Do 18-24 year olds have sex any more

[MelissaBaby]

My personal experience, which counts as nothing other than personal experience, is that most women DO like "nice guys," but it also helps as a guy to have something that gives you an edge-good looks, intelligence, ambition, assertiveness, and/or a sense of humor, especially.

When i re-entered the dating world in my 40s after divorce, my impression was that most women were desperate to meet decent men with good manners, because so many men were jerks. I heard plenty of horror stories from women about other men they had met online.

Most of us are complicated. We want many thing, and they don't always cohere. But I've never found being nice, per se, to be a disadvantage.

One thing that has not been touched on in this discussion is that what men see as niceness can sometimes read to women as white-knighting or being too controlling. Most women have probably, at least once, had a man says, with sincerity, "But, I thought I was being nice."

No, always being the one to drive is not being nice.

Taking me to an exotic restaurant and insisting on ordering for me because I am unfamiliar with the food is not being nice.

Suggesting my clothing to me is not being nice.

Buying me an expensive gift on the second date is not being nice.

Praising me by critiquing other women is not being nice.

Treating me like I am helpless and need your constant assistance is not being nice.

Mansplaining is not being nice.

None of those things are meant to be not nice, nor are they evidence that the man in question is not a nice guy. But that sort of thing can certainly make establishing a relationship more difficult.

 

[MelissaBaby]

There is probably some truth here. I don't see myself as controlling but when I'm working and I arrive at a door the sane tike as a female colleague I open the door for her. Most women just smile and continue but one much younger than I, it drives her nuts.

I really don't think many women get upset over men opening the door for them. But, respectfully, think of it from her perspective. You are senior to her at work, (perhaps hold a higher position), what to you my seem entirely a courtesy, may make her feel like you're signaling that she's just a helpless lamb, and you're a sheepdog.

 

[MaturemanAJ]

Misogyny comes in many forms...
You are the total embodiment of it...
No... Means no... End of

One thing that has not been touched on in this discussion is that what men see as niceness can sometimes read to women as white-knighting or being too controlling. Most women have probably, at least once, had a man says, with sincerity, "But, I thought I was being nice."

No, always being the one to drive is not being nice.

Taking me to an exotic restaurant and insisting on ordering for me because I am unfamiliar with the food is not being nice.

Suggesting my clothing to me is not being nice.

Buying me an expensive gift on the second date is not being nice.

Praising me by critiquing other women is not being nice.

Treating me like I am helpless and need your constant assistance is not being nice.

Mansplaining is not being nice.

None of those things are meant to be not nice, nor are they evidence that the man in question is not a nice guy. But that sort of thing can certainly make establishing a relationship more difficult.

And now the generational thing comes into play. Not sure of your age but will give you an example. Wife and I are going into a dinner club, it's old fashioned but it's why it's popular and I was holding the door for my wife. A woman is walking out and I held the door for her also and she turns and said to my wife hang onto him those guys are all gone.

Fast forward to opening the car door for my wife and my millennial daughter in law asks my son why don't you do that for me?
Why ? because men now have no clue which type of woman they are going to get the gracious one or the flying bitch which has happened to me " I can open my own goddam door."
There was just an article in the news questioning what has happened to the real men?

Answer women is what happened to real men. Day to day society has a new law of the land how guys are supposed to be. Guys do yourself a favor. Do you and if a woman doesn't like it she wasn't for you or worth your time.

If she wants to be treated like crap instead of a princess don't treat her like crap just walk away.
Now I know lots of women that will never remarry and I wouldn't marry again myself because who needs to find out after that they married Dr Jekyll or Mr Hyde or Mrs of the same scenario.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Misogyny comes in many forms...
You are the total embodiment of it...
No... Means no... End of story...

Cagivagurl

I've had women, after they've said "no" or "not tonight" or "I'm not in the mood" or any variation thereof, ask me "Why are stopping?" or "Why are you giving up so easily?" or something similar when I took them at their word.

I know this, it's better to call it a night than to wonder if she's being playful. If a guy wants to be safe, "No" always means "No" no matter what the woman actually wants you to do.

 

[Levorotatory]

Misogyny comes in many forms...
You are the total embodiment of it...
No... Means no... End of story...

Cagivagurl

The real misogyny is the slut shaming culture that led to the stupid "no means I need more convincing", playing hard to get game. Perhaps young adults having less sex is at least partially a result of society doing a better job of convincing men that no means no than in convincing women that it is okay to immediately and enthusiastically say yes to sex if you want sex.

 

[MaturemanAJ]

I've had women, after they've said "no" or "not tonight" or "I'm not in the mood" or any variation thereof, ask me "Why are stopping?" or "Why are you giving up so easily?" or something similar when I took them at their word.

I know this, it's better to call it a night than to wonder if she's being playful. If a guy wants to be safe, "No" always means "No" no matter what the woman actually wants you to do.

Ah so lesson is never take anything a woman says for fact but when she says no just don't bother talking to her again because you will never know if anything she says is truthful

 

[MrHereWriting]

Ah so lesson is never take anything a woman says for fact but when she says no just don't bother talking to her again because you will never know if anything she says is truthful

As I've gotten older, and as the world has changed, I've learned that you shouldn't try to fuck every pretty face and nice body.

