Electricity: non political/political

[cloudy]

They're sending the Enterprise?

It was the second statement I quoted that I have a problem with.

I have a problem with it too, but I'm trying very hard to be civil.

"forgive them, for they know not..."

 

[Pure]

RA But there is a signifigant social safety net, and in this country no one who is willing to work and avoid destructive behaviors is forced to live on the street.

So, considering persons doing poorly on reservations, one infers from the above position:

either 1) they are unwilling to work, or 2) they cannot/do not avoid destructive behaviors. (or both).

those in category 1) can't be helped due to their orneriness.

those in category 2) can't be helped because of their carrying on 'destructive behaviors' due to profound social and personal dysfunction

---
this 'reasoning', then, is the basis for many/most Americans' attitude of 'fuck 'em'.

 

[cloudy]

RA But there is a signifigant social safety net, and in this country no one who is willing to work and avoid destructive behaviors is forced to live on the street.

So, considering persons doing poorly on reservations, one infers from the above position:

either 1) they are unwilling to work, or 2) they cannot/do not avoid destructive behaviors. (or both).

those in category 1) can't be helped due to their orneriness.

those in category 2) can't be helped because of their carrying on 'destructive behaviors' due to profound social and personal dysfunction

---
this 'reasoning', then, is the basis for many/most Americans' attitude of 'fuck 'em'.

I think you've nailed it, Pure.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Roxanne has good intentions, I'm sure, but like most, has probably never set foot on a reserve, and most likely you and I are the only natives she ever comes in contact with. Also like most, all she probably "knows" is the half-truths that most hear.

Reservations....the final frontier.

Alright, Cloudy, what if gave you $25,000 for every man, woman and child on Pine Ridge ($375,000,000). What would you do with it?

Here's a couple ideas. Move out those who are capable of working. Establish them in places where there is a viable economy, get them some job training, and help them find jobs and housing. That wouldn't take much money because in a short time they would be self-sufficient. You could put people in clusters so they could maintain a community. You could give them a continuing stake in the rez. This is the model that my ancestors followed when faced with a similar social catastrophe - the Irish potato famine.

That would leave the tough nut of those who are too sick or broken to ever work again. These people are essentially nursing home patients at this point. You might start one with the unused money. It could provide jobs for those who aren't completely broken but aren't really capable of funtioning in the larger economy, either.

Now, what do you suppose would happen if you just handed everyone a check for $25k? The shudder that just ran through you is evidence of my suspicion that profound social and personal dysfunction is at the core of the problems.

Once again, I don't want to be simplistic. This post is primarilly a thought experiment - I know it would take a hell of a lot more to fix the problem. The ideas I've listed here almost certainly show that I don't have a clue. But - do you have a clue? Does anyone? I promise to try to not be simplistic, but I would ask you to do the same.




PS. I admit my ignorance and am willing to be educated. But I am offended by simplistic victimology pandering just as much as you are offended by the simplistic "get a job" posturing of shallow conservatives.

 

[kendo1]

You're doing lots of fancy dancing and 'large font' asserting. The issue is very simple. It is agreed by all that usable oil reserves are dwindling. The US consumers use a lot of oil products.

NOW. The American/multinational oil companies are selling gasoline in the US at a prince the Europeans find "cheap." And US consumers are using lots of it. So in terms of US social or public policy, is the US price of gasoline something to be left alone [i.e., decided by the oil companies, based on present taxes], or is it something to be altered [presumably added to, by a further tax; Roxanne proposing $2/gallon]. Please explain your answer.
You sound like a school teacher!
To argue for the second is presumably based on the idea of suppressing demand; and doing so, by measures over and above the 'natural' rise of prices one might expect for a dwindling resource.

The choice is yours, the US.

I would suggest that the price of petrol should be put up to force smaller, more efficient engines to be used, thereby prolonging what reserves there are. Surely that is logical?

It would not go down well with the electorate though. A death sentence to those in power.



I say again, (as I understand the situation) that the US is not using all the sources it could within its own borders, but instead is buying oil from outwith its borders, to have a supply in reserve once other sources have dried up.

Similarly, Saudi Arabia is building nuclear power plants for the coming shortage of oil.


Have a nice day. I'm off to bed.

 

[cloudy]

Alright, Cloudy, what if gave you $25,000 for every man, woman and child on Pine Ridge ($375,000,000). What would you do with it?

Here's a couple ideas. Move out those who are capable of working. Establish them in places where there is a viable economy, get them some job training, and help them find jobs and housing. That wouldn't take much money because in a short time they would be self-sufficient. You could put people in clusters so they could maintain a community. You could give them a continuing stake in the rez. This is the model that my ancestors followed when faced with a similar social catastrophe - the Irish potato famine.

