Feminist vs Feminine

[KillerMuffin]

I just read this thread and I'm going to comment on a few things about the posters, not the topics, and totally in general.

There seem to be two camps, here, and they are not communicating because they don't understand the words they other side is using.

Feminist. Define it. What is a feminist? The feeling I get from those who believe that feminists are hardened or militant and therefore not quite feminine aren't really discussing the same type of feminist that people who belive feminists are feminine. If that makes sense.

So, I challenge all of you to stop bickering for a moment and do this simple task. Define the following words:

Feminist:
Feminine:
Feminazi:

When you're done doing that, go back and re-read the posts by those you've disagreed with, removing your own personal definitions of feminist and feminine and adding theirs.

Thank you.

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[KillerMuffin]

No, bratcat, she didn't.

She wants to discuss feminism versus feminine. She never defined exaclty what those mean to her and neither has any other single poster here. Including you.

Feminist is one of the most volatile words in the English language because it's several different things depending on your background and education. It's a stereotype, it's a cause, it's simply a method of looking at the world.

Rather than waste time trying to pretend that everyone is discussing the exact same thing, your definition of feminism, define what you believe a feminist is and then look to see how it compares to someone else's.

None of you are discussing the same thing. In discussions like these, unless you want them to degenerate into fighting, you have to define the words.

Now define exactly what a feminist is to you. What is feminine to you.

I guarantee that you'll be surprised when you see what these words mean to other people.

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[Rambling Rose]

And now you start flaming Cherry. You have issues with other women. Several of the posters on this thread do. But you are attempting to saveface by going after Cherry now.

BITTER!
BAD TASTE IN MY MOUTH!

I will never regard you in the same manner. You've lost my respect.

Oh no! I'll never be able to face you again! Oh wait...how will I know who you are now? You logged out and came in again in order to leave your identity a mystery. Don't talk to me about saving face. It's very easy to tell someone they're a bitch when you are hiding behind a wall. Tell everyone here what I said to or about YOU to deserve this 'attack'. How is that any different than my own unwarranted insult to Cassidy? You, my dear, are a hypocrite and a harridan. If I ever had your respect I'm glad I lost it. I don't need friends like you.


You throw the word bitch around like that and it's likely to come back and hit you in the face one day.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I'll go next.

Feminism is female empowerment. Feminism is about making the female as valuable as the male in all aspects of life. A feminist is a person who believes that all people are on equal footing and should be equally empowered by the society around them. Each person should make their own decisions about what and what not to do based on individual idealism, not on societal gender norms.

Feminine is a person whose female sexualness shows through. She is in touch with herself as a person who carries breasts and bears a vagina. Her sexual self shows through any gender neutralization that might have occurred through clothing, position in life, or occupation. Marlene Deitrich is the most feminine woman I've ever seen and she defied gender roles in the thirties and forties. Femininity is within, not without.

A feminazi is a female superiorist. She believes that females are superior to men and that societal laws and norms should reflect that issue.

 

[seXieleXie]

feminist: a man or a woman who believes that while differences exist between the genders they are still inherantly equal groups.

feminine: a sociopolitical ideal of how women should behave, in the united states this includes being quiet, passive and nurturing.

 

[Mischka]

Without going to the literal meanings of the words...

How does someone like me fit into your definitions, brat? I hadn't considered that perspective before, and I'm curious to see how I'd be viewed within that point of reference.

I haven't participated in this thread so far because (1) I got here too late and (2) I think the feminine v. feminist argument is a red herring, as related to the actual conflict going on around here. But my latter point can take up a thread of it's own, and I rather enjoy reading this one.

 

[Rambling Rose]

Examples of Empowered Women

Feminism: Gloria Steinam, Katherine Hepburn

Feminine: Diana of Wales, Audrey Hepburn

Feminazi: Sheena, Queen of the Jungle

I like the women that take a bite from every plate.

 

[KillerMuffin]

C'mon, Mishy, define feminism first. You know you wanna. You'll love it, I promise. Just don't tell Mommy and Daddy and we can do it again next week.

 

[Mischka]

C'mon, Mishy, define feminism first.

Nope. I know how I perceive myself, but since I haven't participated in any of the threads in contention, I thought I would make an interesting lab rat on the subject. And I'm not saying anything more until brat analyzes me.

