Ethics and "perverted justice"

Pure

Fiel a Verdad
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Posts
15,135
Here's a little slice of internet life. I give the information for comment:

http://www.perverted-justice.com/

Those in a group calling themselves "perverted justice" are dealing with the problem of internet 'predators' and pedophiles as follows.

One goes to a chatroom and poses as a 10 or 12 year old girl and strikes up conversation with a guy. When the conversation turns to sex, 'she' (sometimes a guy) shows interest, and gets into having him on video cam or in cybersex. She wants to talk and gets a phone number (calls it to verify, and hangs up) and asks for a picture.

The picture, name, and phone number and transcript are then published at the website. (Have a look.) Certain legal problems are avoided by labeling the persons 'wannabe pedophiles' or 'wannabe perverts.'

Those in the group, of course, remain anonymous, no phone numbers etc.

This is a kind of 'self help' or vigilantism that sometimes seems understandable and sometimes makes me uncomfortable (remember sites who post abortion doctors names, and addresses, and put X's through the pictures, as they get killed?).

Here's a simple extension of the method: perhaps does anyone find it makes them uncomfortable? A crusader against BDSM, starts at literotica, and looks for playmates. S/he goes into ICQ or IM as soon as possible for live chats (logged) and tries for phone contact and a picture. They then post the picture and transcripts of the "wannabe BDSM pervert" on the 'net.

J.

PS:
Legal note:
In terms of the law, it's not illegal, on phone or computer link, to talk or even talk sex with a minor; the breach of law is in setting up and physically going to a sexual encounter with a minor. The perverted justice folks, then, are, as they would put it, 'outing' those who, though within the law, are seemingly ready to break it.

FBI agents who pose as children on the 'net have a different approach based on setting up meetings; arguably the FBI efforts at setting up an actual crime attempt are undermined by the perverted justice folks' attempts to find and point out situations where a crime may be about to happen.)
 
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I find this an extremely difficult subject to discuss. In my professional life I often have come across internet vigilantes. There is a very thin line between what acceptable behaviour is and what is not.

I will try to crystallize my own thoughts before answering in more detail.

Francisco.
 
I met my Dom at a backgammon game site three yrs ago. Thank God. What you prepose hypothetically in regards to bdsm is scary.

This is a scary scenario in numerous ways. Not that my opinion matters, anyway....
 
A Desert Rose said:
This is a scary scenario in numerous ways. Not that my opinion matters, anyway....

DR, your opinion should matter as much as the next person's. I notice you add this at the end of a few posts and I hate to see you sell yourself so short and seemingly be prepared to accept the aggression of others to make you feel you have to excuse yourself for your thoughts as if you are inferior. They should matter just because you are a human, and also a part of this community, so seize your right to voice your opinions and post away please. The more the better. You are not inferior, nor do you make stupid statements.

Catalina:rose:
 
catalina_francisco said:
DR, your opinion should matter as much as the next person's. I notice you add this at the end of a few posts and I hate to see you sell yourself so short and seemingly be prepared to accept the aggression of others to make you feel you have to excuse yourself for your thoughts as if you are inferior. They should matter just because you are a human, and also a part of this community, so seize your right to voice your opinions and post away please. The more the better. You are not inferior, nor do you make stupid statements.

Catalina:rose:

Very nicely said, Catalina.

ADR has a long history of thought provoking posts, well thought out opinions and insights and ADR? I , for one, have missed you.

:rose:

Like Catalina, I will return after looking over the site. Too many amateurs think they have the answers and perhaps, this is one, or not.

I am curious to see how it plays out.
 
The subject of trying to prevent crimes before they happen (which is what it sounds like this vigilante group is doing) is a really interesting one. And it sounds good on the surface, a lot of the time. But it stands such a good chance of hurting innocent people without having to defend itself that it seems like something I would avoid as much as I possibly could.
 
I think that parents need to step up to the plate and raise their own kids.

