Do you own your body?

[BabyBoomer50s]

34%.

Abortion should be regulated like every other medical treatment.

Do you acknowledge the reality that there is no such thing as elective abortion in the 7th 8th and 9th months?The only data I’ve seen on it is reference to something Guttmacher published some years ago. If I recall the figure for last trimester elective abortions was around 1% of all abortions. If that figure is reasonably accurate, it’s a tiny percentage but is still a number that constitutes thousands.

The only statistic I’ve seen on that is from something Guttmacher published over a decade ago. I believe their figure was around 1% of all abortions were elective in the last trimester. A dated figure and a tiny percentage, but a number that equates to thousands. It’s a scenario that is far outside the overwhelming majority of abortion procedures.

I agree with you that many who identify as pro life make a bigger issue of it than is warranted. It’s a distraction. I doubt any significant number of people on any side of the abortion debate support purely elective abortions for non-medical reasons at such a late stage of pregnancy. I also doubt there are a significant number of people who would oppose a late term abortion when the health or life of the mother is legitimately in danger. It should not be difficult to write crystal clear legislation regarding this corner case scenario that satisfies well over 90% of Americans.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

I think I've made my position quite clear. I don't define other peoples' labels for them. That the Republican party's job.


The overwhelming consensus amongst medical professionals is that fetal viability begins somewhere between 22 and 24 weeks. Determining the exact week of pregnancy is an inexact science. I chose the median of 23 weeks. But you know what? In the interest of brotherhood and fellowship, I'm willing to revise downward to 22 weeks.

And before you bring it up, i am aware of the single case in the history of abortion where a 21 week old fetus was brought to term. It cost millions of dollars in medical care, the child had significant brain damage and lungs that never quite developed. That's a "science fair project" to me, something done just to prove it could be done. It's not realistic in the real world.


I am aware that something like 85% of all abortions are done prior to 15 weeks. Let me put you on the spot and ask you the rationale behind a ban post 15 weeks? What is so magic about that arbitrary number?

I'm going to go out on a limb and attempt to answer my own question: I'm theorizing that the majority of Americans don't realize that fetal viability occurs at 23, ummm...22 weeks. I do. You might. But Joe Sixpack? I doubt it. Biological education in America is awful. You have people with post graduate degrees here running their mouth that human beings are made primarily of carbon. Go figure.


Loudness? Yes. Is it relevant to this discussion? Only to the extent where one loud faction attempts to force their beliefs on others, whether by force of law or clinic occupation.

Your turn.

My interpretation of what you’ve said is that if you had been surveyed in the Gallup poll, your answer would fall in the 51% who said “legal only under certain circumstances.” Am I right?

“Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances or illegal in all circumstances?”​

 

[adrina]

The only statistic I’ve seen on that is from something Guttmacher published over a decade ago. I believe their figure was around 1% of all abortions were elective in the last trimester. A dated figure and a tiny percentage, but a number that equates to thousands. It’s a scenario that is far outside the overwhelming majority of abortion procedures.

I agree with you that many who identify as pro life make a bigger issue of it than is warranted. It’s a distraction. I doubt any significant number of people on any side of the abortion debate support purely elective abortions for non-medical reasons at such a late stage of pregnancy. I also doubt there are a significant number of people who would oppose a late term abortion when the health or life of the mother is legitimately in danger. It should not be difficult to write crystal clear legislation regarding this corner case scenario that satisfies well over 90% of Americans.

No. What they found was that less than 1% of all abortions took place in the third trimester. Not elective. Your casualness with that word is causing real world harm to women.

Women whose lives are in danger are being denied abortions because of that assumption.

Do you recognize that there is not one single documented case of elective abortion in the 7th, 8th and 9th months of pregnancy? Yes or no.

 

[RobDownSouth]

My interpretation of what you’ve said is that if you had been surveyed in the Gallup poll, your answer would fall in the 51% who said “legal only under certain circumstances.” Am I right?

“Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances or illegal in all circumstances?”​

I like how Gallup has these neatly defined boxes. My answer would be unchanged: "legal under any circumstances to 22 weeks and legal under certain circumstances from 23 weeks to nine months"

I will let the pollster decide what boxes he/she wants to check off.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

No. What they found was that less than 1% of all abortions took place in the third trimester. Not elective. Your casualness with that word is causing real world harm to women.

Women whose lives are in danger are being denied abortions because of that assumption.

Do you recognize that there is not one single documented case of elective abortion in the 7th, 8th and 9th months of pregnancy? Yes or no.

Look, I’m n

No. What they found was that less than 1% of all abortions took place in the third trimester. Not elective. Your casualness with that word is causing real world harm to women.

Women whose lives are in danger are being denied abortions because of that assumption.

Do you recognize that there is not one single documented case of elective abortion in the 7th, 8th and 9th months of pregnancy? Yes or no.

I’m not arguing with you or trying to convince you of anything. I never claimed late term abortions are common. You asked me a question. I told you I haven’t seen data that answers it other than something I read a long time ago that was attributed to Guttmacher.

I dug it up for you. Here it is.

“A more recent Guttmacher study focused on abortion after 20 weeks of gestation and similarly concluded that women seeking late-term abortions were not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment. The study further concluded that late-term abortion seekers were younger and more likely to be unemployed than those seeking earlier abortions. It is estimated that about 1% of all abortions in the United States are performed after 20 weeks, or approximately 10 000 to 15 000 annually.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457018/

 

[RobDownSouth]

“A more recent Guttmacher study focused on abortion after 20 weeks of gestation and similarly concluded that women seeking late-term abortions were not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment. The study further concluded that late-term abortion seekers were younger and more likely to be unemployed than those seeking earlier abortions. It is estimated that about 1% of all abortions in the United States are performed after 20 weeks, or approximately 10 000 to 15 000 annually.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457018/

Yup. 1 percent after 20 weeks.

You're obsessed about the one percent so much that you want to make things as difficult as possible for the other 99 percent, and this is where we have a significant difference of opinion.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

Yup. 1 percent after 20 weeks.

You're obsessed about the one percent so much that you want to make things as difficult as possible for the other 99 percent, and this is where we have a significant difference of opinion.

Nope. Adrina raised the issue of late term abortions, not me.

 

[TastySuckToy]

CAN ANYONE FIND A SINGLE DOCUMENTED INSTANCE OF AN ELECTIVE ABORTION IN THE LATER STAGES (7th, 8th and especially the 9th month) OF PREGNANCY?

Pardon for raising my voice but the hysteria around this one non-issue is taking up a ton of oxygen in the reproductive rights debate.

So by your own logic, any ban on elective abortion 7th, 8th or 9th months into a pregnancy will affect no one, therefore a ban in that specific time frame is absolutely acceptable everywhere.

 

[ll74]

So by your own logic, any ban on elective abortion 7th, 8th or 9th months into a pregnancy will affect no one, therefore a ban in that specific time frame is absolutely acceptable everywhere.

That's not the logic she's using.

 

[TastySuckToy]

That's not the logic she's using.

Her position is that elective abortion at 7th, 8th and 9th months never happens. Ergo, if a ban were put into place specifically for elective abortions in that time frame, it negatively effects no one.

It would be like banning the capture and sale of fairies, or outlawing pet zombies. A non issue, the existence of the law would be useless, but it's existence hurts no one.

Aside from anyone who hates unnecessary paperwork and silly laws, but meh, whatever.

 

[ll74]

Her position is that elective abortion at 7th, 8th and 9th months never happens. Ergo, if a ban were put into place specifically for elective abortions in that time frame, it negatively effects no one.

No, that isn't her argument.

Her argument is that pro lifers are using late term abortion abuse as reasoning for their position and yet not a single one knows of any singular time it is happening (in the state of their residence,. specifically)

In other words, they aren't using logic in their argument and instead are making up shit.

