European Armaments Manufacturers

[ChloeTzang]

Canada is working on a deal for 88 F-35's. Given Trump's bullshit, and the 8 million lines of code America controls in the F-35 computer system, we too are considering cancelling.

It will become an election issue. We Canadians are fucking livid, and with the soon to be election, any party that doesn't publicly state they will cancel the deal, will not get elected.

I think you're bang on about Trump breaking NATO up, and being Putins bitch. As well as the US will be the biggest loser as the EU designs it's own version of the old NATO.

For those who doubt this: Ask yourself this, did NATO buy Russian military equipment? Well why would the EU buy US military equipment.

Yep, it was gonna happen...... looks like Trump is going to cost Lockheed-Martin 70 odd F35 sales to Canada.....

Canada reconsidering F-35 purchase amid tensions with Washington, says minister​

Canada is actively looking at potential alternatives to the U.S.-built F-35 stealth fighter and will hold conversations with rival aircraft makers, Defence Minister Bill Blair said late Friday, just hours after being reappointed to the post as part of Prime Minister Mark Carney's new cabinet. The remarks came one day after Portugal signalled it was planning to ditch its acquisition of the high-tech warplane. The re-examination in this country is taking place amid the bruising political fight with the Trump administration over tariffs and threats from the American president to annex Canada by economic force.

There has been a groundswell of support among Canadians to kill the $19-billion purchase and find aircraft other than those manufactured and maintained in the United States.

After years of delay, the Liberal government signed a contract with the U.S. defence giant Lockheed Martin in June 2023 to purchase 88 F-35 jets. The conversation about Canada getting out of the deal is currently taking place with the military, Blair told CBC's Power & Politics. Canada has already put down its money for the first 16 warplanes, which are due to be delivered early next year. Blair is suggesting that the first F-35s might be accepted and the remainder of the fleet would be made up of aircraft from European suppliers, such as the Swedish-built Saab Gripen, which finished second in the competition. "The prime minister has asked me to go and examine those things and have discussions with other sources, particularly where there may be opportunities to assemble those fighter jets in Canada," Blair said.

Given Trump's threats directed at Canada, that would probably be a sound decision.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/cana...TS&cvid=5ba4716cf6354c63a648839d724491f3&ei=9

 

[Bray123]

If I were making jet fighters I would certainly include a secret kill switch for the eventuality of that plane being used in the future against me. It would be absurd for Lockheed not to do that.

So, all of NATOs F35s will be grounded when Trump starts his first New War, likely to be against Denmark or Canada. Plus all of the other aircraft supplied by the US, all the shipping, tanks, etc.

This has already stirred European countries into an assessment of their defense capabilities.

 

[ishtat]

Not just Rheinmetall, altho they're a big player and getting bigger. BAE Systems and Saab. Patria in Finland. Thales in France. Dassault Aviation. Leonardo in Italy. CSG in Czechia. Poland has a couple. There's quite a selection to pick from and they're mostly all doing well.

Correct, But never forget the Babushka effect. Every Russian grandmother for 80 years has told stories to her grand and great grandchildren - How the Germans came - how they slaughtered 40 - 50 million million . Grandads, grandmas, aunts, uncles, children, 100 Russians for every single Brit or American lost. The Russians fear the Germans and so they should. The muttering will be, 'why did that idiot attack Ukraine?' Hardware is important but the fear factor, fear of the Germans once again is haunting the Russian mind.

 

[icanhelp1]

I’ve heard people say that the US broke a promise to Ukraine. Just looking for something that spells out in writing what that promise was, and if it’s in any way binding.

You’re correct, there isn’t. It’s a non aggression pact not a defense treaty. All parties agreed to respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Russia chose to break the pact. No individual signatory agreed to come to its defense. IMHO

 

[Bray123]

The mobster initiated the war in revenge for being refused dirt on Hunter Biden. It's disappointing yet inevitable that cultists refuse to acknowledge the truth on this and many other matters.


https://dissidentvoice.org/2022/02/how-the-us-instigated-the-ukraine-crisis/

Now he pretends to hate the war and says he wants the killing to end. He is a liar. He only wants Russia to win.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Yep, it was gonna happen...... looks like Trump is going to cost Lockheed-Martin 70 odd F35 sales to Canada.....

