Feminism: What is It?

[lavender]

 

[seXieleXie]

i got a PM after KM's "hi my name is..." thread that said my self description sounded great... except for the feminist part. that seemed odd to me. feminism isn't about man hating or the inherant superiority of women over men. feminism is about equality, at least it is to me. it's giving men and women choices, chances to be whoever they want to be, whatever they want to be. men can be teachers and nurses and dancers and costume designers and hairstylists and homemakers. women can be doctors and construction workers and preists and truck drivers and executives.

right now people are so put off by the backlash of 70's feminism that they hate the label and everything connected to it. i wish it weren't so. there are still causes in the world worth fighting for, equality is one of them.

 

[kotori]

my definition

just because you don't have a prick, doesn't mean you don't have balls.

i like to think of myself as a feminist. to quote "red green":

I'm a man
and I can change
if I have to
I guess.

 

[lavender]

 

[Moridin187]

I'm a total egalitarian.. I believe that stupidity and inferiority has nothing to do with sex, race, age.. There are wonderful, bright, cool-ass people of all of the above groups, and there are morons and scum in all of them as well. It's great to be proud of being a woman, just as it is to be proud of being a man, to be proud of being Native American or Irish.

However, feminazis are as wrongheaded and irritating as chauvanists. Women are Not superior to men. All men are Not tail-chasing, sex-driven, slobbering fools. Do not lump me in with a preconcieved notion of my sex.

 

[lavender]

 

[kotori]

pick away

Not to pick nits, but the fact that women have to have "balls" in order to be strong is simply indicative of how entrenched our culture is in patriarchy and knee jerk masculinism.

but you have to acknowledge a certian cultural/linguistic lag, especially when speaking metaphorically. Part of the problem with the perception of "feminism" that lead to moronic comments by Limburgher et al., was the sensitivity to words like "woMEN" etc.

 

[Calamity Jane]

women can be doctors and construction workers and preists and truck drivers and executives.

Sexie, please don't think i'm poicking on you, I'm not. But that statement (and yes, i took it out of it's context on purpose) irks me no end. Women, strong women, feminists even, should feel free to embrace the traditionally feminine roles just as easily as the masculine ones.

My sister thinks I am a sell out. I got married, had babies, stay at home with them, etc. I should be 'doing more'... part of being a feminist is being comfortable with being a woman. knowing that there are some things that only you can do, and relishing that.

I love being a woman. I love the fact that 80% of the time, my husband carries out the garbage because it's 'the guy's job'... i love that men open doors for me, tip their hats when i pass them, etc. I know that when i choose to, i'll finish my degree and make one hell of a vet, even though a male vet told me once that 'women are too weak to be large animal vets'. Do I feel a need to prove myself to him? Nope. I only need to prove myself to me.

Hmmm... I don't think i answered any of your questions lavy darlin, but the mini rant felt good.

 

[MunchinMark]

Perhaps that's the way that society works. Show me a society where any prominant individual, regardless of gender, has no need for the confidence and upfront nature implied by 'having the balls'. It might be possible, but I am pretty sure there are no actual examples.

We do live in a society which has been male dominate for a long time. There are several good reasons why this has been the case and I could recite them if anyone cared. I think that if people appreciate society as it is, then they can begin to slowly change it for the better of all people. But this is a huge endevour that must involve changing people's attitudes gently.

The aggressive feminism of the 70's and indeed (less aggressive but still strong) of the 80's (glass ceiling smashing) and 90's P.C.(anyone remember 'new man' ? ack) led to a backlash amongst the male population, many members of which have felt that they are under attack and have reacted as if they were.

Gently, gently, and with proper understanding is the only way that true equality, and not just a see-saw of progress and regress, could possibly be achieved.

I'm all for equality, in everything. But it must be truly equal. Which it currently isn't.

(If that hasn't confused you, well done!)

 

[seXieleXie]

Sexie, please don't think i'm poicking on you, I'm not. But that statement (and yes, i took it out of it's context on purpose) irks me no end. Women, strong women, feminists even, should feel free to embrace the traditionally feminine roles just as easily as the masculine ones.

i never said they shouldn't. my whole point was about being who and what you want to be, regardless of gender. if who and what you want to be is a stay at home mom that is great, more power to you. however, just because some women decide to take that path shouldn't mean that others have to as well. opportunity shouldn't be limited by gender.

 

[modest mouse]

For the men,
do you consider yourself feminists?

No. I don't.

In what ways do you think your views and your actions have helped the cause of women in their personal lives, their family lives and in their career?

I have helped women in my life, as they have helped me. I have helped men in my life, as they have helped me. I've done nothing to further the cause of women.

***
Feminism is a woman looking inside herself and developing her own values and beliefs and emotions. Her own desires. Opinions and thoughts. Its allowing this and also recognizing the responsibility to do so.

