Fired for Dirty E-mail
- Thread starter Whispersecret
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Whispersecret
Clandestine Sex-pressionist
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2000
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- 3,089
Yowsa, GuyJD, you fire back three replies at me like I was actively arguing with you. I haven't even been here all day.
I'm going to reply, but I don't have the time to do what I usually do, which is look at the other posts and direct my comments to specific people and what they wrote. I'm just going to respond off what I remember from having just read the posts. Sorry about that.
I think that in every job/company there is a gray area of what you can and cannot do. At Dow, I think that the employees thought they knew what had been acceptable, but the management changed the rules overnight.
Also, they may have signed their agreements decades ago, when e-mail wasn't even invented.
I agree that it was stupid thing to do. However, the employees still, based on their long-standing history with their company, deserved a warning. I don't think we're going to convince each other.
I'm going to reply, but I don't have the time to do what I usually do, which is look at the other posts and direct my comments to specific people and what they wrote. I'm just going to respond off what I remember from having just read the posts. Sorry about that.
I think that in every job/company there is a gray area of what you can and cannot do. At Dow, I think that the employees thought they knew what had been acceptable, but the management changed the rules overnight.
Also, they may have signed their agreements decades ago, when e-mail wasn't even invented.
I agree that it was stupid thing to do. However, the employees still, based on their long-standing history with their company, deserved a warning. I don't think we're going to convince each other.
GuyJD
"Simply.....the best"
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2000
- Posts
- 4,898
Whispersecret said:Yowsa, GuyJD, you fire back three replies at me like I was actively arguing with you. I haven't even been here all day.
I'm going to reply, but I don't have the time to do what I usually do, which is look at the other posts and direct my comments to specific people and what they wrote. I'm just going to respond off what I remember from having just read the posts. Sorry about that.
I think that in every job/company there is a gray area of what you can and cannot do. At Dow, I think that the employees thought they knew what had been acceptable, but the management changed the rules overnight.
Also, they may have signed their agreements decades ago, when e-mail wasn't even invented.
I wasn't only responding to your posts WS but to the post of several others. Look a little closer and you'll see that myself, Madame Pandora, and Siren made some great points to that matter.
The fact of the matter is, whether the policy is read and signed 10 minutes, days, weeks, or years ago...it doesn't matter. When you break the rule, the employer won't tell you, "Well, this is a decade old rule so I'll let you go with it." Hell, 20 years ago, you could slap a woman on the ass at your job and everyone would laugh. Today, you'll lose your job and may even find yourself in jail and/or court if you treat a female coworker that way.
[Edited by GuyJD on 02-01-2001 at 04:48 PM]
Madame Pandora
Deliciously Aware of Impending Sins
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2000
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- 1,627
Okay Deb....
Seeing as you and I are so rarely on opposite sides and I may NEVER have the chance again...
Come on...I betcha. Tell us the story
I'm curious
MP
Seeing as you and I are so rarely on opposite sides and I may NEVER have the chance again...
Come on...I betcha. Tell us the story
I'm curious
MP
KillerMuffin
Seraphically Disinclined
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2000
- Posts
- 25,603
You don't own your time when you're being paid for it, you're doing what your employer wants you to do. To those of us who work better in a relaxed environment, doing what we choose on company time, using company equipment, and against company policy, well, the DOW thing seems harsh.
If you stole cash, even a trivial amount, from the company, everyone would be saying that the company was justified. Well, you're stealing cash from the company. They aren't paying you to do your own thing, so you are stealing cash from the company. Why should you get a warning for stealing?
That being said, I won't work in a place that doesn't let me do my own thing. I am ten times more productive when I have more freedom than when I don't. I am permitted to work where I do and do whatever I want to on my own personal computer, using my own personal paid for connection, and their phone line, provided the other line isn't being tied up for long. In exchange, I use my puter and my connection to look for deadbeats on the net and I don't expect to ever be paid more than minimum wage.
If you stole cash, even a trivial amount, from the company, everyone would be saying that the company was justified. Well, you're stealing cash from the company. They aren't paying you to do your own thing, so you are stealing cash from the company. Why should you get a warning for stealing?