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Rambling Rose]

Baited but not hooked

I am not a fan of herring, red or otherwise.

 

[KillerMuffin]

C'mon, CB, pony up. Define feminism in your terms. Purty please?

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[KillerMuffin]

What I see here, despite the utter reticence of a few women's studies majors, is a gap in what people perceive as "feminism."

Some of us who go to college need to step back a little bit and understand that some of us who do not go to college right now are seeing feminism in terms of popular culture stereotype. Some of us have no access to women's studies professors or books. Some of us have not had any interest in doing so because we have not seen what feminism is beyond posturings of a group of superiorists like Dworkin and lunatics like Paglia.

Some of us who are not in college need to step back a little bit, too. They should understand that there is an in depth history to feminism and should look into. You have the Internet, do a little research about what feminists have done for all of us. Without feminists the woman would still be chattel. You owe it to yourself to get educated about what feminism really is before you make judgements based on media influenced stereotypes.

We should also realize that while we may not face gender discrimination in day to day life, a lot of us still face it in our chosen professions. Criminal lawyers, for instance, have a great deal of fighting to do simply to be taken seriously as a female lawyer. Unless she behaves like June Cleaver, she's going to be labeled a feminazi simply by virtue of being a female in a male dominated profession. Computer programmers, for another instance, often find themselves getting pressured from their math and programming professors to change majors simply by virtue of being female.

It is a fact that women are still paid less than equally qualified men for the same job. Gender discrimination still exists, even if we may not notice it in our day to day lives.

Continuing with this mythos of femininity as a soft, tenderhearted, nurturing and delicate female figure is undermining femaleness itself. Why should a woman in floral print dresses be considered more feminine than a woman in pants? Outward trappings and conformity to societal norms of what femininity ought to be has nothing to do with the very essence of female itself. I am not a feminine woman, by current societal definition. This does not bother me because my femininity comes from the very essence of my being. I am feminine because I can not be mistaken for a man.

 

[Dillinger]

KM - you're my hero.

Uh... heroine...

Sorry.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[ksmybuttons]

Re: I am a Feminist and feminine.

Being a feminist is about CHOICE. The ability, to CHOOSE.

I defined what feminism meant to me, KM.

I did a Certificate in Women's Studies in the late 70's. I did the reading and I intellectualized. That was 20 years ago. I have lived that 20 years now and no longer live in academia and no longer express myself that way. That is a choice.

I have defined myself my way.

When we allow others to label us and accept that label, we are not being a feminist because we have allowed someone else to define us.

I have to put my son to bed, I can't finish now. That, too, is my choice.

 

[Guest]

Actually, you have it both goin on for you...you are feministically feminine...

I don't look at you and lavy as cut from the same cloth...she is radically feminist while you have softened feminine edges. You get the same things accomplished but where she does it with caustic vinegar...you do it with honey.

I came back cause I thought of an example...when Never moved out to Texas...I imagined lavy to be the braun (with brain of course) while you were the one that accomplished so much as well BUT you found the time to bake a cake and to mother her.

It's amazing how the internet skews how we project ourselves. I'll take the Never situation as a perfect example.

Lavender was the Uber Nuturer Mother Figure, and I had a walk-on role as Fun Aunt Figure. Lavender is a deeply emotional, passionate person. Her maternal instinct kicked in big time when Never moved out here, and she was the most caring, concerned person I've ever witnessed. I barely had to do anything because lavender took care of everything. That cake was about the biggest contribution I made to the situation.

I have never been told that I'm feminine before. I have zero maternal instinct, I eschew anything romantic, and my sexuality is stark and straightforward, not soft and caressing. I agree that I come across as more diplomatic than lavender, but I would attribute that to my dispassionate disposition, not to any feminine aura.

KM is right about the "mythos of femininity." It's a stereotype that I struggle with every day. As irrational as it is, I equate femininity with softness, and I equate softness with weakness. From my earliest childhood, I was encouraged to pursue a professional path and I was told my determination would lead to success. Every successful professional path is dominated by males, and hence traditionally masculine characteristics. At this point, I don't know if I consciously suppressed traditionally feminine traits, or if I just have never had them.

Either way, I consider femininity a subset of female emotional and sexual expression, and something that I lack. It makes me an incomplete person.