Feminist vs Feminine

[Cherry]

~ whistling past the BratCat/CB squabble ~

... and, catching up now with Ms Muffy

 

[Cherry]

There seem to be two camps, here, and they are not communicating because they don't understand the words the other side is using.

Yeah, that was partly my fault ... by using the catchy title Feminist vs Feminine, I gave some false impressions that became sidetracked from the intended topic.

I have, subsequently, tried to clarify that throughout the thread ... but, I think that not all of our comments are consumed, or maybe it's the timing of reading/writing posts.

My homework assignment follows, as requested.

 

[Rambling Rose]

Once again ... the REAL subject behind the original question (and throughout the thread) for me has been, how strong Feminist views are vocalized toward other women who do not exemplify Feminist ideals. Specifically, the intolerance to others posting styles from a feminist viewpoint.

Simply because there is an occassional lapse exposing frustration, contempt, disrespect...what have you...does not mean that there is a general intolerance toward others that do not meet one's expectations of a feminist posting style (whatever that is!). In fact, tolerance is shown every single time someone does not respond (or attack, to use your phrasing).

I am not trying to harangue you, Cherry. I am merely pointing out what I feel are unfair assessments on your part.

 

[Cherry]

Simply because there is an occassional lapse exposing frustration, contempt, disrespect...what have you...does not mean that there is a general intolerance toward others that do not meet one's expectations of a feminist posting style (whatever that is!). In fact, tolerance is shown every single time someone does not respond (or attack, to use your phrasing).

I am not trying to harangue you, Cherry. I am merely pointing out what I feel are unfair assessments on your part.

Errrrmmmmm, Rose ...
I was paraphrasing/elaborating on GreenEyedGirl's post with that wording. Look again, please. (somewhere around page 7, I think)

 

[Rambling Rose]

Paraphrased or not, my response is still pertinent.

 

[Cherry]

Continuing after work interruption ...

Originally posted by KillerMuffin
Feminist. Define it. What is a feminist? The feeling I get from those who believe that feminists are hardened or militant and therefore not quite feminine aren't really discussing the same type of feminist that people who belive feminists are feminine. If that makes sense.

So, I challenge all of you to stop bickering for a moment and do this simple task. Define the following words: Feminist, Feminine, Feminazi


Feminine:
A quality of attitude and appearance attributed to the female gender, characteristics used as adjectives to describe womenly traits. These qualities and characteristics are often stereotyped by individual perception to include a comparison to the opposite male gender of physical size and strength, agility and grace, temperment, or attire. A woman’s femininity is not determined by what she wears, how she presents herself physically/emotionally, or what activity she performs based on stereotyping. She can be as feminine roping cattle, weeding a garden with her fingernails caked with dirt, pushing a wheel barrow, lifting weights, racing a sailboat, as she can be holding a baby to her bosom, embracing her lover, cooking and managing a household, professionally competing in the workplace. To respect, honor and acknowledge the differences between men and women does not diminish, nor condescend, either gender ... viva la difference!

Feminist:
A person who promotes the betterment of women through various multiple levels of commitment. Whether it be through organized demonstration, studies and psychological impacts, vocalizing opposition to contrary standards, or support and networking to provide opportunities, Feminism is multi-faceted.

Many may perceive the stereotyping of the 60s, ‘bra burning Feminists’, as the early intervention of The Movement. However, all through history, and across the globe, Feminism has evolved without the distinction of name. The Women’s Suffrage, to fight for the right to vote, is one example in the US. (CB has elaborated on the historic value much better than I, so I’ll leave it to her)

This is what I said previously in this thread ...
“I am independently strong, self-sufficient, educated and talented, charitable to those less fortunate, and quite capable of going it alone. I got where I am by making my own mistakes and achievements, each a learning process along the way. Self-confident in my strengths, I feel no need to roar.

Respecting the achievements of the Feminist movement, I am mindful that the opportunities I benefited from during my development, would not have been possible without organized support. In the same token, I find it nonproductive to militantly lambast or judge other women for being less combative or ideal, in a forum such as this.

Moderate Feminism, the type I ascribe to, is the support for betterment of our sisters, without the radical, in-your-face demonstration or critiques ... Yet, I acknowledge the role that militants have contributed to that goal ... and, in this thread, the request was to expand on the virtue of each belief, for a better understanding, not to find fault with either opinion.

Feminazi:
A feminist who embodies the cause (equality of women) to extreme proportions. What I would call a militant Feminist. Of course, there are also different levels of extremism here, too.

 

[Cherry]

Paraphrased or not, my response is still pertinent.

Then ... please make it to GEG. Those were her words, not mine.

 

[Rambling Rose]

I don't want to split hairs with you on this all afternoon. My point was that tolerance is shown with each and every instance that a conflict is not present between what some perceive to be two seperate camps.

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[Cherry]

A wonderful post, naudiz ... thank you for participating.


Originally posted by naudiz
I think that it's society that defines gender roles far more than biology. I look around at our society, and I don't put much faith in what it has to say. I wear what's comfortable. If I feel like looking nice I dress up to suit my tastes. I say what's on my mind if I think it's appropriate. I express my sexuality according to levels of personal comfort. I'd rather be known for my mind than my body. I couldn't care less whether or not you think I'm pretty. Hell, I couldn't care less if Mr. Naudiz thinks I'm pretty, but he seems to so it's all good. I don't live to please him. He doesn't live to protect me. We support and nurture each other in equal parts, as individuals who happen to care a lot about each other.

