Exactly why can't a Dom have a collar?

[FurryFury]

When I was at the demo and play party, there was this lovely young girl there. I mean she was just a radiant, fresh, darling looking girl who was also clearly kinky. When the demo was almost ready to start, several people removed or changed clothes. She came up to me and another lady saying, "Would someone collar me, I really want to be collared."

Well, I hated to turn her down but there was no way I was going to do such a simple thing as put her proffered collar on her not knowing what it would mean to her, anyone else in the room including the young male she had collared but knowing what it "should" mean to me and that it wasn't a game or simple affection in my mind.

I mean it's fine if she wanted to wear that collar. It's fine that she wanted to kneel and have any other random person put it on her but it didn't work for me at all to be involved.

The other lady did collar her. I, as the night wore on, found her to be submissive. So I'm not sure what it meant to her either.

Fury

 

[jadefirefly]

With all of the above said, I'll be bowing out of this thread now.

Thank you all for listening, or not, as your choice may have been. When I begin to repeat myself, well, repeatedly... either my points are not being heard, or they are being ignored, or I am barking up a brick wall.

Either way, none of the above appeal to me, so I'm out.

I'm told it's a faux pas to quote yourself, but I am doing this for you, Catalina.

When you can point out to me where I have been rude, or "stomped off" in the above statement, I will acede your point.

I chose to remove myself from a conversation where I was obviously in a losing debate, thereby conceding the field to the experienced, rule-following, accepted crowd.

To be precise, it was approximately three of my posts ago that I may have been considered rude. At the above point, correct me if I am wrong, I believe I was being fairly civil, if not outright polite.

I came, I made my statement, I was obviously outnumbered, I left. I am sorry you feel it necessary to accuse me of being childish and close-minded.

What I see is you, refusing to accept *his* POV. I see you saying "It doesn't fit, therefore it is wrong." I see me saying "Well, sure, it's not normal, but if it makes you happy..."

Don't we have enough jerks out there who think what we do doesn't fit, and is therefore wrong, without turning on our own for being different?

Don't ever accuse me of not accepting someone else's POV. I may push those limits, I may demand to know why, but do not *ever* accuse me of being unaccepting or close-minded. THAT is rude. I was under the assumption you were above that sort of thing.

 

[shy slave]

A small rant

I know two Doms who wear collars.
One has two subs one has a wife who is his sub.
No-one ever mistakes them for anything other than Doms.

This thread has amused me.
So often on Lit we hear people saying its 'your BDSM' whatever 'floats your boat' and 'everyone is different'

Yet, on a question of collars, the goal posts change.
Is this because there is a history to wearing them as well as a symbolism, or like religion do we just cherry pick the bits we want to follow?
I am not going to argue, have been doing that alot around here and its never a popular move.

BUT I am going to have a small rant and comment on this part of a post

Yes, it is wrong.

Yes, it harms others. It harms those who are trying to learn the proper way to live the lifestyle. No, not My version of what is proper, rather what is the accepted norm across the board with those who are serious about this lifestyle, as opposed to those who think it's some kind of game.

I actually didn't know whether to be amazed, slightly mad or amused at this post.

A Dom wearing a collar is only wrong to those who deem it as wrong.
It is not morally or legally wrong, it a choice just like everything else in life.
It does not harm others, beatings to death, rape, mental abuse beyond endurance; they harm. Wearing a collar harms no-one.

You say 'your version,' well each to their own, but please don't imagine that pontificating about 'the lifestyle,' can be used as a means to explain your reasoning.

The world has changed 'the lifestyle,' what does that mean?
Whatever the roots of leather, BDSM or Gor or any other derivative, the internet and freedom of speech has made all of this available to anyone, not just people who follow the rules, whatever they are.
I have yet to see or hear of the definative rule book.

I know people who live 24/7 and people who are D/s bedroom only and people who are online only. They are living their lifestyle. I don't know people in real life who treat it as a game. they may see it as fun, enjoyable as well as many other things, but not a game.

I am not 'collared' it all seems unnecessary to both of us, yet I am owned.
There are times I wear a collar, sometimes its for practical reasons, sometimes its for aesthetic reasons its individual to us, not to a rule book about 'the lifestyle'
I explain to people I am owned (if they ask or I think they need to know).

