Feminism and Submission

[lavender]

 

[Ricckk]

I think it is a delicate balance.

OK, I'm not a woman but I am a feminist.

I think you are correct. If one chooses to be submissive in certain areas of her life it doesn't mean that she doesn't believe in the equality of women. We all submit to something in our life whether it is a job, a group decision, etc.

 

[Parklife]

The problem with trying to discuss feminism and submission is that there are so many strands of feminist thought and submission can have differing relations to each. There is no 'connected' feminist movement currently but rather branches of thought that don't hold the same beliefs. So where as Camille Paglia wouldn't see any conflict, the same can certainly not be said of Catherine McKinnon. Both are respected (at least on some level) feminist but submission would strike each in different ways. And that's only two such branches of thought... not to even begin discussing Mary Dally and her seperatist movements, the French intellectual thought of Irigaray or Kristeva, or even the somewhat contradictory views of traditional liberal feminist like Friedan and Steinem (whose political equality style of feminism sometimes seems to discount the 'differences' of women in exchange for 'honorary men' status).

So, depending on what branch one holds on to, the answer to the question would have some vastly divergent opinions. Of course, asking such a question on a BDSM board would certainly hint at what those responses might be. Go to the NOW boards (if in fact there are any, i don't know) and you might find completely different opinions on the matter.

Park~

 

[Guest]

A strong woman doesn't equal a feminist, though.

True, and I didn't mean to imply that they were one and the same.

I think that 'feminist' is one of those things that is defined by the person who uses the title.

I'm a stay-at-home-mom who firmly believes that some things like cooking and cleaning and caring for the kids should primarily be relegated to the female in the household. I'm submissive sexually. I also consider myself a feminist.

 

[WriterDom]

Historically, the feminists have been very anti-bdsm. Until the lesbian Dommes in the organizations started bitch slapping the complainers. I think most people can separate what goes on behind closed doors and the outside world. There are plenty of excecutive/professional women who are subs.

 

[Calamity Jane]

There are plenty of excecutive/professional women who are subs.

But all executive/professional women aren't feminists.

I agree that it's a delicate balance, but I think a woman who is so totally in touch with her needs and desires and how to go about getting them met is a strong woman. No, they're not all going to be feminists, but I doubt the numbers are that far off from other segments of the population.

I think that the general public needs to move away from the idea that submission = weakness.

 

[Lancecastor]

A third wave feminist or any fully actualized person for that matter doesn't care much about what anyone thinks of their intimate practices, I would think.

I do the things I do with my life for self actualization and in furtherance of my goals and responsibilities.

I would suggest that the way you partner with a mate and the way in which you negotiate a consentual union would speak of and in response to your degree of self-actualization as a whole person.

Presuming you honour your values in choosing a mate, D/s or not, there should be no conflict with your feminist values unless those values are fundamentally anti-mate.

 

[Siren]

 

[A Desert Rose]

well said, and very true.

A professional woman that is in control in the workplace often wants to give that control to someone else in the bedroom.

This is me..... I have been saying this for weeks now. Making decisions and being in charge all day long is very tiring (except this week and last when I am technically on vacation.)

Thank you Siren for seeing that.

 

[evesdream]

just because i like to get spanked doesn't make me less of a feminist

 

[Siren]

 

[lavender]

 

[Siren]

 

[Skitten]

I am a submissive and make decision in the workplace and homelife. I like being able to have someone else in control, and it is not a form of weakness. It is giving yourself totally to one person. A person who is a sub has to be strong within themselves and confident to be able to really submit to the one they love. A sub doesn't mean they are a feminist or they are a weak because they submit.

 

[Lancecastor]

1. Women, do you believe a lifestyle of submission is antithetical to any feminist beliefs you might hold?


2. A strong woman doesn't equal a feminist, though.

Lav, does your second comment modify or change your first comment from the thread starter?

Does the following act as a workable definition of "feminist" for this thread? (if not, please provide)

Feminist : a) a person who believes that women should have political, economic and social rights equal to those of men. b) one who believes the implementation of feminist principles will create a more humane type of political power.

 

[WriterDom]

A strong woman doesn't equal a feminist, though.

No, they could be a dike. But I really don't think the bdsm community has an obligation to meet the feminists or even address their concerns. Our queer sisters have already kicked their asses.

 

[Sandia]

There's no necessary connection between BDSM and feminism on a political level. On a personal level, I think feminist ideology is something a submissive would have to deal with the same way a submissive man would have to contend with masculinism.. if there was such a thing.

 

[MissTaken]

A feminist isn't exactly a "kick ass power bitch." AS PCG so nicely pointed out, one can be a feminist and actually be in a more traditional woman's role, i,e, homemaker, housewife.

It seems to me that a feminist believes women deserve and have a right to voice. A submissive has voice as well as a female entrepreneur, as well as a female attorney, as well as a kick ass, lesbian Domme.