That being said, I won't work in a place that doesn't let me do my own thing. I am ten times more productive when I have more freedom than when I don't. I am permitted to work where I do and do whatever I want to on my own personal computer, using my own personal paid for connection, and their phone line, provided the other line isn't being tied up for long. In exchange, I use my puter and my connection to look for deadbeats on the net and I don't expect to ever be paid more than minimum wage.
Madame Pandora
Deliciously Aware of Impending Sins
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2000
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- 1,627
KM,
I agree with you to the wall on everything but one point. It’s a little thing, just semantic, really. But people say things like it all the time and it bugs me ;-) Sorry.
You do OWN your time no matter who you work for. The problem is if you choose to use that time for yourself, then others will hold you accountable for it.
It is all about personal responsibility. Most people I know have, from time to time, slacked here and there. Is it human? Yes. Absolutely. Part of the thing is that people are not robots. They own their own time. The will blink and breathe and occasional photocopy their butt on the office copier.
But, that slacking, however harmless, is a CHOICE. And, if you are caught not being responsible, there is no one else to blame. End of the line.
And no major corporation cares how long you've been there. Maybe once upon a time they did, but not anymore. Loyalty only exists in small business, and even then, it’s not a given. You trade loyalty and humanity for a paycheck and benefits when you work for a "Big Brother."
This is a small point to dicker...and I hope you know I'm not just ticking at you, KM. But, I hear people say all the time "my owner told me I had to" and I wince when I hear it. Sure, I know what they mean, but I always tell my employees they don't have owners, they have employers. No one owns anyone else. Not ever. Not really. "The owner of the company I work for told me I had to do this."
There is no “have to.” There are choices we would rather not make, but they are not absolutes.
I once had a client whose favorite term was "have to." And I wouldn't respond to him until he corrected himself. You'd be AMAZED how much something small like that will adjust someone with a bad attitude. "You have to do this," is something people say in offices all the time. I don't tolerate it. Whenever I leave a company, you can be assured the term is never used. It quickly turns into "I need you to address this, please." Oh course, if they are laughing...jumping up and down and begging "you have to do this, you have to do this..." normally I cave ;-)
And “I have to do this.” Is just as bad. Tell one of my employees they “have to” do something and they will usually smile and say “I don’t have to do anything, but I will choose to do this for you.” And some of them roll their eyes, but they get the point. And more than one person has told me how important that small change in their thinking was for them. I do, on occasion have the smartass who will insist on saying “have to” just to prove to me that he/she chooses to ignore my “have to” rule. But, I figure, at least then, they are getting the point too ;-)
I know this has gotten a little off topic, but people are always so ready to blame big business for their troubles, instead of owning up to the ugly truth. The average Joe is the one who gives big business its power. We shop at Home Depot instead of the local hardware store to save a few bucks (because it adds up, you know). We buy the toys made in Taiwan which ten year old girls slave to make instead of forking over the more expensive toys made in countries where people are paid a fair wage. In this day and age, nearly every little decision we make out of convenience and want gives away a little of that power.
And it’s gotten to complex to keep track. You’d be a nut going out of your mind if you tried to make the right decision EVERY time. So you just do the best you can, and you own up to it when one bites you on the ass.
I am big on personal responsibility. I don't always do the right thing, but I do admit that I have no one to blame but myself when I fuck up. Blame is crutch and our culture just seems unable to stop leaning on it.
And I understand that. I fall into the same trap. When I see a guy on the street, I don't lecture to him about personal responsibility. I just scramble to see if I have a few bucks. It is human nature to be compassionate. To side with the little guy. To take the easy out. God help us if that ever changed.
They were fired because they broke the rules....no matter how technical those rules may have been. Should their contributions to the company have meant something? Yes. But in the eyes of a corporation, you typically trade your identity at the door for an ID badge and employee number.
If you want to feel human, take a cut in pay and go work FOR the little guy. KM is right. What you’ll trade in income, you gain in personal worth and happiness. You stand a much better chance of being appreciated. And, yeah, you will have to make lifestyle adjustments (and that is NO small thing...I'm not saying this is easily afforded to everyone). But if you want to be personalized, you work for a PERSON. Not a corporation.
There is no "have to."
No one "owns you."