If a Dom or Domme wants to wear a collar I cannot see what business that is of mine or anyone elses.
As a final note, sometimes on here its difficlult to figure out if people are male/female/PYL/pyl or switch.
Collar or not, its always been obvious to me that Mac is a Dom. If you can figure that out on the 'net surely figuring it out in r/l must be even easier?

 

[Recidiva]

I know two Doms who wear collars.
One has two subs one has a wife who is his sub.
No-one ever mistakes them for anything other than Doms.

This thread has amused me.
So often on Lit we hear people saying its 'your BDSM' whatever 'floats your boat' and 'everyone is different'

Yet, on a question of collars, the goal posts change.
Is this because there is a history to wearing them as well as a symbolism, or like religion do we just cherry pick the bits we want to follow?
I am not going to argue, have been doing that alot around here and its never a popular move.

BUT I am going to have a small rant and comment on this part of a post


I actually didn't know whether to be amazed, slightly mad or amused at this post.

A Dom wearing a collar is only wrong to those who deem it as wrong.
It is not morally or legally wrong, anymore than several other BDSM acts or fetishes are wrong.

It does not harm others, beatings to death, rape, mental abuse beyond endurance; they harm. Wearing a collar harms no-one.

You say 'your version,' well each to their own, but please don't imagine that pontificating about 'the lifestyle,' can be used as a means to explain your reasoning.

The world has changed 'the lifestyle,' what does that mean?
Whatever the roots of leather, BDSM or Gor or any other derivative, the internet and freedom of speech has made all of this available to anyone, not just people who follow the rules, whatever they are.
I have yet to see or hear of the definative rule book.

I know people who live 24/7 and people who are D/s bedroom only and people who are online only. They are living their lifestyle. I don't know people in real life who treat it as a game. they may see it as fun, enjoyable as well as many other things, but not a game.

I am not 'collared' it all seems unnecessary to both of us, yet I am owned.
There are times I wear a collar, sometimes its for practical reasons, sometimes its for aesthetic reasons its individual to us, not to a rule book about 'the lifestyle'
I explain to people I am owned (if they ask or I think they need to know).

If a Dom or Domme wants to wear a collar I cannot see what business that is of mine or anyone elses.
As a final note, sometimes on here its difficlult to figure out if people are male/female/PYL/pyl or switch.
Collar or not its always been obvious to me that Mac is a Dom. If you can figure that out on the 'net surely figuring it out in r/l must be even easier?

You can do whatever you want, but there are conventions.

So if a person goes out wearing a simple band on the traditional "wedding" finger, you're not going to assume something?

As far as I can tell, he wasn't laughed out of the place, but people asked clarifying questions.

It's like asking someone "So, you're married? I see a ring." And the answer is "Why does everyone assume I'm married just because I'm wearing a gold band here! Isn't there any room for individuality!?"

Of course there is, but if you're going to use a specific symbol, don't take offense at questions about it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm told it's a faux pas to quote yourself, but I am doing this for you, Catalina.

When you can point out to me where I have been rude, or "stomped off" in the above statement, I will acede your point.

I chose to remove myself from a conversation where I was obviously in a losing debate, thereby conceding the field to the experienced, rule-following, accepted crowd.

To be precise, it was approximately three of my posts ago that I may have been considered rude. At the above point, correct me if I am wrong, I believe I was being fairly civil, if not outright polite.

I came, I made my statement, I was obviously outnumbered, I left. I am sorry you feel it necessary to accuse me of being childish and close-minded.

What I see is you, refusing to accept *his* POV. I see you saying "It doesn't fit, therefore it is wrong." I see me saying "Well, sure, it's not normal, but if it makes you happy..."

Don't we have enough jerks out there who think what we do doesn't fit, and is therefore wrong, without turning on our own for being different?

Don't ever accuse me of not accepting someone else's POV. I may push those limits, I may demand to know why, but do not *ever* accuse me of being unaccepting or close-minded. THAT is rude. I was under the assumption you were above that sort of thing.

Did I accuse you of being childish or are those your words? I don't recall saying that at all. I guess I am a bit old fashioned being a grannie, but when people start using fuck etc. as a means to convey their message, and being hostile about people not agreeing and resorting to such such language, I consider it rude at the very least..and when they say they are out of the thread based on the fact they do not agree with what others have said, I see it as stomping off. But you are still here which must mean something given you siad you were going.