It is madness to buy a kid a computer, and then do not learn how to use it so that you can monitor them.

I check the teenager's internet usage all the time, and I insist on having her passwords. I also have parental controls designed to restrict her internet usage when I am not around. Violations are dealt with swiftly and seriously. If she insists on being a statistic on a milk carton, she will have to wait until she is 18 and out of My house.
 
Ebonyfire said:
I think that parents need to step up to the plate and raise their own kids.

It is madness to buy a kid a computer, and then do not learn how to use it so that you can monitor them.

I check the teenager's internet usage all the time, and I insist on having her passwords. I also have parental controls designed to restrict her internet usage when I am not around. Violations are dealt with swiftly and seriously. If she insists on being a statistic on a milk carton, she will have to wait until she is 18 and out of My house.

Absolutely.

The common thread in it all is that kids (most of them, anyway) have parents. And parents need to be monitoring what, where and how much time is spent in front of the computer or the television. Furthermore, what your kids see and reads has to be age and maturity appropriate and needs to be discussed with them.

There are bad people out there. They are in parks, public schools and churches, as well as online. Leaving your child unchecked on the computer, surfing the net is the same as leaving your child in the local park or department store and walking away. The net is no more dangerous than anything else is.

Children need to be children and need to be that as long as they can. Childhood is gone in a blink of an eye, as it is. When they are allowed to surf the net, without guidance they are exposing themselves to things that children do not understand, are not emotionally or intellectually equipped to deal with and frankly, do not need to know about.
 
You know, the more I think about this, the madder it makes me.

People who are doing what Pure described in the opening post, are no different than any other fanatics in the real world.

And fanatics of any color or stripe are scary people. Everyone, including our children, should be as protected from them as we should be from preditors. And whether they are online or in your face, makes no difference.



And thank you MissT, Catalina and Pure for the kind words, above. :rose: (I rarely use emoticons but this is one appropriate time for them.)
 
Think about this: there is no oversight to a group like this, and anyone from an disgruntled former girlfriend to a business rival could post your name and picture on a site like this.
 
Johnny Mayberry said:
Think about this: there is no oversight to a group like this, and anyone from an disgruntled former girlfriend to a business rival could post your name and picture on a site like this.

Yea, and those same people could post your picture, describing you as a pervert on the lamp post on the corner of Las Vegas Blvd and Flamingo Rd. There is no difference.

The percentage of people who would see it, recognize it and/or care are about the same.

You seem to be suggesting that the internet needs to be policed. I beg to disagree with you. Policing the internet begins with personal responisibilty and ends there, too.
 
A Desert Rose said:
Yea, and those same people could post your picture, describing you as a pervert on the lamp post on the corner of Las Vegas Blvd and Flamingo Rd. There is no difference.

The percentage of people who would see it, recognize it and/or care are about the same.

You seem to be suggesting that the internet needs to be policed. I beg to disagree with you. Policing the internet begins with personal responisibilty and ends there, too.
And those same folks could lead the police to your front door.
 
Johnny Mayberry said:
And those same folks could lead the police to your front door.

And your point is?

They can come to my front door, with a warrent and just cause to search... for what?
 
A Desert Rose said:
And your point is?

They can come to my front door, with a warrent and just cause to search... for what?
Well, these days, they can grab you under teh new terrorism laws, and keep you for a few days...if I sound paranoid, it is because they really ARE out to get us! And sites like the one we're talking about are all the ammo someone would need to destroy your life, whether or not the charges are true.
 
A Desert Rose said:
Absolutely.

The common thread in it all is that kids (most of them, anyway) have parents. And parents need to be monitoring what, where and how much time is spent in front of the computer or the television. Furthermore, what your kids see and reads has to be age and maturity appropriate and needs to be discussed with them.

There are bad people out there. They are in parks, public schools and churches, as well as online. Leaving your child unchecked on the computer, surfing the net is the same as leaving your child in the local park or department store and walking away. The net is no more dangerous than anything else is.