Canada reconsidering F-35 purchase amid tensions with Washington, says minister​

Canada is actively looking at potential alternatives to the U.S.-built F-35 stealth fighter and will hold conversations with rival aircraft makers, Defence Minister Bill Blair said late Friday, just hours after being reappointed to the post as part of Prime Minister Mark Carney's new cabinet. The remarks came one day after Portugal signalled it was planning to ditch its acquisition of the high-tech warplane. The re-examination in this country is taking place amid the bruising political fight with the Trump administration over tariffs and threats from the American president to annex Canada by economic force.

There has been a groundswell of support among Canadians to kill the $19-billion purchase and find aircraft other than those manufactured and maintained in the United States.

After years of delay, the Liberal government signed a contract with the U.S. defence giant Lockheed Martin in June 2023 to purchase 88 F-35 jets. The conversation about Canada getting out of the deal is currently taking place with the military, Blair told CBC's Power & Politics. Canada has already put down its money for the first 16 warplanes, which are due to be delivered early next year. Blair is suggesting that the first F-35s might be accepted and the remainder of the fleet would be made up of aircraft from European suppliers, such as the Swedish-built Saab Gripen, which finished second in the competition. "The prime minister has asked me to go and examine those things and have discussions with other sources, particularly where there may be opportunities to assemble those fighter jets in Canada," Blair said.

Given Trump's threats directed at Canada, that would probably be a sound decision.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/cana...TS&cvid=5ba4716cf6354c63a648839d724491f3&ei=9

View attachment 2513152

The remarks came one day after Portugal signalled it was planning to ditch its acquisition of the high-tech warplane.


"There has been a groundswell of support among Canadians to kill the $19-billion purchase and find aircraft other than those manufactured and maintained in the United States."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f35-blair-trump-1.7484477

Trump the leader of the demise of the American armament industry.....

 

[DeYaKen]

Not just Rheinmetall, altho they're a big player and getting bigger. BAE Systems and Saab. Patria in Finland. Thales in France. Dassault Aviation. Leonardo in Italy. CSG in Czechia. Poland has a couple. There's quite a selection to pick from and they're mostly all doing well.

Poland now wants nuclear weapons. Having seen the way Ukraine was treated after they gave theirs up, Poland wants Nuclear power and weapon systems. That's all we need, more of those thing waiting to be used.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Correct, But never forget the Babushka effect. Every Russian grandmother for 80 years has told stories to her grand and great grandchildren - How the Germans came - how they slaughtered 40 - 50 million million . Grandads, grandmas, aunts, uncles, children, 100 Russians for every single Brit or American lost. The Russians fear the Germans and so they should. The muttering will be, 'why did that idiot attack Ukraine?' Hardware is important but the fear factor, fear of the Germans once again is haunting the Russian mind.

And don't forget the Cossacks....they were the terror troops of the Tsars, and then of Stalin.....and the Cossacks are the Ukrainians....

 

[ChloeTzang]

Poland now wants nuclear weapons. Having seen the way Ukraine was treated after they gave theirs up, Poland wants Nuclear power and weapon systems. That's all we need, more of those thing waiting to be used.

Well, thanks to Biden and more especially Trump, what we now have is the certainty of nuclear proliferation. Iran has also just told Trump to take a hike.....

I would expect Taiwan to build nukes rather quickly now too, and perhaps Australia. South Korea too, given the uncertainty around Trump, and that North Korea has them. South Korea and Japan have to be aware they can no longer rely on the American nuclear deterrent. Canada has to be a question mark as well. They've sheltered under the American defense umbrella but Trump has now withdrawn that. A Canadian city would make a good target for demonstration purposes....for China, Russia or the NORKs.

 

[ishtat]

A small order but Portugal has cancelled an order for US planes. The Reichstag has passed legislation to spend a Trillion more on defence. Two buyers (cant identify yet) previously close to adopting the "Patriot" missile system are now evaluating the equally effective and cheaper Franco Italian alternative. The trickle of buyers away from US arms is slowly becoming a flood. The stock prices for US manufactures have collapsed by as much as 55%.

