Feminism: What is It?
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Gamelover221
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The deffinition of a Feminist coming from a female friend of mine as well as myself, would be any woman that considers herself a complete equal to a man. Disagreeing with Pagancowgirl, a feminist is a girl that would be willing to take the trash out half the time because she knows she is responsible for her share. By the same token, I'd expect the man to help take care of the kids as much as possible too. I'd be willing to not be the moneymaker in the family if my wife wanted to be career oriented. I believe that for some things one gender or the other is more naturally inclined, but almost anything can be learned if an attempt is made.
modest mouse
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Gamelover221 said:
I think you have fallen into a common trap. You're touting feminism as a reaction rather than what it should be, which is a source of thought and emotion and the reactions to such.
Contending that feminism somehow implies men and women should be more alike is exactly what radical feminists react to so vehemently. This polarity is so much of the problem, as shown by some of the posts in the thread up to this point.
You've radically misinterpreted Pagacowgirl's post, or I have. Her point was about women, and in fact people finding their own roles, their own lives. Not breaking everything down the middle because that would be equal and make life better.
Yes I react strongly to your argument, I've heard it before and its too easy.
Jakass-In-A-Box
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Feminism is just another way to give women the delusion that they have rights. Man was alone, so god created Eve for Adam. Right from the beginning women were made to serve men and be there playthings. I have taken my place in this world; all men and women alike should join my way. Men are the dominant species; women are a sub species of men. Ladies shut up and do as he says. Guys if she doesn’t listen, hit her.
I have spoken.
I have spoken.
Gamelover221
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Whoa Modest...ok too easy you say? What is easy about true equality? It's a goal that will never be reached but should always be sought after. Why should people have different roles because of their gender? Why not let people choose their own roles instead of following a sterotype? I don't mind at all that Pagancowgirl chose as her role to play the housewife, that's a perfectly wonderful thing. What I do not like though, is the fact that anyone would want to stress differences in males and females. I think it's horrible to think of anything as being "a man's job". Because of a little Y in me I should suddenly be obligated to play certain roles in life? I love to do nice things for a lady, but I'd expect her to get the door for me too. Everyone wants to feel special.
sigh
chant mistress
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wow lavender...i'm wondering how to follow...
i believe, as texan implied, that there are certain biological differences between men and women that can't be denied, and these differences must not ony be recognized, but celebrated
take me, for instance...sadly lacking (apparently) in testosterone, i'm tiny in stature...clearly if there ever will be a man in my life (not likely, but you never know) it'll be up to him to do the "guy things"...he can twist the lids off of jars and haul the couch up two flights of stairs
fine...cool...i can live with that
for my part of the deal i'll bear the children, which all by itself far outdoes the sum total of everything any man can ever do in my book
the sad thing is, though, that somewhere along the way the ability to twist open a jar (or fling a javelin into a mastadon) began to rate higher in the social scheme of things than the magic of bearing children...religion got its fingers in there too when the notion of a patriarchial god took precedence over a pantheon of balanced dieties...women being viewed as a subset of man was here to stay for thousands of years
and then along came some thinkers...radicals and extremists in some folks' eyes, but really their notions were far less radical than the idea that there is but one god and that he is a him (does anyone truly believe that a just god would create only HALF of humanity in his image?)...planted in the ripe fields of 60s freedoms, the feminism of the 70s exploded with a fierceness rarely seen...these women were heroic and brave and need to be remembered as such
and now we are here at the start of another thousand years and i find myself, a young woman with a child and no desire for a man, being oddly apolitical about the issue of feminism...i rarely think of feminism and for the most part wouldn't consider myself a feminist but i suppose upon deeper reflection i most certainly am
i'm sure that my ability to survive as i have is largely due to the feminist movement of our sisters in the 70s...i work in a profession that now graduates more women than men, but was in the 60s virtually 100% male...i take it for granted that i can do this...i assume my professionalism because nobody questions my right to it
