Equality and STEM

[Que]

Actual racists arguing racist positions about black people are not talking about any one black individual so it would be just silly to typify their racist ideas as racist towards any particular black guy simply because they're espousing racist ideas.

I do apologize, though. When I speak of stupid ignorant argumentative bitches who cannot intellectually defend their ideas and resort to appeals to authority I mean that in the general sense not as an attack on you personally.

 

[Que]

I'm going to attempt and probably fail to walk a very fine line here because I don't really believe in Kink or lifestyle shaming.

You speak of a patriarchal structure as if it's still exists in modern society. You are saying structure; in other words, it is endemic and it is pervasive. We aren't talking about vestigial pockets of patriarchal privilege we are talking about an overarching societal bent that benefits men at the expense of women. I'm not asserting that you are saying that it occurs with every man and within every interaction between men and women but that society writ large still holds the general view that men are in charge.

How do you suppose that you've been able to walk through these raindrops to have the relationships that you have with men who tolerate behavior that would have gotten you stoned in the fairly recent past?

Again I'm really trying hard not to throw stones here.

But I want you to imagine a man doing exactly the sort of things with the freedom and the support of various women in his life that you currently enjoy.

Female hypergamy is becoming rather accepted. We've always somewhat had that from the male perspective because sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive. Church Eve a quality or I would maintain actual advantages for women in that area would be absolutely impossible if a patriarchal structure still existed it would prevent that even if with nothing more than to simply shame women.

Okay I'm sorry... that's a garbled mess I have no idea what I actually said in voice to text that came out Church Eve so I can't possibly fix that.

 

[von_Bismarck]

Actual racists arguing racist positions about black people are not talking about any one black individual so it would be just silly to typify their racist ideas as racist towards any particular black guy simply because they're espousing racist ideas.

I do apologize, though. When I speak of stupid ignorant argumentative bitches who cannot intellectually defend their ideas and resort to appeals to authority I mean that in the general sense not as an attack on you personally.

I'm going to attempt and probably fail to walk a very fine line here because I don't really believe in Kink or lifestyle shaming.

You speak of a patriarchal structure as if it's still exist in modern society. You were saying structure in other words it is endemic and it is pervasive. We aren't talking about is that Sturgill pockets of patriarchal privilege we are talking about an overarching societal bent that benefits men at the expense of women. I'm not asserting that you are saying that it occurs with every man in with in every interaction between men and women but the society writ large still holds the general view that men are in charge.

How do you suppose that you've been able to walk through these raindrops to have the relationships that you have with men who tolerate behavior that would have gotten you stoned in the fairly recent past?

Again I'm really trying hard not to throw stones here.

But I want you to imagine a man doing exactly the sort of things with the freedom and the support of various women in his life that you currently enjoy.

Female hypergamy is becoming rather accepted. We've always somewhat had that from the male perspective because sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive. Church Eve a quality or I would maintain actual advantages for women in that area would be absolutely impossible if a patriarchal structure still existed checking into nothing more than to Simply shame women.

Okay I'm sorry that's a garbled mess I have no idea what I actually said in voice to text that came out Church Eve so I can't possibly fix that.

Tl;dr.

 

[KimGordon67]

I'm going to attempt and probably fail to walk a very fine line here because I don't really believe in Kink or lifestyle shaming.

You speak of a patriarchal structure as if it's still exist in modern society. You were saying structure in other words it is endemic and it is pervasive. We aren't talking about is that Sturgill pockets of patriarchal privilege we are talking about an overarching societal bent that benefits men at the expense of women. I'm not asserting that you are saying that it occurs with every man in with in every interaction between men and women but the society writ large still holds the general view that men are in charge.

How do you suppose that you've been able to walk through these raindrops to have the relationships that you have with men who tolerate behavior that would have gotten you stoned in the fairly recent past?

Again I'm really trying hard not to throw stones here.

But I want you to imagine a man doing exactly the sort of things with the freedom and the support of various women in his life that you currently enjoy.

Female hypergamy is becoming rather accepted. We've always somewhat had that from the male perspective because sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive. Church Eve a quality or I would maintain actual advantages for women in that area would be absolutely impossible if a patriarchal structure still existed checking into nothing more than to Simply shame women.

Okay I'm sorry that's a garbled mess I have no idea what I actually said in voice to text that came out Church Eve so I can't possibly fix that.

