Extereme Moral Decisions

[JaymesBlond007]

The night before last, my mother had a party to celebrate her retirement. As my family began to arrive, we all eventually flocked to the same table, talking about our current lives as we usually do. (Before you jump to any conclusions, please continue to read past this next part.) Now my cousins, myself, and my brother are all born within ten years of each other, my brother being the oldest, me the next and so on, so we have a very strong emotional bond.

She has graduated from college and now manages a family owned drugstore. She began to talk about one day last week, and I noticed her expression begin to change. She was telling me about this guy who had come in to the store to buy a greeting card, that was wearing one of those ski hats/beanies and a pair of sunglasses. Being in south Austin, this wasn't to out of the ordinary so nobody really piad any attention...until he withdrew a handgun

That's right, she was being robbed at gunpoint.

My little cousin Amy.

My 20yr. old, 5ft. nothing, 100 pound, blond haired, green eyed, cousin. He proceeded to command everyone to kneel on the floor, place their head on the ground, and clasp their hands behind them...MY FUCKING COUSIN!

She just stared at me. "Christian," she said, "I just knew he was going to shoot us in the head."

MY FUCKING COUSIN!!

The man had previously written out a list of drugs and was now demanding them with threats of physical harm and/or death. Appearantly the man stated that his wife has been diagnosed with cancer and he has no insurance nor could he afford the drugs himself. I feel for his wife, I really do. Certain parts of me even harbor sympathy for the guy as well. But playing God is not the answer.

Now here's the kicker...

Some fuckin' bitch that had been sitting at the table blurts out, " Well if his wife had cancer, then I don't blame him.".

What!? What the FUCK was that noise you just regurgitated!?

I wanted to. I reeeally wanted to. This girl continued to speak, I would assume to defend the previous fart that just came out of her mouth, but I couldn't hear her. I couldn't hear anything. I watched myself, in one deft motion, jump across that table and snatch that woman's life with my bare hands.

One simple question. Does the means justify the exremes? I want to reiterate the sorrow I felt for this man and his wife. I know what a shitty hand life can deal people at times. But does that compensate for his actions? Did he make a fair decision?

This might not even be a good thread. I never really know what to post here. I see so many complaints about shitty threads, I'm usually too scared to post anything for fear of looking like a jackass. If nothing else, a few snide remarks about that daffy bitch at our table would be greatly appreaciated.

 

[seXieleXie]

he didn't hurt your cousin. he scared her but never hurt anyone. how do you know he would have? how do you know the gun was even loaded? you don't, and neither do it.

i am not saying what he did was okay, but i am saying i understand. if my child or spouse was dying and i didn't see any other way to keep him/her alive... i could see myself doing that. it wouldn't be right, it wouldn't be okay, but it could happen.

 

[Andreina]

it is the chicken & egg question again....

 

[ksmybuttons]

Scared can be VERY hurt.

he didn't hurt your cousin. he scared her but never hurt anyone. how do you know he would have? how do you know the gun was even loaded? you don't, and neither do it.

Being scared in a manner caused purposely by another person hurts very badly.

There is violation of your rights to the extreme.

Not actually being shot doesn't change how a person views their safety for the future.

My heart goes out to your cousin, Jaymes. She just received a big hunk of new baggage to deal with.

 

[seXieleXie]

i'm not saying that this wasn't a terrible experiance for jaymes' cousin. however, she will get over it. she has the love and support of her family to help her.

this is a bad situation for everyone involved, i'm just saying that i see both sides.

 

[JaymesBlond007]

He didn't hurt her?

This didn't happen to me, and I had horrible dreams about it. He did hurt her. I wish everyone could have look in to this childs eyes.

It took me until early this morning to even open the,"Have you ever raped anyone?" thread. That shit really bothers me. That man raped my cousin. He emotionally raped her of her right to feel safe at work. Her right to trust the next man that happens to be wearing sunglasses. I went in to it a whole lot more in my other post. If you wan't to read my mindless babble go check it out.

I strongly feel that this man certainly did hurt her. His wife was sick and that truely is sad. But it is not anyones place to say when it's time to die. That was a selfish thing that man did. A characteristic I'm begging to see alot more of as I get older and it really scares me.

 

[seXieleXie]

first of all, i did read your first post jaymes.

second of all, i said many times that i am not condoning this man's actions. i wasn't suggesting that your cousin didn't suffer over this.

try to quell your emotional response cause by the fear you have for your cousin. try to think a little more than you feel.