my ability to be an apolitical feminist (to simply be a successful PERSON) means that to a large extent that we have succeeded
not that i'm foolish enough to believe that all is equal, but we've come so very, very far
i don't know, lavender...i should let radicalism rise up within me more often because deep down i suppose i'm one of rush's hated feminazis too (and to be hated by him would be soooo cool)...but it's just so easy anymore to cruise and survive and assume what i know to be true...that i'm an equal match to anybody in this world, no matter how different we may all seem to be
i believe, as texan implied, that there are certain biological differences between men and women that can't be denied, and these differences must not ony be recognized, but celebrated
take me, for instance...sadly lacking (apparently) in testosterone, i'm tiny in stature...clearly if there ever will be a man in my life (not likely, but you never know) it'll be up to him to do the "guy things"...he can twist the lids off of jars and haul the couch up two flights of stairs
fine...cool...i can live with that
for my part of the deal i'll bear the children, which all by itself far outdoes the sum total of everything any man can ever do in my book
the sad thing is, though, that somewhere along the way the ability to twist open a jar (or fling a javelin into a mastadon) began to rate higher in the social scheme of things than the magic of bearing children...religion got its fingers in there too when the notion of a patriarchial god took precedence over a pantheon of balanced dieties...women being viewed as a subset of man was here to stay for thousands of years
and then along came some thinkers...radicals and extremists in some folks' eyes, but really their notions were far less radical than the idea that there is but one god and that he is a him (does anyone truly believe that a just god would create only HALF of humanity in his image?)...planted in the ripe fields of 60s freedoms, the feminism of the 70s exploded with a fierceness rarely seen...these women were heroic and brave and need to be remembered as such
and now we are here at the start of another thousand years and i find myself, a young woman with a child and no desire for a man, being oddly apolitical about the issue of feminism...i rarely think of feminism and for the most part wouldn't consider myself a feminist but i suppose upon deeper reflection i most certainly am
i'm sure that my ability to survive as i have is largely due to the feminist movement of our sisters in the 70s...i work in a profession that now graduates more women than men, but was in the 60s virtually 100% male...i take it for granted that i can do this...i assume my professionalism because nobody questions my right to it
my ability to be an apolitical feminist (to simply be a successful PERSON) means that to a large extent that we have succeeded
not that i'm foolish enough to believe that all is equal, but we've come so very, very far
i don't know, lavender...i should let radicalism rise up within me more often because deep down i suppose i'm one of rush's hated feminazis too (and to be hated by him would be soooo cool)...but it's just so easy anymore to cruise and survive and assume what i know to be true...that i'm an equal match to anybody in this world, no matter how different we may all seem to be
Texan
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just another thought
I have noticed several people saying that women should be able to make choices based upon what they WANT or DESIRE. While I understand the sentiment, let me point out something.
As a man, I have had to make choices based upon what I am CAPABLE of; and based upon what I am good at. In a market driven society where my DESIRES to write or fish or play on the internet all day would leave me in poverty, I am forced to make decisions based upon what I am good at.
To celebrate the differences between men and women is to recognize that many professions are NOT gender specific, while SOME are. It is not demeaning to women to acknowledge that most women are more nuturing than most men; and therefore, will be better at providing care for young children. Nor is is demeaning to women to acknowledge that men will make better football players.
We are different. Thank God for creating us with differences that go beyond our genitals.
I have noticed several people saying that women should be able to make choices based upon what they WANT or DESIRE. While I understand the sentiment, let me point out something.
As a man, I have had to make choices based upon what I am CAPABLE of; and based upon what I am good at. In a market driven society where my DESIRES to write or fish or play on the internet all day would leave me in poverty, I am forced to make decisions based upon what I am good at.
To celebrate the differences between men and women is to recognize that many professions are NOT gender specific, while SOME are. It is not demeaning to women to acknowledge that most women are more nuturing than most men; and therefore, will be better at providing care for young children. Nor is is demeaning to women to acknowledge that men will make better football players.