If actual situations drove their support, they'd use those situations.

It would be like banning the capture and sale of fairies, or outlawing pet zombies. A non issue, the existence of the law would be useless, but it's existence hurts no one.

Aside from anyone who hates unnecessary paperwork and silly laws, but meh, whatever.

Again, if the position of elective late term abortions were the issue, then legislation would focus on elective late term abortions and not a ban on all abortions.

 

[TastySuckToy]

No, that isn't her argument.

Her argument is that pro lifers are using late term abortion abuse as reasoning for their position and yet not a single one knows of any singular time it is happening (in the state of their residence,. specifically)

In other words, they aren't using logic in their argument and instead are making up shit.

If actual situations drove their support, they'd use those situations.


Again, if the position of elective late term abortions were the issue, then legislation would focus on elective late term abortions and not a ban on all abortions.

So ban elective late term abortions in the 7th, 8th, 9th months of pregnancy. You automatically kill any anti abortion argument regarding that time table, and it has absolutely zero effect on pro abortion arguments.

It's a win win situation.

 

[ll74]

So ban elective late term abortions in the 7th, 8th, 9th months of pregnancy. You automatically kill any anti abortion aegument regarding that time table, and it has absolutely zero effect on pro abortion arguments.

It's a win win situation.

No legislation is being considered in any state to do that.

 

[TastySuckToy]

No legislation is being considered in any state to do that.

True, but the pro abortion side should push it. Throw the anti abortion side a bone that has absolutely zero negative effects on the pro abortion side.

It's like a salesman finally relenting and agreeing to sell the air in the house along with the house. A hilariously pointless sales point, but hey, if it shuts the customer up...

 

[ll74]

True, but the pro abortion side should push it. Throw the anti abortion side a bone that has absolutely zero negative effects on the pro abortion side.

They don't care about late term abortions...they only use them to evoke emotion. If they make up the narrative the opposition wants everyone to have elective late term abortions...it gives them more votes against rational legislation giving a woman a choice about her own healthcare.

 

[TastySuckToy]

They don't care about late term abortions...they only use them to evoke emotion. If they make up the narrative the opposition wants everyone to have elective late term abortions...it gives them more votes against rational legislation giving a woman a choice about her own healthcare.

All the more reason to implement such a ban. If the pro abortion side heavily advocates for banning elective abortions in the 7th, 8th and 9th months of pregnancy, which affects absolutely zero women, then go for it. That way you wipe out any argument on that basis in the future.

Take what wins you can, I say. If the anti abortion groups keep using this argument, take it away from them.

 

[Lazaran]

So weird how PRIVACY has ALREADY been completely removed from the equation.



JFC

SAD!!!

 

[adrina]

Look, I’m n

I’m not arguing with you or trying to convince you of anything. I never claimed late term abortions are common. You asked me a question. I told you I haven’t seen data that answers it other than something I read a long time ago that was attributed to Guttmacher.

I dug it up for you. Here it is.

“A more recent Guttmacher study focused on abortion after 20 weeks of gestation and similarly concluded that women seeking late-term abortions were not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment. The study further concluded that late-term abortion seekers were younger and more likely to be unemployed than those seeking earlier abortions. It is estimated that about 1% of all abortions in the United States are performed after 20 weeks, or approximately 10 000 to 15 000 annually.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457018/

The 20 week area is another issue altogether. However most of the elective abortions that now occur at 20-24 weeks are due to barriers to abortion care put into place by republican legislatures led by mostly conservative men.

Again, it's a simple question.

Can you acknowledge that elective abortions in the 7th, 8th and 9th months have never been documented as occurring? Is this a hard question? I had no problem answering your question.

You pestered everyone for the better part of two pages about where they stood in the gallup poll. Why are you so afraid to answer a simple question?

 

[adrina]

So by your own logic, any ban on elective abortion 7th, 8th or 9th months into a pregnancy will affect no one, therefore a ban in that specific time frame is absolutely acceptable everywhere.

