thread becomes completely lost.

People don't want to wade their post after post of crap that is uninteresting to them to find the nugget of gold. I'm not so egotistical that I want this thread to remain "top of the charts" forever. But I would like it to be interesting and thought provoking enough to allow others to weigh in with their own ideas and experiences. If they have to be met with the kind of meaningless and confrontational posting I've seen here by he who is unnamed, they won't want to post.

Didn't I read something about tyrants who silence others? Couldn't that possibly be by intimidation also?

I love you, too Dolly!

I think you're entirely much sweeter than I am, and when someone's making a fuss, you want them to be comfortable, as you're the hostess, and you feel responsible. I do not assume it's about me, it couldn't possibly be about you. You're identifying with the content in a way you can't control, but you still try, and that I understand. It's good manners to your bones.

I suppose I don't think anything I have to say is of interest...I'm the bullshit you have to wade through.

Your concerns, contributions and standards are higher minded than mine. Not surprising!

It's a fairly common conceit that being asked to "hush" please, is a sign of being suppressed by "The Man" or "The Woman" or "The Torch Waving Mob"

Again, he's in jammies, now it's not ninjas, it's the villagers out to get him. To me it's small and sad, and I have sympathy for small and sad people.

 

[graceanne]

For me, I expect hijacking. Hijacking's part of the fun of coming here. I suppose if I felt much differently, I'd be at a PTA meeting instead.

What's wrong with PTA meetings? You know, other than the cattiness and snottiness and all that.

Know what PTA stands for? Part-time assholes. That said, I have a meeting coming up. *sigh* Goody joy.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ROSE ET AL

Go back and see who threw the first fistful of shit. I just did. I was thinking maybe I said something inappropriate in my initial posts, and maybe an apology was due from me. But it werent me who threw it.

ROSE

If you believe that your friends can curse me because they feel like doing it, youre mistaken. And the quickest way to stop all the shit is to not start it, and let your pals do as they please.

 

[Recidiva]

What's wrong with PTA meetings? You know, other than the cattiness and snottiness and all that.

Know what PTA stands for? Part-time assholes. That said, I have a meeting coming up. *sigh* Goody joy.

My mom was the president of the board of education. Oh my. Here is refined.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I've led a pretty confrontational life, I think. I expect people to hate me.

However, the few times I've done real wrong in my mind, which would be in a context of mismanaging a shared resource or making a bad decision, business or personal, I tend to take action to make up the damage. I suppose that's associated with being 12-steppy, but for me it's usually prompt and takes the form of action.

Words and expectation mean very little to me, I respect actions. I don't ask someone's forgiveness unless I think I've earned it through action.

As for people doing me wrong, I try not to change them. If I make clear I feel wounded, and they don't care, I think it's best to get out of their orbit, as they'll keep doing it no matter what I say. Over time I've become less and less wounded by someone else's actions.

There's a book that said it better than I can:

"The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz:

Be Impeccable With Your Word: Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

Don't Take Anything Personally: Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.

Don't Make Assumptions: Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness, and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

Always Do Your Best: Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse, and regret.

I really like this philosophy. I really really do. Thank you for posting it.

It reminded me a little of the 4 Way Test in Rotary:

The 4-Way Test of the things we think, say or do:

Is it the truth?
Is it fair to all concerned?
Will it build goodwill and better friendships?
Will it be beneficial to all concerned?

Arguments can be made against every one of those test questions. But I think in most cases, the good outweighs anything else.

 

[graceanne]

ROSE ET AL

Go back and see who threw the first fistful of shit. I just did. I was thinking maybe I said something inappropriate in my initial posts, and maybe an apology was due from me. But it werent me who threw it.

ROSE

If you believe that your friends can curse me because they feel like doing it, youre mistaken. And the quickest way to stop all the shit is to not start it, and let your pals do as they please.

Um, I can curse you if I feel like it, and more importantly you can't do anything about it.

I'm not gonna, cause I don't want to add to your persecution complex, and frankly I don't put that much energy into trolls. But nonetheless I can do anything I want.

 

[Recidiva]

I really like this philosophy. I really really do. Thank you for posting it.