As to turning on our own, from what I saw it was just pointed out why people were misunderstanding O'Mac which he didn't feel he understood...that is presenting factual information and explanation to his questions, not turning on someone. Unfortunately, most of us find we cannot agree 100% with anyone 100% of the time...sharing our POV should not attract statements such as "Fuck that noise. ... Trying opening that mind a little bit....I'm so fucking sick of people who decide whether you fit in or not based off some stupid fucking clothes" which to me were rude and unnecessary reactions to people presenting their opinion.

You seem incensed they present facts of the lifestyle and do not share your view, suggesting we open our minds and acccept others might not agree, but you do not see yourself as having to do the same instead coming out with four letter words and accusations of narrow mindedness. Sorry, you are entitled to communicate however you want, but I did not see it as a situation that warrented such an explosion, and life experience has taught me that when you start using such language to put across your POV, you lose many people's attention and respect. Not to mention if you are going to berate people for not acting in a certain way, it sort of falls flat when you do worse and don't act the way you yourself specify as being correct and appropriate, don't you think?

Catalina
__________________

 

[catalina_francisco]

I know two Doms who wear collars.
One has two subs one has a wife who is his sub.
No-one ever mistakes them for anything other than Doms.

This thread has amused me.
So often on Lit we hear people saying its 'your BDSM' whatever 'floats your boat' and 'everyone is different'

Yet, on a question of collars, the goal posts change.
Is this because there is a history to wearing them as well as a symbolism, or like religion do we just cherry pick the bits we want to follow?
I am not going to argue, have been doing that alot around here and its never a popular move.

BUT I am going to have a small rant and comment on this part of a post


I actually didn't know whether to be amazed, slightly mad or amused at this post.

A Dom wearing a collar is only wrong to those who deem it as wrong.
It is not morally or legally wrong, it a choice just like everything else in life.
It does not harm others, beatings to death, rape, mental abuse beyond endurance; they harm. Wearing a collar harms no-one.

You say 'your version,' well each to their own, but please don't imagine that pontificating about 'the lifestyle,' can be used as a means to explain your reasoning.

The world has changed 'the lifestyle,' what does that mean?
Whatever the roots of leather, BDSM or Gor or any other derivative, the internet and freedom of speech has made all of this available to anyone, not just people who follow the rules, whatever they are.
I have yet to see or hear of the definative rule book.

I know people who live 24/7 and people who are D/s bedroom only and people who are online only. They are living their lifestyle. I don't know people in real life who treat it as a game. they may see it as fun, enjoyable as well as many other things, but not a game.

I am not 'collared' it all seems unnecessary to both of us, yet I am owned.
There are times I wear a collar, sometimes its for practical reasons, sometimes its for aesthetic reasons its individual to us, not to a rule book about 'the lifestyle'
I explain to people I am owned (if they ask or I think they need to know).

If a Dom or Domme wants to wear a collar I cannot see what business that is of mine or anyone elses.
As a final note, sometimes on here its difficlult to figure out if people are male/female/PYL/pyl or switch.
Collar or not, its always been obvious to me that Mac is a Dom. If you can figure that out on the 'net surely figuring it out in r/l must be even easier?

I agree in part shy, but like many others here and elsewhere, we do rely on certain things to inform us and no matter who a person is, changing the signs and signals that the majority goes by does not make communication easy, and unfortunately there has been a frequency of people willing to say 'whatever floats your boat' while behind the back of the person saying quite the opposite and viewing such changes as ridiculous...their words, not mine, but basically unless we want to operate in a community where everything has to be explained to each otherr in minute detail to understand what and where people come from, we need to maintain some formal understanding.

I often see it as being arrogant when something that is highly recognised as such a symbol by the majority is suggested by someone to reverse the meaning to the opposite..it sends a message, whether intended or otherwise, that they are rewriting the rules according to themselves and to hell with anyone who does not like it. I am for freedom, but there are limits and if we all go around assigning our own personal slants and whims to things that are commonly understood, what is the point?...may as well just go vanilla and say we are kinky and hope we find someone on the same wavelength just by accident because they surely won't know what to think by our saying we are submissive anymore. As I mentioned before, where does that leave the use of safewords, the meaning behind saying you are submissive or Dominant (especially when seeking a partner)? If I read in a personal ad that someone is submissive or Dominant, I have a general idea of what that means...I would be very surprised to find the person identifying as submissive actually wanted to fill what I understood to be the role of Dominant and vice versa simply because they felt like changing the commonly held understanding we all operate by. Why would a person feel compelled to do that? I really don't see it as that different, especially when you are talking in terms of opposite meanings and opposite symbolisation. Sort of works towards confusing a community that already has plenty of confusion and diversity surrounding it.