There already are bans in place. Ones which were written by overly emotional conservative men. Who by writing crappy legislation aimed at stopping abortion end up stopping needed medical care and endanger women. Many of whom have permanent side effects from dealing with the barriers to the needed medical care.

If you want to be disingenuous, go piss up a rope. You're just another emotional conservative male discussing something you will never experience from a place of histrionics and fear.

 

[TastySuckToy]

There already are bans in place.

Great. If bans on elective abortions 7th, 8th and 9th months in are already in place, just cite those bans as having ended the argument already.

Would solve your issue of female hysterics demanding proof such things happen in the first place.

 

[adrina]

Great. If bans on elective abortions 7th, 8th and 9th months in are already in place, just cite those bans as having ended the argument already.

Would solve your issue of female hysterics demanding proof such things happen in the first place.

So you went with the disingenuous sexist prick route.

Good to know.

Yup, just another overly emotional conservative male with no real experience with it and instead substitutes real discussion with irrational and glib responses. The women who have ended up sterile, traumatized or otherwise physically/emotionally injured because of these poorly written laws can take comfort in your dismissal of them I'm sure.

 

[Bn2f]

Just a side note:
just yesterday this person basically claimed the issue was private and he did not to have a care in the matter and does not ask women about private health issues but also was pro-choice though it bothered him that most of the violence came from pro-choice advocates. The more you know.
Ok. Carry on folks.

 

[TastySuckToy]

So you went with the disingenuous sexist prick route.

It's what you wanted. That's why you started it with the whole "emotional conservative male" insults. If you insist on being a sexist prick, least I can try to do is match you.

Or do you need to clutch some pearls and demand a fainting couch because you get replied to in the same manner you reply to others?

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Look, I’m n

I’m not arguing with you or trying to convince you of anything. I never claimed late term abortions are common. You asked me a question. I told you I haven’t seen data that answers it other than something I read a long time ago that was attributed to Guttmacher.

I dug it up for you. Here it is.

“A more recent Guttmacher study focused on abortion after 20 weeks of gestation and similarly concluded that women seeking late-term abortions were not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment. The study further concluded that late-term abortion seekers were younger and more likely to be unemployed than those seeking earlier abortions. It is estimated that about 1% of all abortions in the United States are performed after 20 weeks, or approximately 10 000 to 15 000 annually.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457018/

https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/2013/11/who-seeks-abortions-or-after-20-weeks

Here I dug up the Guttmacher article, strange you didn't.

METHODS: As part of a larger study, 272 women who received an abortion at or after 20 weeks’ gestation and 169 who received first-trimester abortions at 16 facilities across the country in 2008–2010 were interviewed one week after the procedure. Mixed effect logistic regression analyses were used to determine the characteristics associated with later abortion (i.e., at 20 weeks or later). Causes of delay in obtaining abortion were assessed in open- and closed-ended questions; profiles of women who received later abortions were identified through factor analysis.

Results: Women aged 20–24 were more likely than those aged 25–34 to have a later abortion (odds ratio, 2.7), and women who discovered their pregnancy before eight weeks’ gestation were less likely than others to do so (0.1). Later abortion recipients experienced logistical delays (e.g., difficulty finding a provider and raising funds for the procedure and travel costs), which compounded other delays in receiving care. Most women seeking later abortion fit at least one of five profiles: They were raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous.

CONCLUSION: Bans on abortion after 20 weeks will disproportionately affect young women and women with limited financial resources.

This doesn't say what you think it does Boomer....*chuckles*

 

[adrina]

It's what you wanted. That's why you started it with the whole "emotional conservative male" insults. If you insist on being a sexist prick, least I can try to do is match you.

Or do you need to clutch some pearls and demand a fainting couch because you get replied to in the same manner you reply to others?

So much for personal responsibility.

Overly emotional conservative male says what.