Evil is an Artform

[ABSTRUSE]

But is the defense of others really a choice? That would depend on the character. Is he/she the sort of person who would reflexively defend others? Like when you're driving your car and you stop short, some people (myself included) will reflexively shoot out to the passenger if there is one to... I don't know, by the force of my arm keep them from flying out of he windshield.

But the effectiveness of the defense isn't really the point. The point is who the character is. Personally? I'm not sure I could live with myself if I had to kill someone else to protect myself. But protecting others would give me an assurance boundry. "I didn't do this for just me. I did this for others." That's probably pretty Judeo/Christian though.

I apologize for being so general, but I don't want to give my story away as of yet.

Lets' say B had commited atrocities against a certain group of people and only A really knows of this and feels the extermination of B is the only way to amend this problem.

 

[psychocatblah]

I apologize for being so general, but I don't want to give my story away as of yet.

Lets' say B had commited atrocities against a certain group of people and only A really knows of this and feels the extermination of B is the only way to amend this problem.

No, that's perfectly alright. I don't really expect you to just spill out the plot. I'm just sort of playing with the ideas of characterisations, I like doing that. I suppose the example given earlier with Hitler would apply here. Circumstance and timing would bear out whether everyone would find it evil or good. But in a very personal way, the character would have to deal with whether they personally found the deed to be good or evil.

But would killing be the only option? Are thre ways within channels that the person could be dealt with? If it's a matter of call 911 or just shoot B, well... then things become more dark. If there are no other options... then it's less evil. IMHO.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

No, that's perfectly alright. I don't really expect you to just spill out the plot. I'm just sort of playing with the ideas of characterisations, I like doing that. I suppose the example given earlier with Hitler would apply here. Circumstance and timing would bear out whether everyone would find it evil or good. But in a very personal way, the character would have to deal with whether they personally found the deed to be good or evil.

But would killing be the only option? Are thre ways within channels that the person could be dealt with? If it's a matter of call 911 or just shoot B, well... then things become more dark. If there are no other options... then it's less evil. IMHO.

It's a dark thing....lol. but thank you for playing the game. Oh and welcome to the AH.

~A~

 

[psychocatblah]

Thank you! It's a neat place!

 

[Guest]

Karen, I get your nitpicking but obviously I wasn't directing the crux of my statement to my cellular makeup. Re. choice it should be obvious only humans do that. I did mention degrees too.

No harm done though P.

Bravo!

I have always believed that there is polarity in everything in the universe. For everything there is an opposite. And in most cases there can not be one without the other. Without evil there is no good. Without love there is no hate. Without death there is no life. And vise-versa.

As for where evil comes from; is it learned or genetic? Both. I have seen children who came from good homes and good families that were as mean and evil as they come. Genetic? Doubtful. But I also know someone who was adopted who unknowingly followed step by step in his fathers footsteps despite the best efforts of his adopted parents.


Evil is. It's that simple. But for all the evil in the world there is an equal amount of good. We just don't hear as much about the good because evil makes a better story for the 6:00 news.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Bravo!

I have always believed that there is polarity in everything in the universe. For everything there is an opposite. And in most cases there can not be one without the other. Without evil there is no good. Without love there is no hate. Without death there is no life. And vise-versa.

As for where evil comes from; is it learned or genetic? Both. I have seen children who came from good homes and good families that were as mean and evil as they come. Genetic? Doubtful. But I also know someone who was adopted who unknowingly followed step by step in his fathers footsteps despite the best efforts of his adopted parents.


Evil is. It's that simple. But for all the evil in the world there is an equal amount of good. We just don't hear as much about the good because evil makes a better story for the 6:00 news.

Yin and yang, black and white, very Taoist, which I like. But is it really that simple I wonder? Evil is...then, Love is. Off to ponder and meditate on that.

~A~

 

[Clare Quilty]

Murderers (including terrorists) are evil, but soldiers aren't.

Infamous dictators are evil but modern politicians aren't

Wow, this is silly. I'm going to assume that this was written tongue-in-cheek.