I'm going to assume you're discussing my fairly easily-located polyamory here (although at present it's more theory than practice).

In response to the first point - I have relationships with men whose masculinity isn't dependent on the 'ownership' of women, or of being the 'alpha' in a relationship - sometimes they ARE the 'alpha', but their sense of who they are is never dependent on that. I always have had relationships with men like that, even when I was monogamous. It's not an active choice, but I pretty much only date, have relationships with, and probably have friendships with men who I would define as broadly feminist in their outlook, probably because any guy who wasn't would find me insufferable, and vice versa.

In response to the second point - I actually know of at least one man on Lit who has a much more poly life right now than I do, with the full support of the women involved. In actual practice, not in theory.

The fact that I can be polyamorous now without expecting to have the shit beaten out of me isn't 'female privilege' - it's a consequence of feminism.

 

[KimGordon67]

I'm going to assume you're discussing my fairly easily-located polyamory here (although at present it's more theory than practice).

In response to the first point - I have relationships with men whose masculinity isn't dependent on the 'ownership' of women, or of being the 'alpha' in a relationship - sometimes they ARE the 'alpha', but their sense of who they are is never dependent on that. I always have had relationships with men like that, even when I was monogamous. It's not an active choice, but I pretty much only date, have relationships with, and probably have friendships with men who I would define as broadly feminist in their outlook, probably because any guy who wasn't would find me insufferable, and vice versa.

In response to the second point - I actually know of at least one man on Lit who has a much more poly life right now than I do, with the full support of the women involved. In actual practice, not in theory.

The fact that I can be polyamorous now without expecting to have the shit beaten out of me isn't 'female privilege' - it's a consequence of feminism.

I fully expect a response from someone to this suggested that my male partners have been pussy whipped or somehow otherwise feminised. I really don't care, although it's also not the case - I'm inherently attracted to masculine men (and sometimes to masculine women), and have no need to pussy whip anyone to validate anything.

 

[Que]

At what point will you concede that feminism has reached its goals and will you then stop browbeating men about the sins of our forebears?

At this point women are already admitted to University at a higher rate than men, they are admitted to graduate programs at a higher rate than men. Women without children already make more than men. Differences between the pay that men and women receive can be accounted for by simply acknowledging risk and actual hours worked. At which point are trotsky's pigs all going to be equal?

 

[Pookie]

Okay I'm sorry... that's a garbled mess I have no idea what I actually said in voice to text that came out Church Eve so I can't possibly fix that.

Voice to text, huh? It explains so much. You should've told us this years ago. We (well some of us ... maybe) wouldn't have been so hard on you.

But you know people are gonna make fun of your speech impediment now. I won't though.

[voice=Que]Acidic risk event colorful tame treat ambitious discussion paltry sail feeble military.[/voice]

And I sincerely mean that.

 

[Que]

I fully expect a response from someone to this suggested that my male partners have been pussy whipped or somehow otherwise feminised. I really don't care, although it's also not the case - I'm inherently attracted to masculine men (and sometimes to masculine women), and have no need to pussy whip anyone to validate anything.

Are personally would not suggest that. What I'm suggesting is we live in a society where men can be feminists if they choose to. Is the patriarchal structure that you suggest still exist those men would be shamed into keeping you in line. There aren't.

..and it's not because they're big strong tough men who are willing to buck this horrible patriarchal structure; it's because nobody says anything to them about it.

 

[Pookie]

Tl;dr.

His voice to text said the same thing.

 

[KimGordon67]

At what point will you concede that feminism has reached its goals and will you then stop browbeating men about the sins of our forebears?

At this point women are already admitted to University at a higher rate than men, they are admitted to graduate programs at a higher rate than men. Women without children already make more than men. Differences between the pay that men and women receive can be accounted for by simply acknowledging risk and actual hours worked. At which point are trotsky's pigs all going to be equal?

I'm just going to ignore the point about 'browbeating men' etc etc, because I assume you're talking about some other people who identify as feminist there.

For me - the actual response would be too complex to both with, but the Readers Digest version would be something along the lines of 'when gender no longer constrains the choices that individuals make about their lives'. (I've written that off the cuff - it probably could use some finessing, but I'm literally in the middle of something else right now.)