Fine someone like you and there's typically no misunderstandings (that can't be forgiven should one happen).

 

[TheLobster]

If a guy wants to be safe, "No" always means "No" no matter what the woman actually wants you to do.

Indeed.

And now take this approach, scale it up to every man and iterate over the generations. What do you get? A dwindling population, perhaps, which is exactly what we currently see in the West?

(To be clear, this is not a question to you specifically; I'm merely trying to clarify my point that was widely misinterpreted that somehow being "pro-rape" because @MelissaBaby asked me to).

 

[MaturemanAJ]

Indeed.

And now take this approach, scale it up to every man and iterate over the generations. What do you get? A dwindling population, perhaps, which is exactly what we currently see in the West?

Yup, or you can live in China which girls were not what they wanted and now they have something like 21 million single men that can't find a female partner.

 

[Cagivagurl]

And now the generational thing comes into play. Not sure of your age but will give you an example. Wife and I are going into a dinner club, it's old fashioned but it's why it's popular and I was holding the door for my wife. A woman is walking out and I held the door for her also and she turns and said to my wife hang onto him those guys are all gone.

Fast forward to opening the car door for my wife and my millennial daughter in law asks my son why don't you do that for me?
Why ? because men now have no clue which type of woman they are going to get the gracious one or the flying bitch which has happened to me " I can open my own goddam door."
There was just an article in the news questioning what has happened to the real men?

Answer women is what happened to real men. Day to day society has a new law of the land how guys are supposed to be. Guys do yourself a favor. Do you and if a woman doesn't like it she wasn't for you or worth your time.

If she wants to be treated like crap instead of a princess don't treat her like crap just walk away.
Now I know lots of women that will never remarry and I wouldn't marry again myself because who needs to find out after that they married Dr Jekyll or Mr Hyde or Mrs of the same scenario.

Walking away would be a gift...
it is your controlling nature...
You want to be seen as "The man."
It is not chivalrous, it is a statement... Look at me, master of my domain.
IMO
Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

The real misogyny is the slut shaming culture that led to the stupid "no means I need more convincing", playing hard to get game. Perhaps young adults having less sex is at least partially a result of society doing a better job of convincing men that no means no than in convincing women that it is okay to immediately and enthusiastically say yes to sex if you want sex.

Some people, regardless of gender like sex... Are happy to dive in...
No problem so long as it's consensual...
Others want to be able to say no, and not have the issue pushed on them...

 

[Cagivagurl]

I've had women, after they've said "no" or "not tonight" or "I'm not in the mood" or any variation thereof, ask me "Why are stopping?" or "Why are you giving up so easily?" or something similar when I took them at their word.

I know this, it's better to call it a night than to wonder if she's being playful. If a guy wants to be safe, "No" always means "No" no matter what the woman actually wants you to do.

People play games....
If somebody says, "No, not tonight." I probably means you are in a relationship, and understand the limits and signals...
If they said no forcefully, then you would hopefully acquiesce.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Yup, or you can live in China which girls were not what they wanted and now they have something like 21 million single men that can't find a female partner.

And now those poor men have to go through life alone and lonely. That's sad.

Oh, and the girls? Yeah, they were aborted or killed.

But still, those poor men...

 

[MrHereWriting]

People play games....
If somebody says, "No, not tonight." I probably means you are in a relationship, and understand the limits and signals...

These were said in the "see where this may lead" stage, dating, flirting, getting to know each other.

If they said no forcefully, then you would hopefully acquiesce.

What a stupid thing to say based on my comment. It's as though you didn't even read it or chose to deliberately misinterpret it.

Here's a refresher for you:

I've had women, after they've said "no" or "not tonight" or "I'm not in the mood" or any variation thereof, ask me "Why are stopping?" or "Why are you giving up so easily?" or something similar when I took them at their word.

I know this, it's better to call it a night than to wonder if she's being playful. If a guy wants to be safe, "No" always means "No" no matter what the woman actually wants you to do.

 

[MaturemanAJ]

And now those poor men have to go through life alone and lonely. That's sad.

Oh, and the girls? Yeah, they were aborted or killed.

But still, those poor men...

I agree with you on the girls don't get me wrong.

 

[MaturemanAJ]

Walking away would be a gift...
it is your controlling nature...
You want to be seen as "The man."
It is not chivalrous, it is a statement... Look at me, master of my domain.
IMO
Cagivagurl

I will go with how I was raised by my family including Mother and four older sisters. They know the facts and the truth not some internet know it all that has a hardon tucked in her boxers

 

[MelissaBaby]

I agree with you on the girls don't get me wrong.

I appreciate that, and from 1darknightowl as well. I think what I, and others, are asking for is some perspective.

I am very concerned with compassion, and empathy. I've said, many times, that that is the basic theme of all my writing.

I hope you can recognize that, from a woman's point of view, we can sympathize with those lonely men, but we want the tremendous injustice that was done to women in creating the situation recognized.