We are different. Thank God for creating us with differences that go beyond our genitals.
modest mouse
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I didnt say equality was too easy, but rather that your argument was too easy. It is.Gamelover221 said:
True. I agree. The problem I have with your contention is that you are reacting to what is perceived as the commonality, the staus quo now. Rather than approaching it independently and allowing exactly what you suggest, a role each individual can seek and sicover, you end up with societal ping-pong. Each thought/action a reaction to the one before it.
Yet you react negatively to her having a life that may fit 'traditional' gender roles. As I said; reaction. I don't think anyone has stressed the differences between men and women. Recognition of them (in general terms) is, however, crucial to any openness regarding gender and its influence on society and individuals. This is where the use of 'equality' is simplistic.
This is pandering.
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sigh
chant mistress
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Re: just another thought
texan, i may be reading you incorrectly but it sure sounds as if you're suggesting that women don't live within these same constraints...as a woman i too have no desire for poverty and thus must do what i'm good at as well
to a certain degree we all must set our desires aside for leisure time...the reality of life requires it...to think that women are less constrained by reality than men is a woeful perpetuation of old stereotypes
please tell me that i'm wrong in thinking this of you
Texan said:
texan, i may be reading you incorrectly but it sure sounds as if you're suggesting that women don't live within these same constraints...as a woman i too have no desire for poverty and thus must do what i'm good at as well
to a certain degree we all must set our desires aside for leisure time...the reality of life requires it...to think that women are less constrained by reality than men is a woeful perpetuation of old stereotypes
please tell me that i'm wrong in thinking this of you
Laurel
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Feminism is about equality, not homogeneity. Wanting the same legal and financial opportunities as equally qualified men does not mean wanting to become a man. Fanatics like to twist the definition of feminist into something evil & scary to suit their own purposes, but all feminists really want is for women to have the same economic opportunities as everyone else. Not special treatment, not the "upper hand". And thanks in good part to the feminist movement, chicks in my generation have opportunities that our grandmothers do not. I happen to think that's pretty damn cool.
Of course you can be "feminine" and be a feminist. Hell, I know effeminate men who have no interest in Feminism. Feminist is a political term, referring to those who believe women should be judged by their abilities, not by their gender. Are all Conservatives dittoheads? Of course not. The minute you start painting any group with the same brush, you show your ignorance and bias to the world. Life is more complicated than that.
Am I a feminist? I believe that people should be judged by their character, intelligence, and ability - not by their race, sex, religion, or other irrelevent surface qualities. Take that for what it's worth.
Of course you can be "feminine" and be a feminist. Hell, I know effeminate men who have no interest in Feminism. Feminist is a political term, referring to those who believe women should be judged by their abilities, not by their gender. Are all Conservatives dittoheads? Of course not. The minute you start painting any group with the same brush, you show your ignorance and bias to the world. Life is more complicated than that.
Am I a feminist? I believe that people should be judged by their character, intelligence, and ability - not by their race, sex, religion, or other irrelevent surface qualities. Take that for what it's worth.
Interesting thread...
Hmmm... This strikes me as rather close to the Individualism of Ayn Rand and less specific a description than I assumed you were pushing toward...
I would share the elements of conscious freedom, ie. not being culturally 'pushed' to particular choices or limits, though I also have an appreciation of the need for responsible community that I think we in the U.S. under-estimate. (See Alfons Trompenaars & Charles Hampden-Turner "The Seven Cultures of Capitalism" in which they measure national attitudes toward polar values such as Individual - Community. U.S. has an exagerrated emphasis on individual values compared to 10 other countries around the globe).
I think of myself as a feminist to the extent that I value and have taken steps to support equality in hiring, promotion, and evaluations with members of both genders. And I'm tickled by the number of women who espouse feminist theory but use every traditional role advantage they can claim. Balancing gender differences and roles while maintaining equality of opportunity (and compensation) seems to be the challenge at present.