I'm sure you and Bot et al will pick apart most of the specific words in there so as to lose any sense of the what I actually and clearly mean, but whatever.

 

[Que]

Voice to text, huh? It explains so much. You should've told us this years ago. We (well some of us ... maybe) wouldn't have been so hard on you.

But you know people are gonna make fun of your speech impediment now. I won't though.

[voice=Que]Acidic risk event colorful tame treat ambitious discussion paltry sail feeble military.[/voice]

And I sincerely mean that.

~shrug~

Sometimes I go back and proofread sometimes not but regardless in order to proofread I have to hit post before I go back and proofread because it does not allow me to proof until I post or I can't zoom to be able to read the actual letters and insert the cursor where an edit needs to be made.

 

[KimGordon67]

Are personally would not suggest that. What I'm suggesting is we live in a society where men can be feminists if they choose to. Is the patriarchal structure that you suggest still exist those men would be shamed into keeping you in line. There aren't.

..and it's not because they're big strong tough men who are willing to buck this horrible patriarchal structure; it's because nobody says anything to them about it.

That's precisely why we don't talk about it outside of anonymous contexts. It's not to protect ME ... well, actually it partially is to protect me, because people still have some pretty strong morals about monogamy, but it's also very definitely to protect the men involved.

 

[Que]

I'm just going to ignore the point about 'browbeating men' etc etc, because I assume you're talking about some other people who identify as feminist there.

For me - the actual response would be too complex to both with, but the Readers Digest version would be something along the lines of 'when gender no longer constrains the choices that individuals make about their lives'. (I've written that off the cuff - it probably could use some finessing, but I'm literally in the middle of something else right now.)

I'm sure you and Bot et al will pick apart most of the specific words in there so as to lose any sense of the what I actually and clearly mean, but whatever.

You see that is convenient because we will never achieve that. The reason we will never achieve that is because there are actual ingrained Jeff biological differences between men and women how we view things.

So as a woman that should be encouraging because there will still be reason to have minority and female owned company set asides on federal contracts just for example. The mere fact that women as a group will never achieve the level of success that dedicated men who devote themselves to success at the exclusion of their families where women tend to not do that will mean that we will always have special programs to encourage women and girls to succeed. Isn't that handy?

 

[Que]

I have no idea what an ingrained Jeff is.

 

[Hal9000_]

At what point will you concede that feminism has reached its goals and will you then stop browbeating men about the sins of our forebears?

At this point women are already admitted to University at a higher rate than men, they are admitted to graduate programs at a higher rate than men. Women without children already make more than men. Differences between the pay that men and women receive can be accounted for by simply acknowledging risk and actual hours worked. At which point are trotsky's pigs all going to be equal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBiewQrpBBA

 

[KimGordon67]

You see that is convenient because we will never achieve that. The reason we will never achieve that is because there are actual ingrained Jeff biological differences between men and women how we view things.

So as a woman that should be encouraging because there will still be reason to have minority and female owned company set asides on federal contracts just for example. The mere fact that women as a group will never achieve the level of success that dedicated men who devote themselves to success at the exclusion of their families where women tend to not do that will mean that we will always have special programs to encourage women and girls to succeed. Isn't that handy?

What? How is 'men devoting themselves to success at the exclusion of their families' a biological thing?

 

[Que]

That's precisely why we don't talk about it outside of anonymous contexts. It's not to protect ME ... well, actually it partially is to protect me, because people still have some pretty strong morals about monogamy, but it's also very definitely to protect the men involved.

Well I have to accept that that's true.

I don't know if maybe that's simply invalidates my point or if maybe my point was kind of irrelevant because the whole thing is sort of lifestyle and knk based and Society really isn't very enlightened on any of that.

I appreciate though that you did let me walk that fine line and I hope no offence on that particular issue was taken.

 

[Pookie]

~shrug~

Sometimes I go back and proofread sometimes not but regardless in order to proofread I have to hit post before I go back and proofread because it does not allow me to proof until I post or I can't zoom to be able to read the actual letters and insert the cursor where an edit needs to be made.

What are you doing with your hands during all of this? Seems like technology isn't your friend.

 

[KimGordon67]

What are you doing with your hands during all of this? Seems like technology isn't your friend.