 

[ksmybuttons]

In my moral belief system,

The man who's wife has cancer has no right, at any time, to go after innocent people and do something so horrible to them.

The medications that he needs can be provided by many other means than gun point. There are many channels to get them. For one reason or another he has chosen not to take those channels or find out what they are.

The woman at the table was totally thoughtless to not acknowledge what happened as something horrible.

Jaymes, how you reacted to the woman is totally your response and is it truly any better than the man who would pulled a gun on your cousin?

 

[Dynamite]

I understand why he did it,

but I feel it was inappropriate actions. His wife may have been hurting, but he hurt someone else because of that fact.

He hurt your cousin emotionally. She will be very wary of people for now on. She needs to seek counseling even if she objects. Although she may not feel it now, she could in her subconscious.

 

[JaymesBlond007]

I'm just posting again...

What is everyone's fear of death? Why is everbody so afraid to die? Is it the fear of not knowing what awaits you? I haven't got a clue what is going to happen to me, but I'm not running around waiving a gun in everyones face.

People need to accept the fact that we die. We all die. Nothing you, or I, or anyone can say will change that. That mans actions did nothing to change the status of his poor wife. She not only still has cancer, but she is now married to an armed robber!
Please tell me I'm not the only one that sees this as being totally fucked up!

BTW. I started writing this immidiately after my last post, so it probably won't answer anyone's questions.

Just getting the lead out, ya know?

 

[seXieleXie]

jaymes... if your cousin or brother had cancer, to what ends would you go to save them? would you be willing to go to prison to relieve their suffering?

 

[stargazer]

I do not feel what that man did was right. You sound like you have a loving family, your cousin is blessed. You said the store was family owned. If that man had come in and talked to the family, it looks to me that the family might have supported him and his wife with their situation and worked something out as far as payment for the drugs. What is his recourse now? What he did was wrong as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ksmybuttons]

Ethics

There are many ways to solve a problem here in our wonderful country. There are many ethics panels of all ilk that are available to people to help sort the dilemma.

No one need go to prison to save a life of another.

 

[MissTaken]

I would agree that the man was not justified in how he tried to get the medication.

There are alternate avenues he could have pursued. Some equally as extreme, but legal and non hurtful.

Certainly, regardless of physical harm, your cousin has been a victim and will have some serious issues to work through. Thank God, she has a loving and supportive family. Anytime our "safe place" is violated, we do respond as though rape has occured.

I am sorry to have to agree with you on this point, as I am sure it brings no comfort. She may chose to seek counseling. There are many free agencies for victims of violent acts vis a vis fed legislation and monies.

Take care and hugs.....

Oh. And on the flip side, having had to manage cancer in my personal life....I still cannot condone the man's actions.

 

[seXieleXie]

ksmybuttons....do you think joe average knows that? do you think this man did?

 

[JaymesBlond007]

Originally posted by seXieleXie
jaymes... if your cousin or brother had cancer, to what ends would you go to save them? would you be willing to go to prison to relieve their suffering?

My grandmother died of terminal lung and brain cancer last year. She has been the only person in our family to pass away, hence my only real experience with death. This lady, she was a Saint by any standards, and I was bothered that she was the first person in our family that I had to let go.

Now my family has some money. We could have hooked her up to some machine and tacked many more years to her life. She didn't want that. We didn't want that. So we called Hospice, layed her in her bed, and comforted her in her final months.

I read your post regarding my emotional zeal. I wish I could slow down and be a little more "right-brained" at times. But I am an artist to the core. Completely and helplessly connected to my emotions. That is the main reason I appologize for so much of the shit that I throw up here. Because I realize how "left-field" it is. Most of you probably think I'm nuts by now.

 

[seXieleXie]

i'm sorry about your grandmother.

i do not think that is the same situation as this man was in. his wife was probably a lot younger than your grandmother. maybe they had kids, maybe young kids.

i'm not saying it was right, i'm saying i understand.

 

[JaymesBlond007]

Thank you

I know you understand leXie, and in know way am I tying to argue with you or say your wrong. At All. Believe me, the same crap has been running through my head... "Well he probably has nobody else and he's probably scared to be alone.", and all of life's wonderful little suprises. I go over scenario over, and over, and over not knowing exactly what I should feel, but definately feeling a lot of anger.

And that is very selfish on my part. I automatically assume everyone thinks as you and I would.

Again, I hope you don't feel as if I'm targeting you as a release for my emotions.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Sometimes the ends do justify the means - such as when a person must defend themselves by using lethal force against lethal force, but to use lethal force against innocents, especially when other means are available, then no, the ends do not justify the means.