 

[psychocatblah]

Yin and yang, black and white, very Taoist, which I like. But is it really that simple I wonder? Evil is...then, Love is. Off to ponder and meditate on that.

~A~

I've seen/read/and yes, even done some fairly evil things out of love. The road to hell is paved with good intentions much?

 

[Wildcard Ky]

One final thing, can somebody be born evil? A resounding no from me.

Lou

I'd say yes to that one. I have a nephew that was born evil. He has 2 brothers and a sister that are "normal". From the time he was a toddler you could see it in him. As he's gotten older (he's 14 now) it has simply intensified.

He is the most mean, malicious, hurtful and hateful child I've ever seen. He's the type that tortures and kills animals for amusement. He thinks physically hurting someone is the funnest thing to do.

I fully expect that he will spend the greatest part of his adult life in prison, probably on murder or attempted murder charges.

 

[cantdog]

I've seen/read/and yes, even done some fairly evil things out of love. The road to hell is paved with good intentions much?

I thought that road was paved with unbought stuffed dogs.

 

[psychocatblah]

I thought that road was paved with unbought stuffed dogs.

But they are *well-intentioned* stuffed dogs?

 

[KarenAM]

I'd say yes to that one. I have a nephew that was born evil. He has 2 brothers and a sister that are "normal". From the time he was a toddler you could see it in him. As he's gotten older (he's 14 now) it has simply intensified.

He is the most mean, malicious, hurtful and hateful child I've ever seen. He's the type that tortures and kills animals for amusement. He thinks physically hurting someone is the funnest thing to do.

I fully expect that he will spend the greatest part of his adult life in prison, probably on murder or attempted murder charges.

I once looked into the eyes of a man who fully intended to kill me. Maybe he was born evil. Maybe not. But stories like yours Wildcard, are sadly common. As John Steinbeck put it in "East of Eden":

"I believe there are monsters in the earth."

Some people have no conscience; they're born without one. Some of these can be helped, others can't. Perhaps there is some sort of therapy that can help your nephew, Wildcard.

Some people, however, are like an Ebola virus, which you have to isolate or destroy to protect everybody else. And you have to do this while somehow managing not to become a monster yourself.

 

[psychocatblah]

I once looked into the eyes of a man who fully intended to kill me. Maybe he was born evil. Maybe not. But stories like yours Wildcard, are sadly common. As John Steinbeck put it in "East of Eden":

"I believe there are monsters in the earth."

Some people have no conscience; they're born without one. Some of these can be helped, others can't. Perhaps there is some sort of therapy that can help your nephew, Wildcard.

Some people, however, are like an Ebola virus, which you have to isolate or destroy to protect everybody else. And you have to do this while somehow managing not to become a monster yourself.

I think for some, it's more comforting to believe that people are inherentlly good and that everything happens for a reason. But even knowing that there are monsters on earth... how do you look at a baby, even if somehow you KNOW it's going to be Hitler, and strike it down?

 

[KarenAM]

I think for some, it's more comforting to believe that people are inherentlly good and that everything happens for a reason. But even knowing that there are monsters on earth... how do you look at a baby, even if somehow you KNOW it's going to be Hitler, and strike it down?

Of course, if evil is genetic and physiological, so too must be good. Was there something about Mother Theresa that drove her to do all she did? I've found that my friends who believe in the inherent goodness of mankind are often bitter and disappointed. I think it's better to believe that there is the capacity for good in most people, put there by their genes, and that we should try to reach this if we can, should try to encourage it to grow. But this doesn't mean we aren't also inherently evil, because we are. We all have a dark side.

I asked myself the question aboput killing baby Hitler when I read a biography of him that had a picture of him at about age one. I remember looking at that picture and feeling so very sad, because he was just a little baby then. And I concluded that knowing what I know now, knowing what he would grow up to do, I might be able to kill that baby, but only if the gun I used had two bullets.

The second would be for me.

