Feminist vs Feminine

[Mischka]

Ahem. I'm also an absent-minded person.

 

[sigh]

how many days has this been going on?

and now i show up with a strong sense that there's nothing more to add, and an even stronger sense that adding anything is a fool's task at best

ah well...i've always been a fool

i'm going to sidestep the underlying issues that led to this thread because i had nothing to do with the threads where the fuse was first inflamed...i'd like to jump instead to the whole feminism vs feminine thing, and to do what our wise KM has suggested: define the terms first, because otherwise we're not speaking the same language and might as well be shouting nonsense at each other

feminist: a woman in control of herself and her life, who has managed through example, acts and words to fit into her chosen place as easily and completely as any other person, whereas in all that truly matters, her value is recognized as equal or superior to all

feminine: see feminist above, only add a skirt that'll turn heads (male and female alike), a walk that says you're lovely and proud of it, a smile that's genuine and frequent, and a wink that'll offer promise to anyone favored by its glow

i know that feminists are often blessed with a certain character and strength of commitment that puts most of us to shame, but i don't think that this personality trait is necessarily required to be a feminist...some of us struggle on a much more focused plane...my focus is my son...my goals for him require me to be a feminist as i've defined it above

have no doubt though...i love and revere the stronger of us, who led (and still lead) the way so that i can be both sorts of woman whenever the occasion, or simple desire, demands

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[lavender]

 

[sexy-girl]

i dont have time to write a definition of what i think each is yet but i will say again i am a feminist

perhaps redefinition is needed if peoples definition of a feminist doesn't include someone like me ?



also lavender for sure is a very sweet and kind person i dont pretend to know her real well but i've seen enough to know she has a good heart ... why do some people equate feminism with heartlessness or unkindness or even toughness i dont understand you can still be a wimp and be a feminist


anyway perhaps my posts will make more sense when i write my definitions ... after work though now

 

[naudiz]

I've gotten lost during huge portions of this thread, so I won't even pretend to understand what everyone is talking about, but whenever I see gender issues tossed around, I get a little confused and perturbed.

I am admittedly unenlightened. I spend most of my time inside my own head, and I have no doubt there is a whole big world out there I understand nothing about. That said, I have no idea what feminism and feminine are supposed to mean. From what I've read, I don't think these are terms with a definition upon which everyone is going to agree. To me? Neither of them mean much. Again, I'm ignorant. La.

I can see the distinction Lavender is trying to make. I think it's annoying when anyone, be they male or female, tries to come on too strong not out of sincerity but in hopes of getting a certain reaction. Whether it's a female persona saying, "I am Femmie LaPetite and I need a big strong man to take care of me!" or a male persona saying, "I am Robust McManlyPants! I need a woman to tell me how I rock her world!" I am colored unimpressed. Call it a personal preference. It smacks of trying too hard. Maybe that is the way a person really is, but it's so far from what I am that it seems unreal. Like leprechauns, only I'm not always after their Lucky Charms. Like, at all.

I have to think about this. When I stop trying and just am and I take a good look at myself, I see a person. There are breasts and a vagina, but I don't think of them as the elements that compose me any more than my hair color or eye color. I feel that if I had a penis instead, not much on the inside would change, but everything on the outside would. That's a horrifying thing; not that I define myself by the number of X chromosomes I have, but that others do.

Men don't escape this trap either. One of the saddest conversations I ever had was with a co-worker whose baby daughter was dying. We were talking about it, and he said he wasn't sure if he was allowed to cry about this. I asked him what he meant, and he said he was always taught that men didn't have the same capacity for feeling emotion as women, so he wasn't sure it was appropriate or even possible to cry about his little girl fading away day by day, but when we were talking, he had tears in his eyes. That conversation was like a kick in the stomach to me. Who would tell a man he isn't allowed to cry when he's losing his baby? How fucked up is that?

I think that it's society that defines gender roles far more than biology. I look around at our society, and I don't put much faith in what it has to say. I wear what's comfortable. If I feel like looking nice I dress up to suit my tastes. I say what's on my mind if I think it's appropriate. I express my sexuality according to levels of personal comfort. I'd rather be known for my mind than my body. I couldn't care less whether or not you think I'm pretty. Hell, I couldn't care less if Mr. Naudiz thinks I'm pretty, but he seems to so it's all good. I don't live to please him. He doesn't live to protect me. We support and nurture each other in equal parts, as individuals who happen to care a lot about each other.