That would leave the tough nut of those who are too sick or broken to ever work again. These people are essentially nursing home patients at this point. You might start one with the unused money. It could provide jobs for those who aren't completely broken but aren't really capable of funtioning in the larger economy, either.

Now, what do you suppose would happen if you just handed everyone a check for $25k? The shudder that just ran through you is evidence of my suspicion that profound social and personal dysfunction is at the core of the problems.

Once again, I don't want to be simplistic. This post is primarilly a thought experiment - I know it would take a hell of a lot more to fix the problem. The ideas I've listed here almost certainly show that I don't have a clue. But - do you have a clue? Does anyone? I promise to try to not be simplistic, but I would ask you to do the same.

First of all....no, I wouldn't move them away from Pine Ridge. That's their home, the place of the sun dances, etc. I don't think they should have to move to be able to live.

eta: I don't think many people realize the web of relationships there are on reservations. On ours, there are maybe four main surnames, and young people complain that there's no one to date because they're related to everyone. You can't just move some here and some there because you would be literally breaking up families.

I would start some industry there, instead (indeed, this is happening now, albeit at a slow rate), that would supply some much needed jobs. I would also invest in the schools - see to it they have the books, the teachers, etc., that are needed so that the younger people coming up would have the training and the education they need to succeed.

And....some money would have to go into programs designed to help those that need it. Not with the help that westerners decide is needed, but healing centers, etc. like what we have on our reserve.

But...education and industry (jobs) are what's needed most. It's not that they're unwilling to work (I know from our reserve that that's not the case), it's that jobs are so scarce.

 

[Pure]

can't resist this, cloudy,

in case you missed it.

a nice concise statement by a well known conservative thinker, Roxanne has often referred to (Sowell)[correction: Murray].

The Hallmark of the Underclass:
The poverty Katrina underscored is primarily moral, not material.

By extension: For those doing poorly on reservations (or in the cities), the issue is primarily "moral poverty."

I love that phrase: I picture a portly Victorian gentleman, bewhiskered, annoyed to the point of reflecting aloud, by the pestering of child beggars. He is, of course, returning from a visit to one of the more economically priced, ten-shilling London whores, whom he does not tip because of the 'moral dangers' involved (lessening her incentive to improve herself).

 

[cloudy]

in case you missed it.

a nice concise statement by a well known conservative thinker, Roxanne has often referred to (Sowell).

The Hallmark of the Underclass:
The poverty Katrina underscored is primarily moral, not material.

By extension: For those doing poorly on reservations (or in the cities), the issue is primarily "moral poverty."

I love that phrase: I picture a portly Victorian gentleman, bewhiskered, annoyed to the point of reflecting aloud, by the pestering of child beggars. He is, of course, returning from a visit to one of the more economically priced, ten-shilling London whores, whom he does not tip because of the 'moral dangers' involved (lessening her incentive to improve herself).

LOL

The visual is priceless.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

First of all....no, I wouldn't move them away from Pine Ridge. That's their home, the place of the sun dances, etc. I don't think they should have to move to be able to live.

eta: I don't think many people realize the web of relationships there are on reservations. On ours, there are maybe four main surnames, and young people complain that there's no one to date because they're related to everyone. You can't just move some here and some there because you would be literally breaking up families.

I would start some industry there, instead (indeed, this is happening now, albeit at a slow rate), that would supply some much needed jobs. I would also invest in the schools - see to it they have the books, the teachers, etc., that are needed so that the younger people coming up would have the training and the education they need to succeed.

And....some money would have to go into programs designed to help those that need it. Not with the help that westerners decide is needed, but healing centers, etc. like what we have on our reserve.

But...education and industry (jobs) are what's needed most. It's not that they're unwilling to work (I know from our reserve that that's not the case), it's that jobs are so scarce.

I added the this as an edit to my post above while you were writing this one:

"PS. I admit my ignorance and am willing to be educated. But I am offended by simplistic victimology pandering just as much as you are offended by the simplistic "get a job" posturing of shallow conservatives."

I thank you for not doing that.

Regarding starting some industry there. I'm not sure that would work, but won't say it's impossible. The thing is, it has to be a genuine going concern that can provide a decent return on investment in it's own right, otherwise it's just another form of welfare and will self destruct. I can't imagine what that would be. You can't out-do the Chinese for hard work at low wages, or the Indians for the kinds of boring wonky-things they are willing to do for cheap.

I don't know if it's helpful to just say, "It's their home." County Mayo was my ancestors' home. In this country my grandparents and their parents never said "Mayo" without adding the epigram, "God help us."