 

[yui]

Hi Abs,

Nifty thread…wicked cool.

In my humble opinion, if I were character A, I would have to make the best decision I could with the information I had at the time. If I (character A) were acting in good conscience as defined by my beliefs and cultural/societal norms, then no, I would not be evil. I might feel guilty and cry and throw-up, but I would not be evil.

Evil does exist. I think certain behaviors would be universally defined as "evil". I do not think, strictly speaking, that evil is individually defined by culture. I think societal norms are defined by culture, but evil, true evil, has a universal definition.

Can people be born evil? I think people can be born "flawed" and those flaws predispose them to be vulnerable to negative environmental influences (i.e. the kid that was locked under the stairs and beaten with electrical cords who kills co-eds for kicks 25 years after he tunnels out). And I also think some people are just morally bankrupt…evil. I do not think all murders had a bad childhood. I do not think all child molesters were molested. I do not think all presidential candidates are veterans.

I believe this universal truth: Mean people suck.

Wholly lacking in evilness…but occasionally a bit pissy,

Citizen Yui ^_^

 

[cloudy]

I like Cant's definitions...tribesman, barbarian, citizen.

If we look at society simplistically (is that a word?), then evil is defined by the "tribe." What is considered evil by one tribe, may be considered a necessity by another.

It's a matter of societal conditioning, I think.

I believe true evil does exist - for example, in the sociopaths someone has already mentioned. They have no concept of right or wrong and are pure ego, i.e. what's good for them is all that matters. These people, I believe, are not a product of their environment, but are hard-wired that way.

Then you have the cycle thing...children that are raised in horrible conditions sometimes do horrible things as adults. But I wouldn't consider them truly evil, just sad results of their environment.

Yes, children have to be taught that their actions have consequences, BUT I truly don't think they are bad to start with. Yes, they believe the world revolves around them until they are taught differently, however, for much of their first years, it does. As they get older, they become very attuned to whether they have pleased or displeased their parents and can read an expression, or body language, better than most adults can. And they want, desperately, to please their parents most of the time (I'm talking toddler years here....teenagers are a completely different species). Even when my youngest, who will be 4 soon, misbehaves, he is quick to come and tell me he's sorry.

I guess what I'm trying to say, in an extremely roundabout way is that the definition of good and evil is a societal one.

 

[psychocatblah]

Hi Abs,

Nifty thread…wicked cool.

Can people be born evil? I think people can be born "flawed" and those flaws predispose them to be vulnerable to negative environmental influences (i.e. the kid that was locked under the stairs and beaten with electrical cords who kills co-eds for kicks 25 years after he tunnels out).
Citizen Yui ^_^

OMG! Harry Potter was locked under the stairs too! *worries about his future*

 

[psychocatblah]

I asked myself the question aboput killing baby Hitler when I read a biography of him that had a picture of him at about age one. I remember looking at that picture and feeling so very sad, because he was just a little baby then. And I concluded that knowing what I know now, knowing what he would grow up to do, I might be able to kill that baby, but only if the gun I used had two bullets.

The second would be for me.

The second bullet notwithstanding... most people and cultures would consider killing a child an act of evil. Which puts us back to the start of what evil is. Is it evil because of what is in our hearts or evil because of what others might think of it?

 

[KarenAM]

The second bullet notwithstanding... most people and cultures would consider killing a child an act of evil. Which puts us back to the start of what evil is. Is it evil because of what is in our hearts or evil because of what others might think of it?

Most people and cultures would consider killing a child an act of evil, if that child were inside their moral circle. Most of the time, children are. But this can be manipulated. If the child is a kraut, a nip, a gook, a towelhead or a sand-nigger, there have been times in our own history when killing them has been considered a moral good encouraged by many people who at the same time treat the children around them with the utmost kindness. Every society does this; there are "us" and "them", and in times of stress such as war, "they" are reduced to non-human status (how many of us here have heard Jews referred to as a "disease" by anti-Semites?) because that way they are more easily placed outside the moral circle, which means they can be killed without it being, socially at least, considered an evil. The trouble is that if your moral circle gets broad again, and the krauts become Germans, the nips become Japanese, the gooks Vietnamese, and the towelheads and sand niggers become Arabs, each of whom can be your friend and whose children can play with and maybe even marry your kids, your hard-wired moral code will kick you in the ass for having murdered those kids before. Because deep in your genes you know that killing children is an absolute wrong.