Catalina

 

[rosco rathbone]

What is needed is some kind of international regulatory body of bdsm to prevent the watering down of traditions and to adjudicate in all bdsm matters. This body would have the final say in what does or does not constitute the symbols, rituals, modes and methods.

 

[Kajira Callista]

It's weird, but I've had so many people in the last couple of days online remark about a particular image of me wearing a collar. One friend just happend to notice and made the comment along the lines of: "Craig, what's with the collar? You some sorta slave or something?"

Needless to say I lost it on him completely. I mean, just because I have a collar on, how does that automatically signify that I belong to someone else as opposed to belong WITH someone, or just wearing it for my own self-gratification? If a person protrays a submissive personality or slave-like tendencies, one could easily figure out that the collar is meant to signify they are owned. But what about a person with an obviously Dominant personality? Why would the presence of a collar create confusion?

Truth be told, I've met quite a few experienced Doms who wear their own distinct collars and they have had the same comments made. Is this a natural assumption on the part of the ill-informed or am I and several others I know breaking some sort of recognized convention?

*snaps on the leash and drags him away*

 

[O'Mac]

First off, I honestly didn't think this thread would invoke some very passionate responses from people. I'll admit at first I was just blowing off a little steam when I posted, but let me clarify I wasn't really overly upset with my friend (we call each other bastards all the time, it's a male bonding thing. L*), but I didn't wish death upon him or anything like that.

The point of my randon pseudo-rant was to see if anyone else had come across the same situation before and what they thought of it. While I admit that recognizable conventions or symbols are helpful for some in the lifestyle, is there a chance that by over-doing it we create an environment of style over substance?

Like I said, I'm not the only Dom I know who wears a collar (incidentally, the ones I've seen on Doms and my own are distinctly more intimidating then those on most subs) and I guess I was hoping that "submissive" wasn't something people automatically assume when they see it.

 

[WyoD_S]

I know two Doms who wear collars.
One has two subs one has a wife who is his sub.
No-one ever mistakes them for anything other than Doms.

This thread has amused me.
So often on Lit we hear people saying its 'your BDSM' whatever 'floats your boat' and 'everyone is different'

Yet, on a question of collars, the goal posts change.
Is this because there is a history to wearing them as well as a symbolism, or like religion do we just cherry pick the bits we want to follow?
I am not going to argue, have been doing that alot around here and its never a popular move.

Dominants wearing collars may be accepted, or at least tolerated, in your community. In the community I am a part of, it is totally unacceptable. A Dom showing up at a play party or a munch wearing a collar would be laughed out of the building.

Yes, we all say 'your BDSM', etc... and we mean it, you are confusing this issue with the issue of practices. If someone is into pony play, for instance, more power to them. It doesn't do a thing for Me, but if they get off on it, good!

Conventions and practices are entirely different areas of discussion. There is no change of goalposts, as you put it.

BUT I am going to have a small rant and comment on this part of a post


I actually didn't know whether to be amazed, slightly mad or amused at this post.

A Dom wearing a collar is only wrong to those who deem it as wrong.
It is not morally or legally wrong, it a choice just like everything else in life.
It does not harm others, beatings to death, rape, mental abuse beyond endurance; they harm. Wearing a collar harms no-one.

You say 'your version,' well each to their own, but please don't imagine that pontificating about 'the lifestyle,' can be used as a means to explain your reasoning.

I was not equating 'harm' in the physical sense, and I think you know that. The harm is to the tradition, to the meaning of the collar. That is a type of harm that is irreversible and effects the entire community. Equating the harm I pointed out with death, rape, etc... is absurd.

The world has changed 'the lifestyle,' what does that mean?
Whatever the roots of leather, BDSM or Gor or any other derivative, the internet and freedom of speech has made all of this available to anyone, not just people who follow the rules, whatever they are.
I have yet to see or hear of the definative rule book.