Does any one know of a US website which is aggregating this information?

 

[ChloeTzang]

 

[ChloeTzang]

“The Rafale does not need to ask anyone for permission to fly. When we sell the Rafale to our allies and partners, they are free to use it as they see fit.” —

They're rather beautiful looking aircraft - very French. And many European and NATO countries are already looking to cancel or delay F35 purposes and are seeking alternatives such as the Typhoon, Rafale, or Gripen. Trump has done severe damage to the USA's defense industry.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Canadian general who recommended F-35 deal now calls for purchase of other jets​

The air force general who recommended Canada buy the F-35 fighter jet now says the purchase should no longer go forward as planned because the U.S. has become so untrustworthy. Retired Lt.-Gen. Yvan Blondin, who headed the Royal Canadian Air Force from 2012 to 2015, argues that the American-built F-35 was the best fighter jet for Canada to operate in a world where alliances were anchored by the United States.
But all that has changed with the election of U.S. President Donald Trump. “Reliance on a U.S. defence umbrella, a critical factor since the end of WW2 for so many countries, is no longer guaranteed,” Blondin wrote in a March 25 post on LinkedIn. “No affected country can afford to close its eyes and hope that 2026 or 2028 elections in the US will bring everything back to ‘normal’… and not happen again. The toothpaste cannot go back in the tube.”

Trump has threatened to harm Canada’s economy and has talked about annexing this country. He has mulled about seizing Greenland and the Panama Canal and under his administration the U.S. has cozied up to Russia. Blondin wrote that because of the U.S., Canada was now fighting for its very existence. The retired general, a former fighter pilot, recommended to Conservative prime minister Stephen Harper that Canada purchase the F-35 from Lockheed Martin. Harper’s government announced the acquisition but eventually that was put on hold because of the increasing cost and technical problems associated with the F-35.
The Liberal government announced in 2023 it was spending $19 billion to buy 88 F-35s. But Canada has only financially committed to purchasing the first 16 jets.

Blondin said the problem with the F-35 was not the aircraft itself; it was the complete control the Americans had over all aspects of the plane. “The reality is that, without U.S. consent, no country can hope to operate the F-35 for long,” Blondin said. He said building Canada’s future fighter force solely on the F-35 would be “irresponsible.” Liberal Leader Mark Carney ordered a review of the F-35 purchase in the wake of an increasingly hostile United States and Trump’s threats towards Canada. Blondin said there was still time before a decision had to be made to purchase the remaining 72 F-35s. The solution, he added, may be a mix of some F-35s and other aircraft from European nations, while at the same time spending money for future aircraft being developed by Europe. “We may find for example that 36 F-35 and 150 other fighter aircraft such as Rafale or Gripen could be a better strategic, economic, and military posture while investing heavily in 6th gen developments,” he explained.

Blondin dismissed claims that Canada could not support two different types of fighter jets and argued that the country could quickly purchase a new aircraft. Carney confirmed March 17 that he had discussions with French and British government officials about whether those countries could build a fighter jet in Canada. In addition, there have been suggestions that the Swedish-built Gripen, which came second in the Canadian fighter jet competition, could provide a solution for Canada. The Swedes had promised to build the Gripens in Canada. Blondin said Canada now needed to develop a defence strategy based on the new realities of changes in the U.S.

Former defence procurement chief Alan Williams and various defence analysts have warned that the F-35 represented a strategic vulnerability for Canada since the U.S. has total control over software upgrades and spare parts on the aircraft. Supporters of Canada’s F-35 purchase point to the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of contracts that Canadian companies have earned by supplying parts for the U.S. aircraft. That, in turn, has sustained or created Canadian aerospace jobs. But on Feb. 28 the National Post reported that Trump had told Lockheed Martin he wanted those jobs back in the U.S. when the Canadian contracts came up for renewal.