It reminded me a little of the 4 Way Test in Rotary:

The 4-Way Test of the things we think, say or do:

Is it the truth?
Is it fair to all concerned?
Will it build goodwill and better friendships?
Will it be beneficial to all concerned?

Arguments can be made against every one of those test questions. But I think in most cases, the good outweighs anything else.

Yes, I think the point about not taking it personally is the hardest for me to enact, but the more I remind myself "it's not about me..." the more I gain enough distance and perspective to realize...it's absolutely true. It's my own ego wanting to get in there and be important.

 

[graceanne]

Yes, I think the point about not taking it personally is the hardest for me to enact, but the more I remind myself "it's not about me..." the more I gain enough distance and perspective to realize...it's absolutely true. It's my own ego wanting to get in there and be important.

Reminding myself that it's not about me actually will help me not get angry, quite often. I might choose to avoid that person, but I believe that 90% of the time I've been hurt the other person either didn't mean to, or didn't even realize that I'd been hurt. quite often it's more about selfishness than anything.

 

[A Desert Rose]

If I could just read "I'm sorry that I was party to taking your thread off on a tangent that was entirely unrelated to the topic", I think I could forgive that.


LOL

What I actually read is "I relish the idea of fucking up something that you have been struggling with trying to understand and work into your life".

Yes, Recidiva... I'm taking something personally and I know I should not.

 

[Recidiva]

Reminding myself that it's not about me actually will help me not get angry, quite often. I might choose to avoid that person, but I believe that 90% of the time I've been hurt the other person either didn't mean to, or didn't even realize that I'd been hurt. quite often it's more about selfishness than anything.

Absolutely. And practicing that enough, I got to see that I was much more interested in being right, than being happy. Now I've got a good balance, so that I'm not determined to be right, and I'm free to be happy and hold my own space without feeling that everyone's trying to push me off my center.

 

[FurryFury]

My mother was always making me apologize for things I didn't do. Now it just pisses me off, and I won't apologize for things I haven't done EVER. I get down right stubborn about those things. I was grounded to my room for a week shortly before turning 18, cause mom was sure I'd done something and I hadn't and wasn't going to apologize.

I know what you mean. My childhood caregivers were like that. I said I was sorry to survive sometimes even when I wasn't.

A while back someone on this thread said, they knew someone who would never really apologize but would say, I'm sorry you got upset, instead of I'm sorry for what I did. That's what I was thinking in my mind. I knew it was all bullshit at the time.

With my ex, I got in the habit of saying I was sorry about everything. It drives my current husband a bit NUTS when I do that now. LOL!

Of course with my ex I was often thinking, I'm sorry you are such a damn jerk.

LMAO.

Again, I can think mean and act nice if I need to.

 

[Recidiva]

If I could just read "I'm sorry that I was party to taking your thread off on a tangent that was entirely unrelated to the topic", I think I could forgive that.


LOL

What I actually read is "I relish the idea of fucking up something that you have been struggling with trying to understand and work into your life".

Yes, Recidiva... I'm taking something personally and I know I should not.

"I'm sorry that I was party to taking your thread off on a tangent that was entirely unrelated to the topic."

In my defense, it was all part of exhibiting behavior that you can easily choose to forgive and it costs nothing

 

[graceanne]

I know what you mean. My childhood caregivers were like that. I said I was sorry to survive sometimes even when I wasn't.

A while back someone on this thread said, they knew someone who would never really apologize but would say, I'm sorry you got upset, instead of I'm sorry for what I did. That's what I was thinking in my mind. I knew it was all bullshit at the time.

With my ex, I got in the habit of saying I was sorry about everything. It drives my current husband a bit NUTS when I do that now. LOL!

Of course with my ex I was often thinking, I'm sorry you are such a damn jerk.

LMAO.

Again, I can think mean and act nice if I need to.

Thinking mean and acting nice is a survival technique. I can do it, too. I can smile sweetly while biting my lip to bloody bits on the inside. No one will know that I'm biting my lip, cause I'm smiling sweetly. I used to stand in front of my mom, hands over my chest, and pinch the insides of my arms hard enough to leave nasty bruises, just so that she'd never know what was going on in my mind.

As a child I apologized cause if I didn't I'd get my ass beat. As a teenager she wouldn't beat my ass, and sending me to my room for a week wasn't punishment, it was a vacation.