Exactly as predicted...

[p_p_man]

GWB is intent on salvaging something from another non trip to Europe,

After being effectively side-lined by Europe, after all who wants to hear a man repeat the same thing over and over again, he's now announced that MDS should be linked to the reduction of the present stockpiles of nuclear weapons held by Russia and America.

That's big of him considering Yeltsin and Clinton had already agreed to this in 1997.

He's beginning to look more and more like a man who made his two major policy statements far too early in his presidency and is now trying hard to retrieve something from the unexpected hardline opposition to them.

With MDS now looking less and less likely to come to anything and the possibility that Kyoto may be ratified without the United States I suppose we should all be prepared for another couple of major policy announcements to edge him closer to the next election.

 

[WriterDom]

Bush returns with the claret jug!

oh.. no.. that was another bloody yank.

 

[rambling man]

he had already announced the elimination of MX missiles before going...that was beyond the clinton agreement

Kyoto isnt his cross to bear, nobody in American politics will give it a whiff of support,,,business/republicans hate it.....unions/democrats hate it...Therefore, no Kyoto agreement as it now stands...Europe's intransigence is not Bush's problem...Also, if Putin and Bush come to terms on the missile defense they leave Europe behind....

Europe sometimes acts these days as if the clock had switched back to before 1914....not yet friends, you are still very dependent upon us

 

[p_p_man]

Europe sometimes acts these days as if the clock had switched back to before 1914....not yet friends, you are still very dependent upon us

Get real lad.

It's people like you who keep quoting the past not us Euros (unless we're responding to something).

According to the BBC news this evening, the further reduction of the nuclear stockpile has come as a great surprise to Putin and the American Senate (albeit as an American spokesman said "a pleasant surprise"). So I don't what inside information you've got rambling man that nobody else is party to.

And calling Kyoto a cross to bear is just following the Bush philosophy that if it's not American it just ain't no good. Better a 5% reduction in emmissions now through the Kyoto Accord than 45%-50% reduction in 20 years time according to UN scientists. Oh sorry I forgot you're not going to believe them are you after all America still owes them money.

 

[rambling man]

get real...the kyoto vote was 96-0...no votes from the senate the first time...It has no support, zero, nothign from either party. It is dead in the USA to both parties. Unions own the democrats and business owns the republicans..neither wants the treaty in its current form...Bush simply took the onus on himself rather than embarassing the senate by making it reject the treaty again

it was on CBS news last week that the MX stockpile was being destroyed and that it could nudge Russia towards being receptive of the missile defense treaty because of the MX's purpose, destroying soviet missile silos...Y'all dont get CBS over there so thats forgivable...i hadnt seen it on the BBC site either

 

[p_p_man]

Europe doesn't care anymore...

...what Bush says on Kyoto. As far as we're concerned the subject's closed. We're going to try and work out a way of going ahead with it anyway.

As for the item on CBS. As I said in my post the news was a surprise to Putin AND the Senate. Maybe they don't get CBS either?

 

[Problem Child]

Get real lad.

Oh sorry I forgot you're not going to believe them are you after all America still owes them money.

No, you get real Dickhead.

You know...most of the time I take your good-natured English Joshing in stride, but if you really think the U.S. owes the U.N. anything then you can bloody well piss off.

After all we have done in aiding foreign countries, laying our ass on the line in places like Somalia, Haiti, Yugoslavia and a hundred other places, we have paid WELL-BEYOND what we should have in terms of money, equipment, and most of all BLOOD.

Take your measly billion-dollar bill and shove it up your Euro ass douchebag.

On second thought, how about we send the bill for our peacekeepers in Yugoslavia to 10 downing street, since you wussy Euros should be doing that job all by yourselves.

Here is a link with some figures about who owes whom for what.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-304.html

While we're at it how about paying us back for defending that shitty little piece of real-estate called Europe for the last 50 or so years.

I know, that's low, but it's also true, eh?