So basically. among other things, Trump wants to renege on the contracts with Canadian companies which helped secure the F35 deal with Canada. I suspect this F35 deal with Canada is cooked now, and Lockheed Martin can kiss the remaining F35 sales to Canada goodbye.

https://ottawacitizen.com/public-service/defence-watch/canadian-general-f-35-fighter-jet-deal

 

[DeYaKen]

Canadian general who recommended F-35 deal now calls for purchase of other jets​

The air force general who recommended Canada buy the F-35 fighter jet now says the purchase should no longer go forward as planned because the U.S. has become so untrustworthy. Retired Lt.-Gen. Yvan Blondin, who headed the Royal Canadian Air Force from 2012 to 2015, argues that the American-built F-35 was the best fighter jet for Canada to operate in a world where alliances were anchored by the United States.
But all that has changed with the election of U.S. President Donald Trump. “Reliance on a U.S. defence umbrella, a critical factor since the end of WW2 for so many countries, is no longer guaranteed,” Blondin wrote in a March 25 post on LinkedIn. “No affected country can afford to close its eyes and hope that 2026 or 2028 elections in the US will bring everything back to ‘normal’… and not happen again. The toothpaste cannot go back in the tube.”

Trump has threatened to harm Canada’s economy and has talked about annexing this country. He has mulled about seizing Greenland and the Panama Canal and under his administration the U.S. has cozied up to Russia. Blondin wrote that because of the U.S., Canada was now fighting for its very existence. The retired general, a former fighter pilot, recommended to Conservative prime minister Stephen Harper that Canada purchase the F-35 from Lockheed Martin. Harper’s government announced the acquisition but eventually that was put on hold because of the increasing cost and technical problems associated with the F-35.
The Liberal government announced in 2023 it was spending $19 billion to buy 88 F-35s. But Canada has only financially committed to purchasing the first 16 jets.

Blondin said the problem with the F-35 was not the aircraft itself; it was the complete control the Americans had over all aspects of the plane. “The reality is that, without U.S. consent, no country can hope to operate the F-35 for long,” Blondin said. He said building Canada’s future fighter force solely on the F-35 would be “irresponsible.” Liberal Leader Mark Carney ordered a review of the F-35 purchase in the wake of an increasingly hostile United States and Trump’s threats towards Canada. Blondin said there was still time before a decision had to be made to purchase the remaining 72 F-35s. The solution, he added, may be a mix of some F-35s and other aircraft from European nations, while at the same time spending money for future aircraft being developed by Europe. “We may find for example that 36 F-35 and 150 other fighter aircraft such as Rafale or Gripen could be a better strategic, economic, and military posture while investing heavily in 6th gen developments,” he explained.

Blondin dismissed claims that Canada could not support two different types of fighter jets and argued that the country could quickly purchase a new aircraft. Carney confirmed March 17 that he had discussions with French and British government officials about whether those countries could build a fighter jet in Canada. In addition, there have been suggestions that the Swedish-built Gripen, which came second in the Canadian fighter jet competition, could provide a solution for Canada. The Swedes had promised to build the Gripens in Canada. Blondin said Canada now needed to develop a defence strategy based on the new realities of changes in the U.S.

Former defence procurement chief Alan Williams and various defence analysts have warned that the F-35 represented a strategic vulnerability for Canada since the U.S. has total control over software upgrades and spare parts on the aircraft. Supporters of Canada’s F-35 purchase point to the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of contracts that Canadian companies have earned by supplying parts for the U.S. aircraft. That, in turn, has sustained or created Canadian aerospace jobs. But on Feb. 28 the National Post reported that Trump had told Lockheed Martin he wanted those jobs back in the U.S. when the Canadian contracts came up for renewal.

So basically. among other things, Trump wants to renege on the contracts with Canadian companies which helped secure the F35 deal with Canada. I suspect this F35 deal with Canada is cooked now, and Lockheed Martin can kiss the remaining F35 sales to Canada goodbye.

https://ottawacitizen.com/public-service/defence-watch/canadian-general-f-35-fighter-jet-deal

The F35 only won out against the Grippen because it made for closer cooperation with Nato partners. However, with more European Countries deciding that the US is an unreliable ally, they are also moving to French, Italian, Swedish or the joint European Equipment. Britain is currently shut out of that but that may well change. Mr Trump shot the us arms industry in the foot with one simple statement "We sell cut down versions of our equipment to our allies because they may not always be our allies." With one statement, he told potential customers that they wouldn't be getting what they thought they were buying from the US and that the US couldn't be relied upon to be an ally. It makes sense to look to suppliers in countries whose interests align more closely with your own. In Europe, that is other European countries.
European arms manufacturers most definitely like Mr Trump. Britain's BAE systems are hoping to get a slice of the pie.