All else, while important, is rhetoric to one degree or another. Sociology in a way, whereas feminism is a much more intimate concept. To my mind anyway.

(Lavender, a topic well worth discussing in its complexities. Great thread.)

 

[Fly_On_Wall]

I think females thinking they are equil to men is proper.

however most feminists think women oh oh sorry Womyn are superior to men. and we all know this is untrue cause all women are ment for is to make us food and suck our dicks
and get us the ocatinal beer

 

[artful]

OPINION

I wanted to wait for SexyChele to post on this thread,as I'm sure she will,but I just couldn't! The reason I wanted to wait,is because she expresses her thoughts SO much clearer than I,and THEN,I could just simply quote her post,adding a profound,"I agree!"

FEMINISM~CHAUVINISM,what is it?

Hell,I don't REALLY know.The terms have so many (all inclusive)definitions,it would be impossible to address the issue in any debatable format. Though it's been tried many times.

The real issue is,FREEDOM of CHOICE!
Fortunately for the citzens of the good ol'U.S.A., we gott'em.Our choices of life style,along with the pursuit of happiness is extended to all.No,I am not saying all have an EQUAL opportunity to do so,and No,I am not saying there is a level playing field.

What I am saying is EXACTLY the opposite! HEY,wake up people! There is a fucking difference! Whoever or whatever you want to be,.......BE! You gotta choice! EXCERCISE it!

If you want to take a stand on a particular issue, either pro or con,then DO IT,for God's sake! Why must it be grouped under the title~FEMINISM or CHAUVINISM?

I myself have my OWN specific likes and dislikes,about MOST subject matter,but in SOME things,it really DOESN'T matter to ME!

Sorry folks,but we ARE individuals,and the ISSUES are individual.The pooling of issues is an ancient political RITE (pun intended) used by the pro's to further their OWN agendas.

That's my STORY and I'm stick'in tuit !

 

[Cheyenne]

For me it is simple. Feminism = equality. Not extra help to get there, just equal opportunity to be where ever I want to be.

I try to be gender-neutral in hiring decisions, that's my contribution. I'm lucky enough to work for someone approximately my own age who has the same attitude.

 

[PainSlut]

I can't remember who this was quoted from, but it was on the front of a tee shirt i wore to death in high school: "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people." and that is how I continue to think of things... I don't want to be more.. or less than a man.. I just want to be me, human, a person.. the same way a man is... men will always have things they can do better.. and so will women... we will never be completely and totally equal, and even on every little level, but we can be respectful and close peers.

 

[PainSlut]

grr flaky little double post

 

[Guest]

yesssss!

Women, strong women, feminists even, should feel free to embrace the traditionally feminine roles just as easily as the masculine ones.

My sister thinks I am a sell out. I got married, had babies, stay at home with them, etc. I should be 'doing more'... part of being a feminist is being comfortable with being a woman. knowing that there are some things that only you can do, and relishing that.

I love being a woman. I love the fact that 80% of the time, my husband carries out the garbage because it's 'the guy's job'... i love that men open doors for me, tip their hats when i pass them, etc. I know that when i choose to, i'll finish my degree and make one hell of a vet, even though a male vet told me once that 'women are too weak to be large animal vets'. Do I feel a need to prove myself to him? Nope. I only need to prove myself to me.

Hmmm... I don't think i answered any of your questions lavy darlin, but the mini rant felt good.

I think women have been led astray. There's a deep-rooted cultural attitude that the equality which we so strive, can only be met by a woman being employed outside the home . Women are not celebrated or revered (or paid) to stay home and raise their children.

Feminists (per se) have had a bad rap due to a few overzealous members (hmm kind of like the taliban. lol), but to me it means loving yourself, discovering who you are & being true to that, choosing what fills you up!

And of course loving men!! Lots of them...

 

[Guest]

yesssss!

Women, strong women, feminists even, should feel free to embrace the traditionally feminine roles just as easily as the masculine ones.

My sister thinks I am a sell out. I got married, had babies, stay at home with them, etc. I should be 'doing more'... part of being a feminist is being comfortable with being a woman. knowing that there are some things that only you can do, and relishing that.

I love being a woman. I love the fact that 80% of the time, my husband carries out the garbage because it's 'the guy's job'... i love that men open doors for me, tip their hats when i pass them, etc. I know that when i choose to, i'll finish my degree and make one hell of a vet, even though a male vet told me once that 'women are too weak to be large animal vets'. Do I feel a need to prove myself to him? Nope. I only need to prove myself to me.

Hmmm... I don't think i answered any of your questions lavy darlin, but the mini rant felt good.