I know people who live 24/7 and people who are D/s bedroom only and people who are online only. They are living their lifestyle. I don't know people in real life who treat it as a game. they may see it as fun, enjoyable as well as many other things, but not a game.

I am not 'collared' it all seems unnecessary to both of us, yet I am owned.
There are times I wear a collar, sometimes its for practical reasons, sometimes its for aesthetic reasons its individual to us, not to a rule book about 'the lifestyle'
I explain to people I am owned (if they ask or I think they need to know).

If a Dom or Domme wants to wear a collar I cannot see what business that is of mine or anyone elses.
As a final note, sometimes on here its difficlult to figure out if people are male/female/PYL/pyl or switch.
Collar or not, its always been obvious to me that Mac is a Dom. If you can figure that out on the 'net surely figuring it out in r/l must be even easier?

I don't think I have ever seen a definitive rule book either. But, the conventions and traditions are well known and widely accepted by the vast majority of lifestylers.

I have run across many people who treat the lifestyle as a game, both online and off.

Those Domly ones who want to wear a collar should be ready for the consequences of such. In the community where I am active, that would be widespread ridicule and being ignored.

Yes, it is difficult at times to tell who is who and how they identify online. Perhaps that is why profiles were made available. IRL, there are the accepted norms of the lifestyle to rely on. People ignoring these norms makes things more difficult.

 

[Kajira Callista]

First off, i love it when KC drags me around on a leash

tugs and whispers "hush and lets go....what a good boy you are"

 

[WyoD_S]

While I admit that recognizable conventions or symbols are helpful for some in the lifestyle, is there a chance that by over-doing it we create an environment of style over substance?

I believe that the conventions are the substance of the lifestyle (at least a very big part of the foundation). Breaking part of the convention by a Dom wearing a collar is a style, trying to override the substance.

 

[O'Mac]

Those Domly ones who want to wear a collar should be ready for the consequences of such. In the community where I am active, that would be widespread ridicule and being ignored.

I can think of one Dom with a collar that would likely break someone's arm in two if he was ever ridiculed for wearing it.

Secondly...

KC my dear, you have already broken so many "don't go there" protocols thus far in this thread. Anyone with the thought that they could lead me around for even a moment is either delusional or simply lacking in self-preservation.

*grabs flogger* So you see, now I have no choice but to make you aware of who really is in charge. I could say it's going to hurt me a lot more than it will hurt you, but why lie?

 

[Kajira Callista]

I can think of one Dom with a collar that would likely break someone's arm in two if he was ever ridiculed for wearing it.

Secondly...

KC my dear, you have already broken so many "don't go there" protocols thus far in this thread. Anyone with the thought that they could lead me around for even a moment is either delusional or simply lacking in self-preservation.

*grabs flogger* So you see, now I have no choice but to make you aware of who really is in charge. I could say it's going to hurt me a lot more than it will hurt you, but why lie?

*giggles and wags tail* i aint skeered.

 

[BeachGurl2]

I'm often amazed at just what about this lifestyle gets people so emotional. While I've never been collared, and I really don't know how I feel about it on a personal level, my attitude has always been one of whatever gets you off. I understand about the history and conventions. I've read the literature. But really, if someone wants to wear a collar, why should it matter? And if someone is confident and secure enough in himself/herself, I don't think they would be bothered by other Doms laughing them out of anything.

I've seen people come into the dungeon pulling wheeled suitcases of toys behind them, taking half and hour or more to setup their equipment, and then spend most of the evening watching to see who's checking them out. I've also seen people come in with a duffle bag, setup their gear and get going on their playtime without any concern for who might be around. And then there was the woman who came in alone in a cheap walmart dog collar, sat in a corner all night and just watched things. Who am I to judge who or what any of them were? But what do I know anyway?

This boy is as sheltered as the day is long, but he sure has one heck of a collection of fetish fashion.

I often wonder how many of them have ever even heard of BDSM. To most of them, it's just a fashion statement.