And besides, is this pathetic remnant of the original Souix territory really their "home" in the sense you mean? I said give the emigre's a stake in the place somehow - you say how - which is more than my ancestors had when they left. But escape for a generation or three may be the only viable solution.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

LOL

The visual is priceless.

Yes, the visual is priceless. The sneering by some people at thoughtful ideas while not offering a single constructive thought of one's own isn't worth a bucket of warm spit.

 

[cloudy]

I added the this as an edit to my post above while you were writing this one:

"PS. I admit my ignorance and am willing to be educated. But I am offended by simplistic victimology pandering just as much as you are offended by the simplistic "get a job" posturing of shallow conservatives."

I thank you for not doing that.

Regarding starting some industry there. I'm not sure that would work, but won't say it's impossible. The thing is, it has to be a genuine going concern that can provide a decent return on investment in it's own right, otherwise it's just another form of welfare and will self destruct. I can't imagine what that would be. You can't out-do the Chinese for hard work at low wages, or the Indians for the kinds of boring wonky-things they are willing to do for cheap.

I don't know if it's helpful to just say, "It's their home." County Mayo was my ancestors' home. In this country my grandparents and their parents never said "Mayo" without adding the epigram, "God help us."

And besides, is this pathetic remnant of the original Souix territory really their "home" in the sense you mean? I said give the emigre's a stake in the place somehow - you say how - which is more than my ancestors had when they left. But escape for a generation or three may be the only viable solution.

There's some industry going there already, just not enough (from what I understand, they're taking on the outsourcing of some payroll, etc., jobs from other companies - things that can be done from a distance).

Yes...it's their home. There is sacred ground there. I know that sounds simplistic to some, but to us it's very important.

 

[wazhazhe]

I have a problem with it too, but I'm trying very hard to be civil.

"forgive them, for they know not..."

I'm trying also but her response to my post makes it extremely difficult.

I'll be back in an hour or so.

 

[amicus]

I saw how the thread went from an energy crisis to the Reservation and all the Casino's, one just down the street on the beach and several more within a 50 mile radius, damned Redskins anyways, couldn't play football if someone gave them the whole pigskin.

I think it was Lady Godiva, one chilly, with nipples erect was delayed by a crowd of hungry Parisians demanding Cake, we must have Cake. Since there was no cakery anywhere, the charming lady suggested, "Let the peasants eat bread, then, bread you fools!" and they did, they bred and bred and then all migrated to the foreign legion and becames a pain in the as in Algeria and elsewhere.

Not very workable to send all the black shoe shine boys back to Zimbabwe, the Muslims would send them right back, and Siberia is just not equiped to handle all the native siberians who left for greener pastures in the lower 48 and are now esconced on Rez's all over the place when they are not counting the filthy greendback dollar bills and worn quarters from the slots.

Except for escaped Canadians, who should be sent back, I think it is an unworkable solution to return all migrants to their country of origin; go back far enough and Roxelby and I might be on the same boat to potato land although I may have to make a stop to see Locky the Nessian monster of my antiquity.

There....now that I have solved all of our problems, what could ever be left to accomplish?

Well...one might take the government and taxation completely out of the energy biz and have the entire congress go down on their knees and beg the oil companies to bail us out; I am sure, for a price, they would in short order.

Next one might consider immediately closing all public supported schools, abolish property taxes entirely. That would accomplish two things, a free market quality of education available to all and within a generation, a much higher standard of living as a result of a more intelligent and better educated population and secondly, the price of home ownership would fall tremendously and Cloudy and cohorts might even be able to finance and buy a second tipi.

Next, all that land owned by federal, state and local governments, all those national parks all those wildlife preservations and watershed, mitigated areas should be immediately placed on the open market for quick sale. Financing could be provided as a fire sale as Fanny Mae and all the other government lending agencies get pink slips and must find private sources to fund their peccadillos.

Union labor should only be performed by senior citizens over 80 and children under 8 as both are accustomed to cradle to grave care and would fit right in with unionist mentality equitable to the definition of a 'bureaucrat', if ya know what I mean, forbidding by law the use of rational thought in the work process.

And let us not forget that biggest swindle of all, social security....off with their heads! Set my people free from government control, allow them to invest their own damned money....you thrice damned fools!

There. Take that!

amicus...(nope, haven't even had a drink yet but I am approaching lift off.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

More complex than you or most seem to realize. Your solution, then, is to assimilate, no?

Why should they have to to live? We have a culture that most of us are proud of, and work very hard to keep. We shouldn't have to give that up in order to be able to live.