I especially liked this part (above) ... similar issue in Lavender's excerpts, as well.

Is that feminism? Is that feminine? Either/or? Neither? The problem I have with these generalizations of what it means to be a man or a woman is that the individual often ends up falling through the cracks, and when you break it down far enough, the individual is who it's all about.

Yup ... a lot of confusion earlier on. I think KM hit the nail right on the head when she asked us to interpret our own understanding of the terminology.

 

[Cherry]

Oh dear ... here we go fucking well again!

Originally posted by Dillinger

This thread has now, quite clearly, come to terms with what it was about all along. This was never a discussion of feminism. A few people have tried to make it that way. There have been some very good points made that are pertinent to the discussion - but, in gerneral, that lasts only a few posts before the thread returns to its real purpose:

This thread is about personalities. Not about one "type" of woman vs another. Not about Feminism vs. Feminine (which I posted earlier is false premise in the first place). No - this thread was meant to continue an ongoing disagreement between personalities. Rather than calling people names it is couched in terms that make it seem like a political or sociological debate. Again, there have been some excellent attempts to make it that way, but it keeps returning to personalities.
....
If a thread could be started where definitions were laid out for these terms and everyone stated their position based on the same definitions this would be a very different discussion.

But that's not what this thread is about.

And, was THAT the voice of authority speaking?

I don't know what I have to fucking SAY to make my intent clear. From the start of this thread, throughout this thread, in response to posts accusing some other intention, I have honestly and clearly defined my intent as being:

- because of a recent reoccurance of what *I* thought was an ongoing trend

- to open it up for calm discussion, in order to better understand opposing viewpoints

- identifying (without names) the trend as one where a woman with strong Feminist beliefs would demean a woman whose posting style and/or visuals are of an overtly sexual nature

During the intended topic, I have made my own observations/viewpoints known as part of the discussion (as all posters have, and was my perogative), which should not be misconstrued as a purpose of this thread, but merely interaction in it.

Yes, the thread has taken many turns and twists (I like that) ... some of it personal in nature (I preferred otherwise). For YOU to now exclaim that the journey was the purpose all along, is just quite false.

Have you bothered to read my entries ascertaining otherwise? Or, do you think I am just a liar?

Have it your way, all of you who think my intent was malicious. I won't defend it again.

 

[Cherry]

one more thing to say i think


i think all women are feminists and i think all women are feminine ... if they say they are or not

Spoken like a true cutie pie

 

[Guest]

they hear but they won't believe

 

[Sir Alex 4 U]

I've gotten lost during huge portions of this thread, so I won't even pretend to understand what everyone is talking about, but whenever I see gender issues tossed around, I get a little confused and perturbed.

I am admittedly unenlightened. I spend most of my time inside my own head, and I have no doubt there is a whole big world out there I understand nothing about. That said, I have no idea what feminism and feminine are supposed to mean. From what I've read, I don't think these are terms with a definition upon which everyone is going to agree. To me? Neither of them mean much. Again, I'm ignorant. La.

I can see the distinction Lavender is trying to make. I think it's annoying when anyone, be they male or female, tries to come on too strong not out of sincerity but in hopes of getting a certain reaction. Whether it's a female persona saying, "I am Femmie LaPetite and I need a big strong man to take care of me!" or a male persona saying, "I am Robust McManlyPants! I need a woman to tell me how I rock her world!" I am colored unimpressed. Call it a personal preference. It smacks of trying too hard. Maybe that is the way a person really is, but it's so far from what I am that it seems unreal. Like leprechauns, only I'm not always after their Lucky Charms. Like, at all.

I have to think about this. When I stop trying and just am and I take a good look at myself, I see a person. There are breasts and a vagina, but I don't think of them as the elements that compose me any more than my hair color or eye color. I feel that if I had a penis instead, not much on the inside would change, but everything on the outside would. That's a horrifying thing; not that I define myself by the number of X chromosomes I have, but that others do.

Men don't escape this trap either. One of the saddest conversations I ever had was with a co-worker whose baby daughter was dying. We were talking about it, and he said he wasn't sure if he was allowed to cry about this. I asked him what he meant, and he said he was always taught that men didn't have the same capacity for feeling emotion as women, so he wasn't sure it was appropriate or even possible to cry about his little girl fading away day by day, but when we were talking, he had tears in his eyes. That conversation was like a kick in the stomach to me. Who would tell a man he isn't allowed to cry when he's losing his baby? How fucked up is that?

I think that it's society that defines gender roles far more than biology. I look around at our society, and I don't put much faith in what it has to say. I wear what's comfortable. If I feel like looking nice I dress up to suit my tastes. I say what's on my mind if I think it's appropriate. I express my sexuality according to levels of personal comfort. I'd rather be known for my mind than my body. I couldn't care less whether or not you think I'm pretty. Hell, I couldn't care less if Mr. Naudiz thinks I'm pretty, but he seems to so it's all good. I don't live to please him. He doesn't live to protect me. We support and nurture each other in equal parts, as individuals who happen to care a lot about each other.

Is that feminism? Is that feminine? Either/or? Neither? The problem I have with these generalizations of what it means to be a man or a woman is that the individual often ends up falling through the cracks, and when you break it down far enough, the individual is who it's all about.

BRAVO!!!!! I couldn't have said it better myself! Nor would I try! I see a lot of bickering, and little understanding! I am a man! Nothing more, nothing less. I feal what I feel and I think what I think. Mostly I try not to hurt anyone and to be kind to strangers! Does that make me a feminist?