 

[ChloeTzang]

I'm sorry. I'm ROTFLMAO. I bet Trump didn't expect THIS particular reaction.

American defense companies plan European poduction shift to bypass US weapons restrictions​

Facing mounting challenges from restrictive US trade policies, major (American) defense manufacturers are exploring European production alternatives to maintain global competitiveness and support international defense needs. These companies are multinationals, and they're driven by the bottom line, not patriotism. More than likely, all this stuff by Trump has blindsided them as well as everyone else and it's going to cost these big corporations billions, esp. the US military-industrial complex thats been raking it in hand over fist with all the sales as a result of the Russian invasion of Ukraine - and its not just sales to Ukraine. Now all those lovely European sales are not going to go to them, but to European companies. Oh woe is me. All I'll say is, remember JFK. Those who trifle with the big boys often find themselves targets. And Trump may be a billionaire but to these big companies he's just another inconvenient politician.

During recent meetings, leaders of major American defense companies have discussed plans to relocate production to Europe to avoid restrictions tied to the US President Donald Trump’s administration’s policies, says Chairman of the New Energy of Ukraine Alliance Valerii Borovyk, UkrInform reports. Reports have emerged that the US defense corporation Lockheed Martin may face billions in losses after a number of countries refused to purchase F-35 aircraft due to the US trade wars, US President Donald Trump’s foreign policy, and threats to invade Canada and Greenland. Meanwhile, Airbus is promoting Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 5 as an alternative to F-35s. His claims come during an online segment at the Ukraine’s Role and Place in Shaping the European Security and Defense System roundtable.

The military expert mentions that he is currently in Europe, where he held meetings with representatives from several leading global defense companies from the US, Poland, the UK, and Germany. Borovyk adds that while he could not reveal the specific names of the companies, he had met with the leadership of one of the largest American companies in the world. “They are all currently thinking about relocating production to Europe. They understand that they are facing significant problems obtaining export permits for their products. Therefore, everyone is considering how to help Ukraine effectively, while also figuring out how to avoid the impact of their own administration’s policies,” he explains. According to him, American arms manufacturers are currently exploring the possibility of “integrating with others” and setting up production in Europe—”not in Ukraine, but in neutral countries”—so they can contribute to the Russian-Ukrainian war with their technologies and continue to develop them.

And of course make big bucks out of European defence spending which they will be unable to do if they remain in the US. Can't see it wrking that well tho. Europeans will be reluctant to invest in ANY American military technology goimg forward. And mostly, there ARE alternatives.

https://euromaidanpress.com/2025/03...tion-shift-to-bypass-us-weapons-restrictions/

 

[ChloeTzang]

Good lord, does pissing off all of your allies really have negative consequences? Well I never! Washington is turning into the clingy ex who wants to get back together again. Trump (or some in his Adminisyration more likely) understand he’s shot himself in the foot on arms sales to Europe, and expecting the defense industry to flourish is rather optimistic when things like F35 orders are vanishing and Europe is looking at European contracts. THere's a reason US defense stocks are heading down. The writing is on the wall and even if Trump doesn't care, companies like Lockheer Martin sure do.

Trump’s rhetoric has been marked by contempt, insults, and public humiliation of friends and allies. and has done more than strain relations with Europe and Canada. It has broken them. America treated its closest allies not as trusted partners but as freeloaders, leeches, and rats, and not only insulted them but threatened territorial seizures of Canada and Greenland, and on top of that is obviously extrorting concessions from Ukraine.

You can’t spit in your allies’ faces and expect them to be there when you need them. The truth about trust is, it’s not just about policy. It's like porcelain. Strong when intact, but once cracked, it may hold for a while, but it never regains its original strength. Every threat, every sneer, every “pay up or else” moment emerging from Trump's mouth has deepened the fracture. The shift is real. Quiet. Permanent. It cannot be walked back. Not by Trump, and not by other US politicians. The damage has been done. This isn’t just a policy disagreement. It’s a strategic separation, and Trump has no idea of the damage he has done to the USA.