No, not necessarily assimilate. That's why I suggested settling in clusters. But look - there is nothing there to support 15,000 souls, and no economically rational reason for there to be anything there. You can snap at "economcally rational," but it is reality, and if you ignore it you get what you got. One thing you sure don't have is human capital, which is the only conceivable thing that could justify some enterprise there (business, not starship), and I don't see any conceivable way to build human capital in the current social milieu there.

Keep one foot in the rez in various ways, but get the hell out to someplace that has a viable economy. Build some wealth, build some human capital - you can't do a damned thing for your community without them, except beg, or fight, and I don't think those as doing a damned thing.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I appreciate that I don't know the details of that place, and appreciate that you both are being generous to me in spite of that. I hope that you also can appreciate that my dispassionate and hardheaded ideas from a "homo-economicus with a heart" point of view may be valuable in providing a more productive lens through which to look at the problems (certainly more productive than sterile victimology), even though that lens may need a lot of focusing, and hope that you won't be patronizing.

 

[cloudy]

I appreciate that I don't know the details of that place, and appreciate that you both are being generous to me in spite of that. I hope that you also can appreciate that my dispassionate and hardheaded ideas from a "homo-economicus with a heart" point of view may be valuable in providing a more productive lens through which to look at the problems (certainly more productive than sterile victimology), even though that lens may need a lot of focusing, and hope that you won't be patronizing.

It's hard for people to know the realities of living on the rez unless you've really spent some time there. There are some things that just won't survive a move. The sense of community, for one (it's sadly missing every place else I've ever lived), and there's also a shared history, a love of holy ground (that can't ever be "replaced"), etc.

That's why I search for an answer that will leave people where they want to be.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

It's hard for people to know the realities of living on the rez unless you've really spent some time there. There are some things that just won't survive a move. The sense of community, for one (it's sadly missing every place else I've ever lived), and there's also a shared history, a love of holy ground (that can't ever be "replaced"), etc.

That's why I search for an answer that will leave people where they want to be.

I get that. Notwithstanding "Mayo, God help us," it's well known that after the first couple generations Irish Americans had a very sentimental attachment to the auld sod. (Watch the movie "The Quiet Man" sometime - it's a goodie.)

Naturally I'm just speculating, but in this instance it does seem very possible for people to maintain a link to the place in various ways without living there year. An obvious one is some big annual homecoming event - like Thanksgiving. It could be as much a celebration of the successes of those who have gone out into the world as a poignant "touching base" on "the auld sod."

How much better that than just wallowing in hopelessness generation after generation. As a said above, after a generation or three of wealth and human capital building, there might well be some returning.

 

[wazhazhe]

Let’s review, shall we? This is the statement I have a problem with.

In those places, as in Pine Ridge I assume, there is homelessness, but it is not due to an absense of government and private assistance programs. If it is not due to mental illness, then it is caused by profound social and personal dysfunction - destructive behavior by individuals.

Neither statement is true. The second sentence I find particularly insulting. I stated so and received the following response.

Be insulted, then, it's true.

So much for the civility you told me you were so proud of. You claim your statements are true, and follow that with …

I don't know about reservations* so I won't speak to that, but I do know about cities …

What? You say you won’t speak about American Indian reservations yet you did in the first quote, above. In the second quote you again speak of life on reservations and claim your first statement was true. Where did you get your information on American Indians? Where did you learn about life on the rez? I don’t appreciate disparaging remarks about American Indians. I would like to believe they were made out of ignorance and with no malicious intent. However, when you defend those remarks and follow with contradictory remarks, I don’t really know what to think.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Let’s review, shall we? This is the statement I have a problem with.



Neither statement is true. The second sentence I find particularly insulting. I stated so and received the following response.



So much for the civility you told me you were so proud of. You claim your statements are true, and follow that with …



What? You say you won’t speak about American Indian reservations yet you did in the first quote, above. In the second quote you again speak of life on reservations and claim your first statement was true. Where did you get your information on American Indians? Where did you learn about life on the rez? I don’t appreciate disparaging remarks about American Indians. I would like to believe they were made out of ignorance and with no malicious intent. However, when you defend those remarks and follow with contradictory remarks, I don’t really know what to think.

Hey Waz, with respect, let's not play games. I have no desire or intention to insult Indians or anyone else, and I don't think I did. Surely you're not saying that destructive behaviors - alcoholism in particular but a lot of other things too - are not a huge part of the problems on the rez. We can go around and around on whether they are more cause or effect, and probably to no useful purpose. But any honest and constructive view of the situation has to acknowledge that this is a major obstacle to any future progress, that unless it is effectively addressed there won't be any future progress no matter what else happens, and that no one really has a clue as to how to address it. For at least a couple generations people have been hoping for some kind of spiritual awakening, but it hasn't happened yet. It's probably necessary, but no one has a clue how to make that happen, either.