In this case, the man was not only risking the life of innocent people not involved or responsible for his predicament (which was totally inexcusable and immoral), but he was also risking his own life when he was responsible for his wife's care. He had not right to risk his life this way; if he had been caught and gone to prison, or worse, if he had been killed, who is going to care for his wife then?

No, it was not reasonable, it was not rational, it was not excusable in any way shape or form, and it was only slightly less immoral than someone performing the same action for purely selfish reasons. I understand his motivation, but his actions were not understandable.

Saying you understand why someone commits an evil action does not excuse or condone those actions - it just means that you comprehend how someone could be driven so hard emotionally and how they could do something so irrational.

I can understand how someone can steal and even murder for purely selfish reasons - that understanding has no bearing on the morality of the actions or outcome.

As for "blame" - the person who stated they didn't blame this person was not thinking rationally when they made that statement, and probably still isn't thinking rationally. I believe 90% of people very rarely have a rational thought intrude into their consciousness, they almost always just let purely emotional thought rattle around in their heads and that is what comes dribbling out of their mouths.

 

[JaymesBlond007]

Originally posted by Shy Tall Guy
I believe 90% of people very rarely have a rational thought intrude into their consciousness, they almost always just let purely emotional thought rattle around in their heads and that is what comes dribbling out of their mouths.

And we all enjoy gathering right here at Lit.

 

[patient1]

I think LeXie was only saying..

i am not saying what he did was okay, but i am saying i understand. if my child or spouse was dying and i didn't see any other way to keep him/her alive... i could see myself doing that. it wouldn't be right, it wouldn't be okay, but it could happen.

1)She agrees what the man did was plain wrong morally.

2)She understands that hopeless frustration can lead to desperate acts of passion.



We all agree that this man was morally wrong.

It was after all, hopeless frustration that made you want to choke that woman to death. We understand that, too.

James, I'm glad you feel deeply, & I'm proud of you for controlling yourself in a social setting, & holding your tongue at the time.

 

[fallon2]

Right

Jaymes, I absolutely right. Just because he he had problems is no excuse to do what he did. Hell, we ALL have problems but we don't take them out on other people. What the guy did to the people in the store is something that WILL traumatize them for years to come.
One more thing . . . we all have relatives that make you want to grab them by the throat from time to time. And if looks could kill . . . *smile*

 

[phrodeau]

How much terrorism is acceptable? How much terrorism is justified by circumstances? At what level is terrorism mild enough to permit and understand?

Threatening a child with spanking?
Threatening a stranger for money?
Threatening a classroom for respect?
Threatening a crowd for vengeance?
Threatening a country out of zealotry?

 

[ksmybuttons]

ksmybuttons....do you think joe average knows that? do you think this man did?

The average joe can find out. It is a life attitude. You question and you find out. You don't get the answer you want? Go to someone else.

What I find is that people who give into hopelessness let other things stand in the way of finding answers. I run into many people who are not average, such as this man.

Some are not willing to try some of the available solutions. The solution is there, but they have not taken the steps to learn or refuse to listen. One of my favorites is the person who is so busy demanding their rights that they are rude and alienate the very people who can help them the most. Not very successful.

Sometimes I need to take a deep breath, step back from my endocrine system and re-evaluate. If the danger is not immediate, I try to use the gray matter first.

This man did not.

 

[Unclebill]

Originally posted by JaymesBlond007
. . Some fuckin' bitch that had been sitting at the table blurts out, " Well if his wife had cancer, then I don't blame him.". . .

I completely understand your frustration when faced with this level of ignorance or evil. I have no way of knowing which but I can see no rational alternative. Either she is ignorant and doesn't understand that armed robbery is a criminal act or she's viciously evil because she knows it's a crime and doesn't care. Either way, she's dangerous.

And this is what I would offer her as my appraisal of her behavior and ask her if she had an alternative explanation that was reasonable and rational. I seriously doubt she will have one; she's probably operating on nothing other than emotion.

And I fully understand the immediate desire to lash out physically and take some asshole like that by the throat and shake some sense into them. But trust, me, it doesn't work. And by doing so, you degrade yourself to their level.

The best chance is to suppress your anger and lash out verbally and intellectually in a very calm, measured tone clearly stating the horror of her position.

Originally posted by ksmybuttons
In my moral belief system,

The man who's wife has cancer has no right, at any time, to go after innocent people and do something so horrible to them.