It is simply that she choses when she gives up her voice.

Feminism and BDSM are two separate issues.

 

[maddi]

<b>Feminist : a) a person who believes that women should have political, economic and social rights equal to those of men. b) one who believes the implementation of feminist principles will create a more humane type of political power.<b>

i have always been taught that being a feminist meant having the same abilities as everyone else to make decisions affecting my life. I.E. I can now vote, my husband doesn't have the right to do it for me. I also have the right to have any job that I want if I can physically do it. I.E. If I am really physically fit I can be a firefighter. or that I can now choose to have sex when I want or not. Which by the way in this country not so long ago many married women were forcibly raped numerous times by husbands. (I think that is why so many dested sex- pre 1950's)

So as a feminist and stay at home mompentuneur (home business) I choose to be a submissive. I am a feminist but also I have made the choices that make me happy and that is pure feminism being able to decide my own fate.

That is what the origional women sufferagetts were after, weren't they?

 

[Ebonyfire]

I am a humanist

I do not consider myself a feminist. I am in the generation of women who did not agree with the platform and how it affected black women back in the day. so I consider myself a humanist.

The feminist movement did nothing for Me as an black woman, so I feel no allegiance to it. I have always had to champion my own rights, and frankly after "representing the race" for the last 40 years as well as carving my own niche in the world, I think that I and other successful black women have seen great improvement for younger black women. My daughter has not had to put up with what I put up with, as I did not have to put up with what my mother put up with.

As for my dominance, it is helped Me survive.

Ebony

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: I am a humanist

I do not consider myself a feminist. I am in the generation of women who did not agree with the platform and how it affected black women back in the day. so I consider myself a humanist.

The feminist movement did nothing for Me as an black woman, so I feel no allegiance to it. I have always had to champion my own rights, and frankly after "representing the race" for the last 40 years as well as carving my own niche in the world, I think that I and other successful black women have seen great improvement for younger black women. My daughter has not had to put up with what I put up with, as I did not have to put up with what my mother put up with.

As for my dominance, it is helped Me survive.

Ebony

I agree with a lot of what eb says, although I have not shared her life experiences.

Furthermore, I see no conflict with submissiveness and feminism, nor do I see it as a dichotomy. There is just nothing to really discuss here.

 

[lark sparrow]

I think there were extreme values in *some* circles of feminism that pornography = exploitation of all women, SM sex = violence, D/s = traditional male/female roles, which all relates back to the internalized patriarchy, and shame on you as a woman (hetero or homosexual, sub or Domme) for participating. WriterDom touched on some of the conflicts.

This doesn't fall into the general definition of a feminist for most. I can see how in theory it could be a delicate balance, but it seems one of the bottom lines for all is that it should be about choice - the knowledge and freedom to have it.

 

[Ricckk]

.......no self assured and confident Dom wants a clingy, manipulative and spineless sub.

Amen.

Originally when I said that I am a feminist, I meant that I am a feminist as a part of being a humanist.

 

[Michael42]

Susie Bright addresses this question throughout her career (see- "Sexual State of the Union.---Susie has been a feminist author, Professor and hot kinky lesbian for 35 years, Publisher and founder of On Our Backs magazine

 

[artful]

Maddi,...

So as a feminist and stay at home mompentuneur (home business) I choose to be a submissive. I am a feminist but also I have made the choices that make me happy and that is pure feminism being able to decide my own fate.

That is what the origional women sufferagetts were after, weren't they?

FIRST,...welcome to the Forum,...please call me Art.

SECOND,...I think your opinion has pretty well stated the truth of the matter.

THIRD and final,...I would add that labelling, is the danger we all tend to confuse real issues, as contrary to supposed issues.

Political Activist Committees, (PAC'S), are formed for many reasons. Sometimes out of need, sometimes out of purely selfish reasons,...and the list goes on. Personally, I agree there has been a lot of good come out of the Feminist Movement.

However, as with most other PAC'S, there also has been a lot of confusion, and misinformation that has come along with it. Though it is mostly done behind closed doors, because of the suffragettes, war has silently been declared between the sexes.

The battles take place daily, and in many forms. BDSM is not immune to this confusion and misinformation. Two people engaged in a D/s relationship, are open to public attack and censorship, within most of our society.

Another case of labelling, which further alienates the general populace. MOST women *frown* upon other women who openly submit to a man to direct and guide their relationship, even when the sub publicly states, "This is what I want, this is what I need"!

Most people, (male/female both), *frown* even worse, when they see a male submit openly, to either a male or female Dom/me. The issue of freedom, rights, and feminism, will be debated for years after I am dead and gone.

Only when the misinformation is recognised for what it is, will the confusion be put to rest. I doubt this ever happens, but I am not immortal, nor omniscient, (I could be wrong).

Once again,...welcome to the Forum, I hope to read many more of your posts, on the subjects that interest you.