Each person is accountable for their own actions. When you slide...you run the risk of not being able to stop before you crash.
Just MHO
MP
I agree with you to the wall on everything but one point. It’s a little thing, just semantic, really. But people say things like it all the time and it bugs me ;-) Sorry.
You do OWN your time no matter who you work for. The problem is if you choose to use that time for yourself, then others will hold you accountable for it.
It is all about personal responsibility. Most people I know have, from time to time, slacked here and there. Is it human? Yes. Absolutely. Part of the thing is that people are not robots. They own their own time. The will blink and breathe and occasional photocopy their butt on the office copier.
But, that slacking, however harmless, is a CHOICE. And, if you are caught not being responsible, there is no one else to blame. End of the line.
And no major corporation cares how long you've been there. Maybe once upon a time they did, but not anymore. Loyalty only exists in small business, and even then, it’s not a given. You trade loyalty and humanity for a paycheck and benefits when you work for a "Big Brother."
This is a small point to dicker...and I hope you know I'm not just ticking at you, KM. But, I hear people say all the time "my owner told me I had to" and I wince when I hear it. Sure, I know what they mean, but I always tell my employees they don't have owners, they have employers. No one owns anyone else. Not ever. Not really. "The owner of the company I work for told me I had to do this."
There is no “have to.” There are choices we would rather not make, but they are not absolutes.
I once had a client whose favorite term was "have to." And I wouldn't respond to him until he corrected himself. You'd be AMAZED how much something small like that will adjust someone with a bad attitude. "You have to do this," is something people say in offices all the time. I don't tolerate it. Whenever I leave a company, you can be assured the term is never used. It quickly turns into "I need you to address this, please." Oh course, if they are laughing...jumping up and down and begging "you have to do this, you have to do this..." normally I cave ;-)
And “I have to do this.” Is just as bad. Tell one of my employees they “have to” do something and they will usually smile and say “I don’t have to do anything, but I will choose to do this for you.” And some of them roll their eyes, but they get the point. And more than one person has told me how important that small change in their thinking was for them. I do, on occasion have the smartass who will insist on saying “have to” just to prove to me that he/she chooses to ignore my “have to” rule. But, I figure, at least then, they are getting the point too ;-)
I know this has gotten a little off topic, but people are always so ready to blame big business for their troubles, instead of owning up to the ugly truth. The average Joe is the one who gives big business its power. We shop at Home Depot instead of the local hardware store to save a few bucks (because it adds up, you know). We buy the toys made in Taiwan which ten year old girls slave to make instead of forking over the more expensive toys made in countries where people are paid a fair wage. In this day and age, nearly every little decision we make out of convenience and want gives away a little of that power.
And it’s gotten to complex to keep track. You’d be a nut going out of your mind if you tried to make the right decision EVERY time. So you just do the best you can, and you own up to it when one bites you on the ass.
I am big on personal responsibility. I don't always do the right thing, but I do admit that I have no one to blame but myself when I fuck up. Blame is crutch and our culture just seems unable to stop leaning on it.
And I understand that. I fall into the same trap. When I see a guy on the street, I don't lecture to him about personal responsibility. I just scramble to see if I have a few bucks. It is human nature to be compassionate. To side with the little guy. To take the easy out. God help us if that ever changed.
They were fired because they broke the rules....no matter how technical those rules may have been. Should their contributions to the company have meant something? Yes. But in the eyes of a corporation, you typically trade your identity at the door for an ID badge and employee number.
If you want to feel human, take a cut in pay and go work FOR the little guy. KM is right. What you’ll trade in income, you gain in personal worth and happiness. You stand a much better chance of being appreciated. And, yeah, you will have to make lifestyle adjustments (and that is NO small thing...I'm not saying this is easily afforded to everyone). But if you want to be personalized, you work for a PERSON. Not a corporation.
There is no "have to."
No one "owns you."
Each person is accountable for their own actions. When you slide...you run the risk of not being able to stop before you crash.
Just MHO
MP
Curious Guy
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2000
- Posts
- 527
I work for a very large corporation. The company covers employees yearly on policy. The simple solution is just don't do the wrong shit. It is their equipment and they are paying for my time. Plain and simple, get your own stuff and do with it what you want.