 

[p_p_man]

I thought everyone knew the USA...

...owes the UN money.


Read the article and I can't give it much credence as it's written by Cliff Kincaid (a name that vaguely rings a bell with me) who is president of Survival Inc and director of the American Sovereignty Action Project.

If both these organisations are what I think they are, well he would say that wouldn't he?

 

[Problem Child]

As if I'm supposed to put up articles that prove your point of view.

I notice you sidestepped everything I said, and chose to attack the author which you admit to knowing nothing about.

 

[rambling man]

PC is right, those were not Royal Marines, but United States Army Rangers being drug dead through the streets of Mogadishu during a mission where we just wanted to feed hungry people...misguided mission but we were trying

Britain should know more than anyone how difficult it is to be the leading power...I think that is why their government supports us so well

The missiles they discussed today may not have been the MX system, but Bush and Rumsfield have announced recently that the MX's are to be deactivated

The United Nations sits on land in an American city donated by the Rockefeller family. We work above and beyond what is expected of any other country and our reward is being bitched at for not doing more

Now we want security from all those crazy little countries out there buying missiles from Russian generals who are not getting paid regularly...Putin cant say anything because it is partially Russia's fault we need missile defense. No one wants to nuke Britain or France, they want to hit the big uys on the block...it is American lives at stake, not Europeans and that i sthe problem in a nutshell. The world has changed since the ABM treaty...Breznev and Nixon or any other president had no intention of killing the world...but now countries full of suicide bombers may soon havethese weapons...


Climate control is looked at in the US by many as a cover by countries wanting to reduce our competitive advantage. We can fire lazy people and we dont have to pa y them out the nose here, unlike in Europe..so some people may figure that hamstringing US industry may be a way to even the table again...at the very least keep BMW and Mercedes from moving more plants to South Carolina

 

[p_p_man]

I've tried...

As if I'm supposed to put up articles that prove your point of view.
I notice you sidestepped everything I said, and chose to attack the author which you admit to knowing nothing about.

...but I can't see how saying that the name Cliff Kincaid vaguely rings a bell can be interpreted as an attack on him.

 

[lavender]

 

[rambling man]

no, we dont benefit from the UN, at least not in the proportion that you are saying...What we give to the world out of duty and compassion far outweighs what we get back...hell, we rarely even get a thank you. We really do too much for the rest of the world in places that do not affect our national interest. Some of the money that we give to far off lands ought to go to our friends who need it, like Mexico.

Is not the United States, outside of its UN contributions, the largest giver of foreign aid in the world?

Also, the democrats never paid those back dues and still will not for the same reasons...We get back as much from the United Nations as you do personally by chucking a few dollars into the Salvation Army bucket at Christmas..some indirect effect may be there but it is pretty vague....would you give to the Salvation Army if you questioned whether the money was spent wisely, though? Some of you may not do it again because you disagree with its hiring policies. Our government has concerns with the UN so we hold back our money even though some of it does make its way to good works.


How was it in our self-interest to get involved in Yugoslavia? We spent a lot of money and a lot of time in a situation that will not be settled for a long time. In addition, we screwed up relations with 2 countries that actually matter to us, China and Russia. We came off the worse in that one.


Never think you have to stay quiet because of qualifications or lack thereof..it's your God-given right to spout off if you believe you need to.

 

[Problem Child]

Wow PC, you really are in a political/ideological quagmire these days. Just a few weeks ago you were saying that the UN peacekeepers should do something in Afghanistan and now you are saying the U.S. doesn't owe the UN?

Baaah. IF the U.S. goes into Afghanistan, who do you think will be leading the way. My money is on the U.S., just like most other times. This is EXACTLY the point. The U.N. would come begging for our support because "We're the only ones who can" (which is another crock) and we would go and clean up the Taliban, and we would put up camps for the refugees, and probalby be stuck there for the next twenty years, sending them food and medicine, footing the lion's share of the bill, and then you know what? The U.N. would send us a note saying we are behind in our U.N. payments.