The medications that he needs can be provided by many other means than gun point. There are many channels to get them. For one reason or another he has chosen not to take those channels or find out what they are.

The woman at the table was totally thoughtless to not acknowledge what happened as something horrible.

Jaymes, how you reacted to the woman is totally your response and is it truly any better than the man who would pulled a gun on your cousin?

You are right. This is not acceptable to any rational morality.

It has seen too much acceptance in a nation where the rights of the individual is supposed to be the prime value to be preserved and protected.

We have now a government which practices precisely what people are condemning this thug for doing. I don't care how sick he or his wife might be, it does not give him any legitimacy to resort to the role of criminal and threaten the lives or well being of others.

One another thread, a similar situation was approached in the hypothetical realm. My response there applies so I won't repeat it.

Originally posted by seXieleXie
jaymes... if your cousin or brother had cancer, to what ends would you go to save them? would you be willing to go to prison to relieve their suffering?

The reality of what you're asking is, "Would you hurt someone else to relieve their suffering?"

That I find a despicable idea. How can you even entertain the thought of harming one person to relieve the suffering of another? This is morally equivalent to the idea of human sacrifice where one person's life is sacrificed for the supposed benefit of others.

This is the embodiment of the altruist philosophy. The individual has no intrinsic value. The only value of any person is their value to the collective, to the whole of humanity.

Originally posted by JaymesBlond007
. . . Now my family has some money. . .

From what I read above, I strongly doubt that if your family did not have the money that you would not have tried to steal at gunpoint the money to achieve what you wanted as did the thug who held your cousin at gunpoint. It's the difference between the civilized man and the thug.

And what would your grandmother have said to you and thought of you had you done something so despicable and she found out about it? I venture a guess she would have disowned you.

Originally posted by Shy Tall Guy
. . . No, it was not reasonable, it was not rational, it was not excusable in any way shape or form, and it was only slightly less immoral than someone performing the same action for purely selfish reasons. I understand his motivation, but his actions were not understandable. . .

I believe 90% of people very rarely have a rational thought intrude into their consciousness, they almost always just let purely emotional thought rattle around in their heads and that is what comes dribbling out of their mouths.

I'll take issue with this. His actions are no less immoral that any other criminal. Motivation is immaterial to the harm done to the innocent. His actions were for purely and entirely "selfish" motives; he wanted his wife's suffering to be relieved and he didn't give a damn who else might be hurt or killed. And I hope the jury isn't gullible enough or immoral enough to give this thug a pass because his motive was noble.

His motive was NOT noble; it was to take what he wasn't willing to seek through other means. And if he hurt someone innocent, well, he wasn't really concerned about that. Benevolent motivation my ass!

As to the percentage of irrational, I guess my optimism at least makes me hope it's not quite that bad although I fear you are far too close in your estimate based on what I observe around me.

I see far too many people who want to cal themselves Americans who are co-opted by and are advocating collectivism, an idea that is the antithesis of what Americas stand for.

BTW, is your AV a Muppet character? It looks vaguely familiar but I can't place it.

Originally posted by phrodeau
How much terrorism is acceptable? How much terrorism is justified by circumstances? At what level is terrorism mild enough to permit and understand?

Threatening a child with spanking?
Threatening a stranger for money?
Threatening a classroom for respect?
Threatening a crowd for vengeance?
Threatening a country out of zealotry?

For your question first, NO level of terrorism is tolerable. So let's analyze the flaw in the way you present the situations:

Threatening a child with spanking? DISCIPLINE - appropriate and necessary for a civilized society for it's children to learn discipline and self control.
Threatening a stranger for money? CRIMNAL BEHAVIOR - never tolerable whether by the individual or the group.
Threatening a classroom for respect? DISCIPLINE - Try educating any group when there is no discipline or respect for legitimate authority.
Threatening a crowd for vengeance? Huh? - This sounds like it might be crowd (or mob) control which is a sensible action of protecting innocent people from a gang of thugs. But I must admit I'm a little puzzled by the way this is presented.
Threatening a country out of zealotry? SELF-DEFENSE - Protection of a nation's citizens against threats/acts of violence from an enemy.

Originally posted by ksmybuttons
The average joe can find out. It is a life attitude. You question and you find out. You don't get the answer you want? Go to someone else. . . . This man did not.

And even had he exhausted all possible alternatives, he still cannot be excused nor have his actions justified on any rational basis. The only people who can attempt to justify and excuse his action is those who wish to elevate emotion as superior to reason. And in so doing, they can legitimize anything as long as they can generate emotional appeal.