 

[Xelebes]

To me, a collar does not act as a symbol of submission but a symbol of difference. It is supposed to make one stand out and is one reason why the submissive often wears it because it makes their submission stand out. But a dominant can use the collar on himself to show his dominance - or at least how different he is from others. My younger brother thinks that a collar goes on strippers ("Your cat looks like a stripper with that collar!") Of course, this is not the leatherman's tradition - their's is more strict and the purpose is more different. But for someone who is outside of that but still in the kinky dress, a collar is perfectly acceptable to be around a dominant's neck.

 

[A Desert Rose]

... And then there was the woman who came in alone in a cheap walmart dog collar, sat in a corner all night and just watched things. Who am I to judge who or what any of them were? But what do I know anyway?

My pet collar c_me from Petco, I'll h_ve you know. I w_s there when He h_d the t_g engr_ved for me.





So there!!!

(See, sometimes th_t d_mned key works _nd others, it doesn't. You gott_ hit it just right, I guess.)

 

[BeachGurl2]

My pet collar c_me from Petco, I'll h_ve you know. I w_s there when He h_d the t_g engr_ved for me.





So there!!!

(See, sometimes th_t d_mned key works _nd others, it doesn't. You gott_ hit it just right, I guess.)

I wasn't judging her, ADR. Just using her as an example. I have no idea where she got the collar or anything because I never spoke to her. That was my point - I noticed her because she sat in a corner all alone with her too-big collar on. Made me curious about her, but I didn't begin to speculate about who she was or where she got the collar.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I wasn't judging her, ADR. Just using her as an example. I have no idea where she got the collar or anything because I never spoke to her. That was my point - I noticed her because she sat in a corner all alone with her too-big collar on. Made me curious about her, but I didn't begin to speculate about who she was or where she got the collar.

It was a joke, doll. Sorry, you don't understand me.

sigh...



(edited so I could put the a's back in.)

 

[jadefirefly]

Clarify something for me, please. Anyone. It doesn't really matter who.


-- A non-owned sub may wear a collar if s/he chooses.
-- An owned sub may wear a collar if s/he or his/her PYL chooses.
-- Someone not into the lifestyle may wear a collar if s/he chooses.
-- Our pets may wear collars if we choose.
-- A PYL may not wear a collar, otherwise they are breaking holy, sacrosanct traditions and the world will end in fire and brimstone.


Does that about sum it up? 'Cos I think it sounds a little unfair to the folks who would really like to wear 'em, but aren't allowed 'cos they don't like being whipped, or whatever.

Or are they only not allowed to wear them in the communities that consider themselves special enough that they *would* ridicule someone out of a gathering? Because if that's the case, I'm betting they wouldn't want to be part of that group anyhow.

Sorry, but once again, nobody is going to tell me what kink I can and cannot practice, nobody is going to tell me what I can and cannot fantasize about, and nobody is going to tell me what I can and cannot wear in my personal time.

(The exception to all of the above being C, of course. ..... Come to think of it, he'd look pretty damned good in a collar, too... I don't think I could ever get him in one, though.)

Any community that still behaves like high schoolers ("Oh my gawd, is he wearing a collar?! You've gawt to be kidding.... who does he think he is? Ohmigawd, he's looking at us, don't look! He might come over and talk to us...") over what people choose to wear, is a community I'm glad I don't live in.

There is no *reason* to insist on this mindless clinging to "tradition" other than that it is one that happens to personally suit the person clinging to it. Traditions change. Times change. People change. Don't believe me? Ask any grandparent how many leather and fetish communities THEY visited in their time.

Change happens.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Clarify something for me, please. Anyone. It doesn't really matter who. ... Change happens.

Yea, you're right and I think I'll change hats tonight.


(I know I can joke with you... right? And not have to explain myself?)

 

[jadefirefly]

Yea, you're right and I think I'll change hats tonight.


(I know I can joke with you... right? And not have to explain myself?)

Please tell me you'll change your underwear too.....?


*I dunno... can you? ;p *

 

[A Desert Rose]

Please tell me you'll change your underwear too.....?


*I dunno... can you? ;p *

I don't wear underwear... but for you, I'll change.







LOL

 

[graceanne]

I don't wear underwear... but for you, I'll change.







LOL

*gasp* You don't wear underwear?

You perv.

 

[jadefirefly]

I don't wear underwear... but for you, I'll change.







LOL

What're the odds, neither do I! We'll change together....


Err... at the same time, I mean.

Unless you want to change together.