Contemporary technology is very much not the friend of the short-sighted. Squinting at a screen and thinking 'looks about right' is a dangerous game. Especially when your word-check thing knows you say 'fuck' a lot and actually mean it.

 

[Que]

What are you doing with your hands during all of this? Seems like technology isn't your friend.

I'm an admitted luddite. I was on the internet before it was called the internet but these days I strictly use a phone. Both my laptops sit idle. I have a collection of desktops somewhere in storage but I wouldn't even attempt to dig them out. I haven't typed on a keyboard in at least two years.

I went through a period of time when I was using a four-year-old smartphone on purpose. I always got the exact same phone each time I broke it and I never updated the software from the original Android software. I find it pretty interesting that every Android develops its own personality. As it tries to learn to recognize my speech it injects some sort of weird algorithm in there that changes from phone to phone. This particular one does Voice to Text better than any I've had before. In the past I've had phones that I had to edit every single post. Now I don't really bother that much. This one is more or less intelligible. Unintelligibility is more a function of free-association than it is the phone.

Go to that might be that this is a quad-core phone and it has more internal memory than any that I've had before and that might be helping the situation somewhat.

 

[Que]

Contemporary technology is very much not the friend of the short-sighted. Squinting at a screen and thinking 'looks about right' is a dangerous game. Especially when your word-check thing knows you say 'fuck' a lot and actually mean it.

This particular phone for some reason and I swear I went back in and told it that it's okay to cuss refuses to let me cuss you should feel somewhat better because every single time I type f*** off I actually have to go back in and change it.

I'm not a big fan of declaring Victory simply because you send your opponent into a sputtering rage because I don't think that requires any particular rhetorical skill. It just requires the ability to be offensive.

I have to admit that I got a little bit of glee after sending you into a sputtering rage the other night simply because you tend to be on message and you tend to want to back up what you say.

I actually identify with one of your chief complaints: that you take the time to type out a fairly long post with several points made and they (we, me included) seize on one point and go off on that ignoring all the rest of what you had to say. I've noticed myself doing that on some of your post and I'm not surprised that people do it on mine it's a function of the lack of brevity.

Botany boy is the only person on the board who takes the time to break up a person's post into several different sections so that they can respond to each of your points which is really quite fair.

I used to do that sort of thing myself because I actually do like going point-by-point but it's physically impossible to do on a phone. It would take hours to deconstruct the Post in that way. Another method that I used to use would be to work on each point that the person was making within their quoted post but changing the color font so it's clear what my responses are. Again that's not something that can be done on a phone.

 

[Pookie]

I'm an admitted luddite. I was on the internet before it was called the internet but these days I strictly use a phone. Both my laptops sit idle. I have a collection of desktops somewhere in storage but I wouldn't even attempt to dig them out. I haven't typed on a keyboard in at least two years.

I went through a period of time when I was using a four-year-old smartphone on purpose. I always got the exact same phone each time I broke it and I never updated the software from the original Android software. I find it pretty interesting that every Android develops its own personality. As it tries to learn to recognize my speech it injects some sort of weird algorithm in there that changes from phone to phone. This particular one does Voice to Text better than any I've had before. In the past I've had phones that I had to edit every single post. Now I don't really bother that much. This one is more or less intelligible. Unintelligibility is more a function of free-association than it is the phone.

Go to that might be that this is a quad-core phone and it has more internal memory than any that I've had before and that might be helping the situation somewhat.

I'm not even sure how you can proofread some of your posts on a phone. Maybe you should look into a tablet.

 

[Que]

I'm not even sure how you can proofread some of your posts on a phone. Maybe you should look into a tablet.

I probably should just dig out my laptop one of my laptops I'm not sure whether I even know the password to get into it because I sort of acquired it from somebody who came to owe me something. The one I like is pretty ancient but it needs its battery rebuilt. I actually have a nice battery rebuilding shop near me but I just haven't drug it down there.

Well I'm home I'm sleeping though and on the road on purpose I've always had inexpensive phones. The kind of area is I'm in I'm at a direct risk of being robbed. The risk is probably fairly remote though

 

[Hal9000_]

Candi?

 

[Que]

It took me a long time to get accurate with being able to hit the button for posting a link or enclosing a picture. Those virtual buttons are about the quarter the size of the head of a pin on my phone, yeah, I add your fingertips dance upon the head of them. I don't know what I do if I had actual fat fingers.