And Damn! I find smart women sexy!
lavender said:
Hmmm... This strikes me as rather close to the Individualism of Ayn Rand and less specific a description than I assumed you were pushing toward...
I would share the elements of conscious freedom, ie. not being culturally 'pushed' to particular choices or limits, though I also have an appreciation of the need for responsible community that I think we in the U.S. under-estimate. (See Alfons Trompenaars & Charles Hampden-Turner "The Seven Cultures of Capitalism" in which they measure national attitudes toward polar values such as Individual - Community. U.S. has an exagerrated emphasis on individual values compared to 10 other countries around the globe).
I think of myself as a feminist to the extent that I value and have taken steps to support equality in hiring, promotion, and evaluations with members of both genders. And I'm tickled by the number of women who espouse feminist theory but use every traditional role advantage they can claim. Balancing gender differences and roles while maintaining equality of opportunity (and compensation) seems to be the challenge at present.
And Damn! I find smart women sexy!
modest mouse
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lavender said:
Which was a mistake in my opinion. Or at least I didn't care for being lumped together with two viewpoints I have major issues with.
Texan
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Re: Re: just another thought
sigh darlin.... yes you misunderstand me.
I think that when a person WANTS something and is not able to achieve it, they will often rationalize their failure. It is possible that SOME women will WANT a certain lifestyle and when they fail to achieve that measure of success, they MAY be inclined to blame "sexist" attitudes for their failure.
Please, I am not painting all women with the same brush here. I merely believe that when a woman is passed over for promotion, it MAY be because she is not as good in the position, NOT because she has hit some "glass ceiling". When a man fails to reach his DESIRED goals, he has no "cause" upon which to lay his failure.
I am only saying that WANTING something does not make it happen, for men or for women. I might WANT to be governor of the great state of Texas, but with all the skeletons in my closet, it aint going to happen. And that has nothing to do with how short my skirt is, or how much makeup I wear....
sigh said:
sigh darlin.... yes you misunderstand me.
I think that when a person WANTS something and is not able to achieve it, they will often rationalize their failure. It is possible that SOME women will WANT a certain lifestyle and when they fail to achieve that measure of success, they MAY be inclined to blame "sexist" attitudes for their failure.
Please, I am not painting all women with the same brush here. I merely believe that when a woman is passed over for promotion, it MAY be because she is not as good in the position, NOT because she has hit some "glass ceiling". When a man fails to reach his DESIRED goals, he has no "cause" upon which to lay his failure.
I am only saying that WANTING something does not make it happen, for men or for women. I might WANT to be governor of the great state of Texas, but with all the skeletons in my closet, it aint going to happen. And that has nothing to do with how short my skirt is, or how much makeup I wear....
RhumbRunner13
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Lavy,
"Maybe there is hope for the next generation of Texas men?"
I think Texan and I, also a Texas male by birth, are older than you by "a few" and just because of our accident of location of birth are neither stupid or unaware of the world around us. Are you being a little prejudiced because we are male.........or from somewhere south of the MDL?
"The irony of this all is that the 1/3 who are radical are usually the ones who are educated."
Sorry, spending four years in a liberal cirriculum being brainwashed that women are superior because they are women is not education, and is the major reason that "Feminism" has reached the sad level that it has today.
Still luv ya,
Runner
"Maybe there is hope for the next generation of Texas men?"
I think Texan and I, also a Texas male by birth, are older than you by "a few" and just because of our accident of location of birth are neither stupid or unaware of the world around us. Are you being a little prejudiced because we are male.........or from somewhere south of the MDL?
"The irony of this all is that the 1/3 who are radical are usually the ones who are educated."
Sorry, spending four years in a liberal cirriculum being brainwashed that women are superior because they are women is not education, and is the major reason that "Feminism" has reached the sad level that it has today.
Still luv ya,
Runner