I know more about the inner cities, and there it's bit less a case of concentrated and distilled essence of misery and dysfunction, but in terms of individuals shooting themselves in the foot with destructive behavior, the problem is very similar. I have not made any simplistic statements along the lines of "just get a job," etc, but neither am I going to pretend that the problems in the inner city aren't predominantly social/personal. As Charles Murray said in the article I referenced above, "Destructive behavior is the hallmark of the underclass."

I am willing to listen and learn, but denying social realities, patronizing people like me, and pandering to the cult of victimology is never going to move anyone one inch forward.



Edited to add:

To you the same question I asked Cloudy earlier: Here's $25k per person on the rez. What do you think would happen if you just handed it out in checks - do you think that would produce a good outcome? I assume that you are honest and will say it would not. Now what does that tell you about the real nature of the problems there?

 

[Pure]

"Destructive behavior is the hallmark of the underclass."

P:Jeez, i always thought it was "Destructive behavior is the hallmark of the upper class."

Thinking of the 'wars of choice' in Iraq and Vietnam.

-----
RAHere's $25k per person on the rez. What do you think would happen if you just handed it out in checks - do you think that would produce a good outcome? I assume that you are honest and will say it would not. Now what does that tell you about the real nature of the problems there?

P: that you've got a bunch of dysfunctional indians?

 

[amicus]

My post #113 was not an attempt to salvage the subject of the thread, but rather to diffuse a growing conflict between Cloudy and her supporters and a few others, namely Roxanne.

I see my frivolous attempt failed.

The debate has devolved into a common place rich/poor class struggle issue, so commonly used by the 'usual suspects' to trumpet their sick contentions.

There have been thousands if not tens of thousands of conquered and overwhelmed cultures in the known history of the world.

For peoples who live by faith and belief in a particular culture and find it destroyed forever, there is a devastating effect that seems to be never ending.

I find that sad.

I was born a bastard and will always be a bastard. My dear departed mother hinted that my heritage was English, French, Irish and, of all things, Cherokee, a Redskin in the woodpile somewhere along the genetic history.

You might look at the avatar and note the facial structure, it could well be Native American and my skin, even in winter, is bronze and not caucasoid pale.

I feel no urge or pull or draw to call upon English, French or Irish ancestors to stake my claim in life and certainly not American Indian heritage.

I am an American and damned well proud of it. I feel more kinship with the ancient Greeks or even the Mesopotanians and Phoenicians than I do any of the other.

The longer I live, the more I am convinced, that it is a form a mental deficiency that afflicts those who cling to long dead cultures and religions; an inability to identify as an individual apart from and superior to the cultural roots.

Thus the entire debate about 'Reservation Indians' is an object lesson in futility, a dead issue of no import excepting those who still, 'believe' in the old ways.

It is very sad and many people and institutions spend a lifetime, which turns into generations, digging up the bones and abodes of the past to justify the present.

Respect for the dead, sacred ground, burial sites, historical sites, even for young America, are important and influential for many and perhaps society needs a portion of its' energies directed towards the past.

But as Roxanne tried to point out, one cannot and must not live in the past, one must maximize the present and plan for the future and accept and participate in the changes that come about; or we too, become, 'Reservation Americans'.


Now...just how much are you willing to risk if the Democrats really do, 'turn off the lights; the party's over?"

amicus...

 

[Pure]

has anyone ever been to a rodeo, where, as bull goes after a fallen rider, the clown comes running out...

 

[amicus]

A fitting role for you, Pure without a doubt, a clown to distract, surely your purpose in life. Glad you found an avocation.


amicus...

 

[Liar]

It’s not always about choice. Many people who suffer from mental illness are incapable of the rational thought required to make decisions that are in their own best interest.

And when you're down and out, it doesn't take much to bereft you of the rational will to climb out of it. Anything from textbook mental illness, to drug and alcohol abuse, to clinical depression, to social anxiety, can keep people from seeking out the aid they could in theory get.

Does said aid have any conditions? Stuff that I need to deal with instantly in order to get the help with food and shelter? I don' know how the situation is in the US, but it's often a catch 22 deal. In order to get help, you need to either start applyiong for jobs, or get a medical desicion that you're unfit for work. And both those things require the energy to do that those people don't have until they've gotten food and shelter.

 

[Liar]

P:Jeez, i always thought it was "Destructive behavior is the hallmark of the upper class."

Naah, I thinkk it's the hallmark for the human race. It's only more visible when the upper class do it, because they can afford to do it with bells and whistles.