You're damn straight, we don't owe them shit. We have a bill from them, and they owe us for past peacekeeping costs. Are you saying we don't have the right to have those costs factored into what we owe? Are we supposed to just bend over and pay what Kofi Anon says because we can? I'm glad we have representatives that question what we owe to the U.N. It is a bloated inefficient adminsitratively-heavy organization. When the rubber meets the road, we do more than our fair share on the international scene.

 

[rambling man]

If the UN is crazy enough to go to Afghanistan and wants to send our guys in there, thats the day we should flip them the bird and kick their asses out of Manhattan.

We need to adopt the old British policy from before the 20th century..send cash, but no troops if we can help it unless it is something vital to us

 

[Problem Child]

Lavender

rambling man reminded me-

I never said we should send troops to Afghanistan, in fact I said just the opposite, that it would be a quagmire.

 

[Weevil]

PC usually has his head up his ass when it comes to politics but I'm with him. The UN is an impotent, irrelevant organization.

 

[Problem Child]

PC usually has his head up his ass when it comes to politics but I'm with him. The UN is an impotent, irrelevant organization.

Wow, thanks buddy...

*sniff*

Here, have some nice pate on a triscuit.

 

[miles]

PC

Tell him about the mine shaft gap.

 

[Problem Child]

Re: PC

Tell him about the mine shaft gap.

"We must be...increasingly on the alert to prevent them from taking over other mineshaft space, in order to breed more prodigiously than we do, thus, knocking us out in superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow...a mine shaft gap!"

-General Buck Turgidson

 

[p_p_man]

Only just...

Quote from rambling man:

Is not the United States, outside of its UN contributions, the largest giver of foreign aid in the world?

Depends on how it's measured. In terms of GNP it comes way down the list, even further down than Italy.

In terms of actual figures it's still there but only just, the European Union has more or less caught up.

These two useless bits of information are taken from a couple of web sites I visited.

The main point is don't believe everything you read or have been told...

For instance Aid is never given out of compassion it's a straightforward aid for trade deal. That I do know at first hand. I was once involved in administering the UK's Aid program to the Sudan.

 

[registered "^^"]

Where is the John Birch Society

when you need them!

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Where is the John Birch Society

when you need them!

Last I heard they were running around in an extremely agitated state of self doubt!

 

[Closet Desire]

Actually...

...there are new figures quote by US news sources regarding foreign aid.

As already pointed out the US is way down the list in proportion to GNP...way down.

Western Europe already contributes more than the US.

Finally...get this...in real, total dollars, Japan is the number one provider of foreign aid.

Bugging out of the Kyoto treaty because it will harm the economy of the US could be a moot point if Europe and Japan continue to cooperate on the issue. The US is likely to find these countries imposing trade restrictions or tariffs on imports and/or raising prices on key products the US needs for its own industry in order to compensate for their own programs. In economics and politics, what goes around comes around.

The US could actually make a killing on cleaning up the act. With all those technical resources and motivation it could lead the world in technologies and products which could have an impact on emissions. There's always money to be made. It's just a question of who's going to make it.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Actually...

[B.The US could actually make a killing on cleaning up the act. With all those technical resources and motivation it could lead the world in technologies and products which could have an impact on emissions. There's always money to be made. It's just a question of who's going to make it. [/B]

Yes that's true. Global manufacturers have already started to investigate ways of using new energy sources in the anticipation that Kyoto would be ratified. Their research has in fact shown that more profits would be made from switching from the old to the new. They are now beginning to support Kyoto, or at least something similar, and will need some persuading to reverse their programs now.

As you say there's always money to be made, and in this case more than most people realised, it's now a matter of who gets the largest slice of the cake. American companies stand just as good a chance as any other in bidding for a large share, but this political problem over Kyoto, has clipped their wings a bit.

And the rest of the world is not going to stand idly by...