Is that feminism? Is that feminine? Either/or? Neither? The problem I have with these generalizations of what it means to be a man or a woman is that the individual often ends up falling through the cracks, and when you break it down far enough, the individual is who it's all about.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Dillinger]

Lavender displayed a HUGE burst of emotional support and excitement during that whole Never thing unlike any she had displayed previously here. I will not...nor would I ever...negate her massive role in organizing that.

Actually - for the record, Lavy has often shown emotional support and friendship and caring about others. Just because you don't see it every day in her posts doesn't mean its not there.

As I'm sure you've been there emotionally for your friends as well - even if we don't see it here in all your posts either.

This thread has now, quite clearly, come to terms with what it was about all along. This was never a discussion of feminism. A few people have tried to make it that way. There have been some very good points made that are pertinent to the discussion - but, in gerneral, that lasts only a few posts before the thread returns to its real purpose:

This thread is about personalities. Not about one "type" of woman vs another. Not about Feminism vs. Feminine (which I posted earlier is false premise in the first place). No - this thread was meant to continue an ongoing disagreement between personalities. Rather than calling people names it is couched in terms that make it seem like a political or sociological debate. Again, there have been some excellent attempts to make it that way, but it keeps returning to personalities.

There have been some excellent discussions on the board about what feminism means. I love what KillerMuffin tried to start here... I think its deserving of its own thread. People cannot have a reasonable and educated discussion until the terms of the debate are defined.

Words have power. This is but one example. To one person a feminist is a woman who is secure with herself, understands the struggle women have had to get to where they are today, and understand the road that still lies ahead. To another person a feminist is a militant bull dyke.

If a thread could be started where definitions were laid out for these terms and everyone stated their position based on the same definitions this would be a very different discussion.

But that's not what this thread is about.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[seXieleXie]

I am not feminine?

Not at all?

Explain to me, beyond biting words, exactly what makes me unfeminine?

What do you perceive to be masculine traits within me.

I ask this seriously.

i think it's your giant cock and accompanying huge cajones

 

[Cherry]

Good morning, all

~ settling in with a cup of tea ... catching up on the evening's posts ~

I've only glanced quickly through each post at this point ... but took the time to stop and read KM's slowly.

KM --> you're amazing!

NOW, this is what I had hoped for in this thread. Wonderful!

I'll get back to each post that was directed to me shortly, going back to page ummmm ... wherever

 

[sexy-girl]

one more thing to say i think


i think all women are feminists and i think all women are feminine ... if they say they are or not

 

[Cherry]

Originally posted by Laurel
It always saddens me how women continue to be their own worst enemies. In my observations, strong women encounter way more criticism and insults from women than they ever do from men. The day we learn to put aside our pettiness and treat each other with respect will be a day to celebrate.

I wish I could find the thread that Lavender started on this point before (maybe Cheyenne can use her search talents?) It was excellent, and the timing was perfect, as well.

But, here's a couple of questions related to the point you made up there.^

You said, "strong women" ... and then later on in this thread, Lavender highlighted strong for emphasis.

Who do these strong women encounter criticism from usually? Other strong women? Or, gangs of women who find their strength in numbers?

Do strong women criticize other women, as well? When they do, do they tend to criticize women of their matching strength? Or, weaker women?

When women congregate, and criticism begins, do they tend to gang up on the singular target? Do women find strength in numbers? Does it easily become a free for all?

Does criticism really make us "women's worst enemies"?

My feelings relating to the above point:

As a rule, I think it is the strong women who tend to be more confrontational. This is not to say that women who are not confrontational, are not strong ... we each have our level of tolerance. Even the sweetest little thing can explode into a tirade when provoked to a degree past her limit. A woman's strength is not proven by confrontation, but rather the control over which she choses to involve herself in confrontation. Maybe, we just notice each others strengths during battle.

Additionally, I think strong women tend to criticize other strong women ... women, moreso than men, fight on a fair and level playing field ... not bullying, but picking their arguements well.

During a confrontation, women pick sides and get involved. Rarely, do I see apathy for the issue, nor advocacy for both sides ... we align ourselves with a belief we share as correct, and sometimes we adopt a belief because of friendship. Issues can become clouded and misunderstood with emotions ... feelings can get hurt ... personalities and old wounds conflict. Sometimes, the original arguement is lost in the evolving war of words.

We are passionate in our arguements. We feel the aftereffects of battle. Even the strongest of warriors suffers pangs of regret ... which leads to reconciliation. We fight hard, but we forgive easily.

To the audience, it may be perceived that we are our own worst enemies. In the end, there are lessons learned. Since we pick our fights well, with purpose, there's always some good that comes out of it. By being critical of each other, it forces us to give ourselves a good hard look. We enhance our character through the lessons learned through conflict.