I think women have been led astray. There's a deep-rooted cultural attitude that the equality which we so strive, can only be met by a woman being employed outside the home . Women are not celebrated or revered (or paid) to stay home and raise their children.

Feminists (per se) have had a bad rap due to a few overzealous members (hmm kind of like the taliban. lol), but to me it means loving yourself, discovering who you are & being true to that, choosing what fills you up!

And of course loving men!! Lots of them...

 

[RhumbRunner13]

Lavy

"I hate that Rush has influenced our culture so greatly. I cringe everytime I hear or read the word FemiNazi. Because Rush uses that term to describe "me." ".

I hope you understand that "Rush", nor the rest of us (most), do NOT use the word "feminazi" to describe women (feminists) who stand up for the equal rights of women in our society. "Feminazi" was a term introduced by Rush Limbaugh referring to RADICAL feminists who's interest seemed to lean more to their own agenda than the general welfare of the female populous, such as trying to impose the concept of abortion upon those who were for various reasons opposed to it. The term grew out of such concepts that "all sex is rape" .

Please, if you wish to criticize a person or group, know what they are speaking about before "jumping in their shit".

RhumbRunner

 

[lavender]

 

[lavender]

 

[lavender]

 

[Texan]

I cringe everytime I hear or read the word FemiNazi. Because Rush uses that term to describe "me."

"edited for clarity"

Radicals and extremists have had their importance in our culture. Without them, the grassroots motivation for change never begins.

lavender, based upon what I know about you from this board, when Rush uses the term FemiNazi, he is not describing "you".

While I agree that "radicals and extremists" often accomplish their goals; I do not agree that they are "important in our culture". Nor do I agree with the statement, "grassroots motivation for change never begins without radicals and extremists."

Justifying the actions of radicals and extremists is as wrong as saying "the ends justify the means."

Radical actions often negatively impact public opinion of an otherwise good idea. Extremists often give "moderates" a reason to dislike an opinion they would otherwise embrace. The heroes of most great social movements were not the radicals, but rather, those who expressed themselves with calm resolve. When I think of the success of the civil rights movement, I think of the heroes like MLK and Rosa Parks; NOT H. Rap Brown or Malcolm X.

The topic here is feminism, and the lessons are the same. I think the radicals and extremists of the feminist movement have hurt the cause. While they have instilled fear in many men, they have hurt their cause more with women than with men.

Here is my own personal "radical" view concerning feminism. I don't feel that men are the impediment when it comes to equal opportunities for women. Women are the problem. Or should I say that it is because women are so ambivalent about their definitions of "success," that success cannot be achieved. As an anecdotal example: three of the five women with whom I have worked in the past ten years, left their careers behind to have children and become full-time moms. While I applaud their decisions, I point out that their definitions of success changed.

I think it is time to get beyond feminism. I think it is time to celebrate our differences rather than trying to define our successes by our similarities.

just one MAN's thoughts

 

[RhumbRunner13]

30 year olds.

Lavy,

"Almost 1/3 of the populous does not a radical make."

Nor does it make them right, just or anything approaching intelligent! It is very easy to be automatically adverse or supportive of any opinion, depending on the "trigger" words that pop up. Sorry, but I have not seen a reasonable percentage of women under 30 that can define the difference between the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence to give them much weight in how I view the world. Of course the same is true of sub30 males and sub30 others.

Luv ya,

RhumbRunner

 

[Guest]

lavender, based upon what I know about you from this board, when Rush uses the term FemiNazi, he is not describing "you".

Actually, Texan. He is. I am opposed to ANY restrictions on abortions other than the initial ideas about what trimester the pregnancy could be terminated. Furthermore, Rush's anger against NOW and supposed radical feminist groups is that he believes they only focus on two issues, abortion and lesbian rights. I vehemently disagree with Rush's assessment, not only of NOW but also of the feminist groups he denounces.

He is describing me, more so than you know. I don't live the stereotypical radical lifestyle. But, that is all it is. A stereotype. My inner self, although not militant, is quite radical.

While I agree that "radicals and extremists" often accomplish their goals; I do not agree that they are "important in our culture". Nor do I agree with the statement, "grassroots motivation for change never begins without radicals and extremists."

If it hadn't been for the radicals in the feminist movement in the 70s and a somewhat tempered version in the 80s, the quest for women's equality and women's rights would not be where they are today. In my opinion, it is simply the backlash to these groups that has caused women to decry them. On a political level, radical organizations are needed in society. On a purely political level, the radical groups are the ones who create the climate for change. The ones that are proactive, the ones that are militant about their beliefs and almost push to an extreme are the ones that allow those who are almost too weak to stand up on their own, to feel that their more tempered position is legitimate.

On a social level, radical movements can be quite damaging. Not only do they receive immense backlash from the people who they are seemingly up against, but they also can almost disenfranchise the same people they are trying to fight for.