Evil and good are flexible but will never go completely away. If I were to kill baby Hitler, I would be evil, even as I prevented evil in the form of the countless children he went on to kill. Because I could not live with the evil I had done, even knowing the evil I would have prevented, I would need that second bullet. Because all the thanks of all the people in all the world wouldn't change the fact that I had committed a child-murder.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

An interesting point on Hitler. He studied art, I believe mainly architecture (Colly, my historian friend can possibly provide the correct answer) He was rejected from art school.
I can't help but wonder if his being accepted and going on to design and create would have kept 6 million people alive?

 

[Xelebes]

Unfortunately Abs, evil is entirely a matter of perception.

It depends on your culture, how you were bought up, your mental state, what you've learned on your own and concious decisions you come to.

In some places and times, cannibalism is a way to destroy your enemies, in others it's a mark of respect for the dead, in ours it's looked upon with revulsion.

My perception of good is behaviour, personal and social, that helps a society to survive and grow, with the minimum of force and suffering. Evil is the opposite of that.

But I'm open to differences of opinion.

This is the definition I like to use, and due to it's ambiguity I'd like to see the word banished from politics. The word is no more than a tool for fear-mongering.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Somehow, I can't possibly resist a post like this one. Wonder why?

Anyway, my favorite sentiment on evil has to come from an old rock band called Diamond Head which said, "Am I evil?/Yes I am/Am I evil?/ I am man."

In essence, mankind and all of its participants are on some wavelength evil. All of us commit small murders or participate in wrath or secretely lust for money or power or loveless sexual fulfillment. It's what we do and we invented justification and moralizing to deal with it. Many people are more evil than others and a popular game that's arisen in the world of justification is the "I'm a monster, eh, well at least I'm not as bad as <insert bad guy's name, ideally Hitler>" It's a sad, but true state of affairs.

As far as what constitutes relativistic evil and good in our little corner of space, I personally vouche for the personal responsibility test. An evil man will blame others for his sin, deny his sin, or feel nothing over his sin. A good man will overcompensate for his sins, blaming himself for things he didn't do, ills he didn't commit, sins that weren't really his, taking the moral hit of a thousand slings and arrows. This all is neccesary, because an evil man will commit atrocities and moralize it away, whereas a good man will agonize over atrocities he only participated in by doing nothing about it. The good man's conscience will not let him commit true atrocity just as an evil man's rationalization will allow him to be the victim of every passion play.

Anyway, that's my theory and I tend to doubt the whole pure evil, pure good thing, because there's often some little slip up to show a weakness. The closest person I ever saw to pure good had a problem with wrath sometimes and the collective candidate for pure evil (Hitler) showed compassion in his treatment of dogs. In all things a true absolute is hard to reach without serious effort.

All right, that's just the devil's opinion and now for storyland advice. The quickest and easiest way to make someone evil is to give them no or little conscience and a greasy addiction to power or money. That's the tried and true Dickens, etc. formula you'd likely see in some tome called "How to Write Evil".

-The Devil, with love

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Now I feel honored, the devil himself posted...thanks


There is so much great feed back here, thanks to all once again.

 

[psychocatblah]

An interesting point on Hitler. He studied art, I believe mainly architecture (Colly, my historian friend can possibly provide the correct answer) He was rejected from art school.
I can't help but wonder if his being accepted and going on to design and create would have kept 6 million people alive?

And just what if he'd eaten meat?

 

[bg23]

There's no such thing as evil.

Morality is relative.

We have no free will.

*Sits back and waits for the games to begin.*