This is not a bad thing.

 

[lavender]

 

[Cherry]

Originally posted by Cherry
The topic of this thread did not insinuate that Feminists are not Feminine, per se ... but instead, that when they choose to attack someone who doesn't fit their ideals, they give the appearance of being militant, hardened, and ultimately, less feminine than the person they are attacking.

Originally posted by Rambling Rose
Cherry, are you then less feminine at this moment? Of course you're not. The above statement is so erroneous it hurts. One woman does not gain or lose their femininity simply by confronting another female, no matter what tone she takes.

Of course, you're right, Rose.
But, I said they appear less feminine when they attack someone for being different ... giving an appearance that they are forcing their beliefs on the victim targeted.

The above quote should not be misconstrued to fit every conflict. It was specific, regarding the topic of the strong feminist verbalizing criticism directed toward a woman who doesn't exemplify her perception of feminist ideals.

 

[Cherry]

OH GOOD!

Here it is Cherry.

http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=69977&highlight=gender+roles

Thank you, Lav

Now THAT is a highly recommended good read to supplement some of the well made points made on this thread.

 

[Cherry]

Originally posted by Rambling Rose
Cherry, what you really wanted to know was what made me think I could say something so mean to a member who has never said anything spiteful to me or anyone. Why all this smokescreen about feminism versus femininity? Why not just call a spade a fucking spade?

You were pissed about it, you had already had your own negative interaction with me, and you wanted to call me on it. This would have been so much easier if you'd just asked me outright. Part of what I loathe about the actions you consider 'feminine' is the cloak of wide eyed innocence when confronted with your actions. I didn't do that and I wish you wouldn't either.

After a good night's sleep, getting away from this thread for a little while, I've made a conscious decision not to let myself be drawn into a personal arguement. Suffice to say, I have from the start and throughout this whole thread, made my intentions clear. Additionally, I have already answered you regarding my intent. I won't defend myself in this regard again to you, nor try to convince you otherwise.

Let's get on with the discussion, please ... it has branched out into some real meaningful communication.

 

[Cherry]

Your explanation falls flat on the purpose of this thead. Why are feminists so strident? Why is the ACLU so strident? The religious right? Same reason, they believe whole heartedly in their cause, and work tirelessly to convince others that what they say is true. It's a political and social thing, not a feminist one.

Like I said, the purpose of this thread was not genuinely about femininity, it was a personal agenda. I keep going rounds and rounds with you, I have enough material and historical background to keep me going for years. Using feminism as a means of furthering a personal agenda is not acceptable, and you'll be hard pressed to find any feminist worthy of the name willing to stand by you in it.

DITTO ... see above reply to Rose

 

[Cherry]

Originally posted by Sir Alex 4 U
This is a whole other issue. Many men have always been confused by some women's attitude about how we are "supposed" to act. Should we be manly, tough and act the Bad Boy? Or, should we be more in touch with our "feminine" side (whatever that is), be unafraid to cry in public and show our emotions? Men also have to wrestle with these issues. Man or woman, life is a never ending struggle to find what is comfortable for each individual. No one is truly free from this!

Good point.
A little off topic, but it does relate to how we present ourselves through our chosen ideals. Maybe another thread to expand on pros and cons of that particular issue?

 

[Cherry]

If the debate was about the defining or deconstruction of feminism, then I would feel that was a more worthy topic. But the real subject behind the original question was of cruelty and rudeness by members here towards one another. An intolerance to others posting styles.

GEG, I know that your post was directed to Lavender ... but, to elaborate on your above quote^

Once again ... the REAL subject behind the original question (and throughout the thread) for me has been, how strong Feminist views are vocalized toward other women who do not exemplify Feminist ideals. Specifically, the intolerance to others posting styles from a feminist viewpoint.



And feigned sexuality is a problem, but not one for me to point out in others. Especially here. This place is, as I said, fantasy to some. People can be whatever they want to be, whom ever they want to be, and get their jollies off. Now, in real life, the objectification of women, especially BY women, is an issue I could happily sink my teeth into. And yes, the erasure of this very topic is at the core of feminism, in its true form of female strength and power. And with the immense divide not only in the feminist camp, but also in any form of agreed upon definition, it is too difficult to debate this topic, because we will all end up squabbling about linguistics and nuances when we are actually all agreeing with the main belief, and our opinions therein cloud that belief.

And here, you are right on target with the intent of the thread.
Thank you for your contribution.