Justifying the actions of radicals and extremists is as wrong as saying "the ends justify the means."

Militant feminists are not like pro-lifers who bomb abortion clinics. Although many radical groups have terrible means, when it comes to the problems with militant feminists, it's quite different.

The problem with militant feminism is the fact that they have positioned men as the enemy. But, I can see where they are coming from in many respects. They aren't out terrorizing men physically, or advocating violence and crime. These are feminists we are talking about. Even militant feminists are opposed to patriarchy and thus to the violence that ensues from such a system.

Radical actions often negatively impact public opinion of an otherwise good idea. Extremists often give "moderates" a reason to dislike an opinion they would otherwise embrace. The heroes of most great social movements were not the radicals, but rather, those who expressed themselves with calm resolve. When I think of the success of the civil rights movement, I think of the heroes like MLK and Rosa Parks; NOT H. Rap Brown or Malcolm X.

But how can you discredit the amazing work done by Malcolm X? Yes, some of the actions taken in his name were negative. But, he's still right there on the top of my list, sitting right next to MLK as one of the primary reasons for civil rights changes in our society. I agree with your post to an extent. See my above comments.

The topic here is feminism, and the lessons are the same. I think the radicals and extremists of the feminist movement have hurt the cause. While they have instilled fear in many men, they have hurt their cause more with women than with men.

Actually it's men's responses to radical feminism that have women questioning on many fronts. Check out Faludi's book Backlash. It discusses the skewed statistics that were promoted by various organizations dominated by conservative men to show that women were NOT happy in the workforce, that women wanted love, that women needed a man. It's so hard to discern what is truth and what is promoted by the inherent and inviduous gender discrimination in this country.

Here is my own personal "radical" view concerning feminism. I don't feel that men are the impediment when it comes to equal opportunities for women. Women are the problem. Or should I say that it is because women are so ambivalent about their definitions of "success," that success cannot be achieved. As an anecdotal example: three of the five women with whom I have worked in the past ten years, left their careers behind to have children and become full-time moms. While I applaud their decisions, I point out that their definitions of success changed.

Texan this is where I have to disagree with you moreso than at any time on the board. Men, as well as, women are an impediment to equal opportunities for women. Our society is a male-dominated one. It's very hard for men to truly understand all the trials and tribulations that women face. Think about me for example. I am extraordinarily conscious of how I portray myself on this board. I gripe at women who use sex as a tool. I think rather than being empowering it's delegitimizing their mental, emotional and other sensory stimulating capacities.

Women walk a very fine line. That fine line, especially in regards to sexuality, is one that is so difficult to see and to define. Is a woman being flirty? Is a woman utilizing conjecture in her attempts to get male attention? Or is she truly exercising her sexual freedoms that she is now afforded?

I was recently reading various articles about just this subject. It was discussing the babyfication of women in advertising. Women dress young, they try to act innocent, naive, and needy because it gives them the girlish allure that has become so "sexualized" in America today. The fine line here is whether women are consciously making the choice to act like this because that is what they want, because that is what they find to be sexy and empowering in their minds. Or are they just conforming once again to male expectations...and trying to please and allure men.

On a career level, I think you are just as wrong. Do you understand how fucking difficult it is for a woman to be an attorney and retain her femininity? This is something I will be struggling with for the remainder of my life. Women cling tightly to their humanity. It's such an elemental part of their character. However, they have to put on their proverbial strap-on when they enter board meetings, or handle a client. They can't be themselves. Many have to be a masculinized version of themselves.

Additionally, how many times do you see companies pass over a very strong opinionated woman, for one who is intelligent, yet quiet? It happens a helluva lot. There truly still exists a women should be seen and not heard mentality in many businesses across this country, especially in the south.

Many women leave careers because in this male dominated world, there are not enough allowances for motherhood. It's almost impossible to make partner in a law firm if you've taken time out, even a little, to have children. The men do not have to deal with this burden.

Women are just as much of an impediment, because they so easily allow themselves to get sucked into male expectations. Many women receive their validation from male attention and male praise. It's a sick fact of life, but it's true. That male attention and male validation doesn't come from strength. I refer you to a thread I recently started about being called a Tomboy. Women who are strong, women who win at the game, do so many times at the sacrifice of their person.

If you don't think women go through this struggle on a daily basis, come get in my head for a few days. Then tell me women are our own problems. Then tell me it's time for an end to feminism. Until our society can so fundamentally change to eradicate centuries of patriarchy, feminism can't and should not die.

I think it is time to get beyond feminism. I think it is time to celebrate our differences rather than trying to define our successes by our similarities.

just one MAN's thoughts

Not all feminism is about similarities. Read the above article I linked on this thread.