Once your allies stop believing in you, once they start looking elsewhere for safety and solidarity, they don’t come back. The US (who in the US?) may be "pushing back" against EU plans to curb American arms sales, but, simply, it’s too late for U.S. arms makers to put that one back in the bottle. Some residual arms sales will continue. There are deals underway, like thise with Poland and some of the F35 sales, that will continue. but the trust has been broken. Europe and Canada are building up their own defense industries, on their own terms, without American conditions or political chaos. Not out of spite, but out of necessity, and that will not change.

Trump has cost the US military / defense industry it's future outside the USA, and thousands upon thousands of jobs together with that. He's also left the USA without any allies, other than thse of convenience. This of course seems to go with his world view, but the consequences will impact the USA for the next couple of generations as the USA finds itself isolated.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-officials-object-european-push-buy-weapons-locally-2025-04-02/

The article is actually pretty funny in an unintentional way. It's like Rubio and the others have no idea that what Trump says is coming back to bite them. They really are delusional. You tell countries you'll sell them scaleddown capability and you don't expect them to go elsewhere? Duh. You tell them they might not be allies in future and you may be fighting them? I'm sure Canada and Denmark are taking that pretty seriously.

 

[ChloeTzang]

And so it goes.....

 

[ChloeTzang]

Lockheed Martin stock since Trump was elected

 

[ChloeTzang]

German car manufacturing giant Porsche is holding internal talks to re enter the defense industry after a multi-decade hiatus. Porsche SE Holding is reportedly prepared to deploy up to 2 billion euros for corporate investments in arms makers.

Let's hope they're a little more reliable this time round......

Porsche...coming soon to a battlefield near you......
https://esut.de/2025/04/meldungen/5...gt-den-wiedereinstieg-ins-ruestungsgeschaeft/

 

[HisArpy]

Good for them. The US broke the Soviet Union because of a arms race. If the rest of the world wants to arm themselves with second-rate aircraft at exorbitant costs just to deny Trump, let them fail by refusing to learn from history.

 

[DeYaKen]

Good for them. The US broke the Soviet Union because of a arms race. If the rest of the world wants to arm themselves with second-rate aircraft at exorbitant costs just to deny Trump, let them fail by refusing to learn from history.

Nothing second rate about the Saab Viggen, especially when compared to a cut down f35. Nothing second rate about Leopard and Chieftan Tanks, both have been proving themselves in Ukraine. Nothing second-rate about Storm Shadow missiles, just ask Vladimir Putin. Europe has learned enough from history to realise that the US hasn't changed its spots. It will expect it allies to help when the US feels threatened, but will not reciprocate unless the US is directly threatened. What Trump has done is to tear off the blinkers. That is a good thing, Europe has been kidding itself that NATO was a real alliance. In reality, the reliability of the US as an ally has been slipping away for decades. Back in the eighties Al Haig was talking about a "Nuclear War, limited to Europe, being a winnable proposition."

Now they know that the US cannot be relied upon, it makes sensethat their arms supplies sho0u

Good for them. The US broke the Soviet Union because of a arms race. If the rest of the world wants to arm themselves with second-rate aircraft at exorbitant costs just to deny Trump, let them fail by refusing to learn from history.

Nothing second rate about the Saab Viggen, especially when compared to a cut down f35. Nothing second rate about Leopard and Chieftan Tanks, both have been proving themselves in Ukraine. Nothing second-rate about Storm Shadow missiles, just ask Vladimir Putin. Europe has learned enough from history to realise that the US hasn't changed its spots. It will expect its allies to help when the US feels threatened, but will not reciprocate unless the US is directly threatened. What Trump has done is to tear off the blinkers. That is a good thing, Europe has been kidding itself that NATO was a real alliance. In reality, the reliability of the US as an ally has been slipping away for decades. Back in the eighties Al Haig was talking about a "Nuclear War, limited to Europe, being a winnable proposition."