Children need to be children and need to be that as long as they can. Childhood is gone in a blink of an eye, as it is. When they are allowed to surf the net, without guidance they are exposing themselves to things that children do not understand, are not emotionally or intellectually equipped to deal with and frankly, do not need to know about.

Amen, sister!
 
A Desert Rose said:

And fanatics of any color or stripe are scary people. Everyone, including our children, should be as protected from them as we should be from preditors. And whether they are online or in your face, makes no difference

That is the truth! Just remember atrocities are done in the name of good, just as much as they are done in the name of evil.

I am not gonna bore this list with the many examples I could dig up.
 
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Johnny Mayberry said:
Well, these days, they can grab you under teh new terrorism laws, and keep you for a few days...if I sound paranoid, it is because they really ARE out to get us! And sites like the one we're talking about are all the ammo someone would need to destroy your life, whether or not the charges are true.

You are absolutely correct. I couldn't agree with you more.

But we also need to keep the internet in perspective... it is no different than anything else. One can be vulnerable anywhere and at any time in life. It is up to the individual to protect himself, or minors under his care, and to play responsibly and safely.

There are bad people out there and they look for opportunities to hurt others.
 
Warning, Rant ahead..

I popped in to visit the site... Not a happy go lucky place. Did anyone go to the Patriot Network? (one of perverted justice's patrons/affiliates, whatever.) I didn't get real deep as my sense of freedom and patriotism was deeply offended.

My problem with pj is that anyone can use it to screw anyone over. Take the transcrips from conversations with the peds. Any reasonably intelligent being with a bit of computer savvy could fake that. Hell, I could do it and I'm not at all technically brilliant, computer wise.

The thing is I am all for law enforcement bodies doing this; looking for pedophiles and all that. I want these assholes off the streets. One big reason for law enforcement is that people like me wouldn't be able to control themselves around a pedophile caught in the act. The person would need to be scraped up off the sidewalk with a spatula and taken to the morgue in ziplock bag when I got done with them! And yes, I meant person, while most pedophiles are men, there are women involved.

rant mode off....

(edited because I can't spell when I'm ranting..)
 
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A Desert Rose said:
You are absolutely correct. I couldn't agree with you more.

But we also need to keep the internet in perspective... it is no different than anything else. One can be vulnerable anywhere and at any time in life. It is up to the individual to protect himself, or minors under his care, and to play responsibly and safely.

There are bad people out there and they look for opportunities to hurt others.
I don't think we disagree at all...:p
 
Re: Warning, Rant ahead..

D's mariposa said:
I popped in to visit the site... Not a happy go lucky place. Did anyone go to the Patriot Network? (one of perverted justice's patrons/affiliates, whatever.) I didn't get real deep as my sense of freedom and patriotism was deeply offended.

My problem with pj is that anyone can use it to screw anyone over. Take the transcrips from conversations with the peds. Any reasonably intelligent being with a bit of computer savvy could fake that. Hell, I could do it and I'm not at all technically brilliant, computer wise.

The thing is I am all for law enforcement bodies doing this; looking for pedophiles and all that. I want these assholes off the streets. One big reason for law enforcement is that people like me wouldn't be able to control themselves around a pedophile caught in the act. The person would need to be scraped up off the sidewalk with a spatula and taken to the morgue in ziplock bag when I got done with them! And yes, I meant person, while most pedophiles are men, there are women involved.

rant mode off....

(edited because I can't spell when I'm ranting..)

I always said that if anyone laid a hand on My girls, he would know the true use of a Ginzu knife!
 
Johnny Mayberry said:
BTW, I agree with everyone who says that parents should be parents to their children.
i am, and always will be.

They won't need a ziploc bag and spatula.

The individual in question gets a 24 hour grace period to turn themselves into the police. After that, all bets are off.

i'll start with piano wire and a pair of tin snips. i'll move on to medieval after that.
 
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