Now they know that the US cannot be relied upon, it makes sense that their arms supplies should not come from a place that might cut off the supply of both the weapons and spare parts. Mr Trump told Europe point blank, you may not always be our ally. He proved this with his willingness to sell out Ukraine. His Envoy referred to the North Atlantic Treaty as just a piece of paper and likened it to Neville Chamberlaine's "piece of paper" in 1939. Of course, the Europeans are going to look to countries whose interests are more closely aligned with their own to supply arms. It has nothing to do with denying Trump. It is recognising what for them is the new reality.

 

[Politruk]

Good for them. The US broke the Soviet Union because of a arms race.

The USSR collapsed because of falling oil prices. The arms race had nothing to do with it.

 

[HisArpy]

Nothing second rate about the Saab Viggen, especially when compared to a cut down f35. Nothing second rate about Leopard and Chieftan Tanks, both have been proving themselves in Ukraine. Nothing second-rate about Storm Shadow missiles, just ask Vladimir Putin. Europe has learned enough from history to realise that the US hasn't changed its spots. It will expect it allies to help when the US feels threatened, but will not reciprocate unless the US is directly threatened. What Trump has done is to tear off the blinkers. That is a good thing, Europe has been kidding itself that NATO was a real alliance. In reality, the reliability of the US as an ally has been slipping away for decades. Back in the eighties Al Haig was talking about a "Nuclear War, limited to Europe, being a winnable proposition."

Now they know that the US cannot be relied upon, it makes sensethat their arms supplies sho0u

Nothing second rate about the Saab Viggen, especially when compared to a cut down f35. Nothing second rate about Leopard and Chieftan Tanks, both have been proving themselves in Ukraine. Nothing second-rate about Storm Shadow missiles, just ask Vladimir Putin. Europe has learned enough from history to realise that the US hasn't changed its spots. It will expect its allies to help when the US feels threatened, but will not reciprocate unless the US is directly threatened. What Trump has done is to tear off the blinkers. That is a good thing, Europe has been kidding itself that NATO was a real alliance. In reality, the reliability of the US as an ally has been slipping away for decades. Back in the eighties Al Haig was talking about a "Nuclear War, limited to Europe, being a winnable proposition."

Now they know that the US cannot be relied upon, it makes sense that their arms supplies should not come from a place that might cut off the supply of both the weapons and spare parts. Mr Trump told Europe point blank, you may not always be our ally. He proved this with his willingness to sell out Ukraine. His Envoy referred to the North Atlantic Treaty as just a piece of paper and likened it to Neville Chamberlaine's "piece of paper" in 1939. Of course, the Europeans are going to look to countries whose interests are more closely aligned with their own to supply arms. It has nothing to do with denying Trump. It is recognising what for them is the new reality.

And yet these EXACT SAME NATIONS rely on the US to bail their asses out because US arms and equipment are the best in the world.

Second rate is second rate no matter how "good" someone claims it to be.

 

[HisArpy]

The USSR collapsed because of falling oil prices. The arms race had nothing to do with it.

If that's what you want to believe, skippy, go right ahead.

Meanwhile the rest of us won't refuse to accept the inconvenient half of history that you leave out.

The total collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 took many in the West by surprise. The fundamental factors that contributed to collapse, including economic stagnation and the overextension of the military, were rooted in Soviet policies, but the Cold War and the U.S. policy of containment played a role as well. Cold War competition with the United States that had fed Soviet expansionism and the arms race helped to create the economic conditions that preceded the collapse.

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/pcw/108229.htm

 

[Fuzzy1975]

And yet these EXACT SAME NATIONS rely on the US to bail their asses out because US arms and equipment are the best in the world.

Second rate is second rate no matter how "good" someone claims it to be.

Do you ever read what you're replying too?

No one denies the defence spending of the past. Allies bought American, not because it was always the best ( yes some is, but not single type of equipment) , but because the US has a great arms manufacturing sector.

Now Trump has been pushing for years to get the EU etc to purchase more. Why? well the EU buys mostly from the US. Now with the tariffs, insults lack of respect and the lack of US assistance when needed, the EU has said ok, we can't depend upon the US, the US is pushing us away, so we'll make our own.

And Trump never saw it coming....