Similarly, I think most women would hope that, when men complain about the complications they feel from the emphasis on consent, they would acknowledge that that concern did not arise out of nowhere-it wasn't invented by Marxist college professors or feminist activists- it exists because for most of human history, female consent has been disregarded more often than respected. Even today, in supposedly more enlightened times, nearly every woman has experienced a denial of her right to consent.

Can we just get some understanding to penetrate past hurt feelings?

 

[NuclearFairy]

There is probably some truth here. I don't see myself as controlling but when I'm working and I arrive at a door the sane tike as a female colleague I open the door for her. Most women just smile and continue but one much younger than I, it drives her nuts.

But I thought if two people arrived at the door at the same time, then the nearer one was supposed to hold the door open for the other regardless of gender. Same for if you arrive at the door first and there's some one (on either side of the door) who is almost to the door, you hold it open for them.

Although now that I think about it, I do get far more startled looks over holding the door open than my SO does, and yeah he holds it open for either gender as well. But still, you don't just hold the door open for women.

 

[THBGato]

A dwindling population, perhaps, which is exactly what we currently see in the West?

And you don't think birth control had anything to do with that?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I hope you can recognize that, from a woman's point of view, we can sympathize with those lonely men, but we want the tremendous injustice that was done to women in creating the situation recognized.

I don't think anything, ever, can hope to correct the millennia of injustice and oppression that women suffered at the hands of men. There is nothing that can set that right in my view. As a man, even though I am certain that I've personally never, ever, mistreated a woman, I still feel the burden of guilt that comes from simply belonging to the male sex.

What we've had for a long time now is a transitional period that will, I suspect, last indefinitely. A period where we have traditional values clashing against modern views, where some new biases are being created and lines drawn.
Some injustices are being corrected, but some new problems are being created too. One such problem is this omnipresent labeling and cancelling. If you don't agree with everything we say, you are automatically the enemy. It's all over the social networks. I just hope we can keep those kinds of by-products of these new dynamics away from this place at least.

For example, I find that we agree on a good deal of points, and differ on the rest. And we were able to communicate those points without insults and name-calling.

This place has always been mostly civil, and only by acting when someone keeps stepping over the line can we hope to not let it become the cesspool that most social networks are. As someone who has consistently expressed her opinion, agreement, and disagreement in a calm and civil way, I am sure you understand what I mean.

 

[PennyThompson]

And now take this approach, scale it up to every man and iterate over the generations. What do you get? A dwindling population, perhaps, which is exactly what we currently see in the West?

God forbid guys change their behavior in any way whatsoever over the course of decades and centuries as our understanding of power and mutual respect evolve

Won't anyone please think of The West??

 

[filthytrancendence]

female consent has been disregarded more often than respected.

This is 100% true. It's my experience that this is a gendered phenomenon only to the extent that it looks different from each side of that line. Male consent is also disregarded in this culture, it just looks different. None of that is to minimize or detract from the harm it has done to women. Despite what I've been through, I still strongly believe that women have the worse side of the line.

Men's sexual assault is rarely talked about because admitting you've been SA'd is the ultimate admission of failure in your performance of masculinity. That often looks like pretending that you wanted it and acting like you liked it to turn a deep violation into a boisterous brag. Or else pretending like it didn't happen. Or else justifying it and gaslighting yourself to try and escape the violation.

That's why I keep talking about it. I wish I'd seen a man have the courage to say "I've been sexually assaulted" earlier in my life. I understand why I never did, because you tend to get treated like shit, and its a recipe for a mental health implosion if you're not really on top of your shit. And that's not a reasonable thing to expect from people.

I'm a man. I've been sexually assaulted.

Kids these days aren't having kids because the fucking planet is dying and they can barely support themselves, let alone a child. Not because they mostly figured out that raping each other is bad, actually. And it's infuriating to listen to the generation that doesn't seem to understand that lecture us about how we should be living. We didn't do this. We just have to live with it. The least you can do if you don't understand that is refrain from turning it into rape apologia.

 

[JerseyJugHandler]

That problem is only a concern for white males -- it is usually wrong for anyone else anyway. Too many tech bros deny humanity to anyone else.

What is more to be valued—a decent assurance of anonymity, or some abstract 'humanity' in being machine-recognisable? Just to be like white males?

 

[sanfran81]

I really don't think many women get upset over men opening the door for them. But, respectfully, think of it from her perspective. You are senior to her at work, (perhaps hold a higher position), what to you my seem entirely a courtesy, may make her feel like you're signaling that she's just a helpless lamb, and you're a sheepdog.

well, so i have held the door open and/or opened it for women outside the workplace.
in other words, a total stranger.
for example, just walking towards the entrance of a store or something, i will hold the door open etc.

i am not thinking of any power dynamic there.
don't know what she does for a living and she has no idea what i do for a living.
just courtesy, being nice kind of a thing.

i have not gone to a space of mind in that moment to say ...she must think that i think of her as a 'helpless lamb' and i am her 'shepherd', so let me not hold this door open for her, let her do it herself.

nah, that does not cross my mind in that moment, honestly.
i just open the door to be courteous basically.
not much to it.

++++++++

If we talk about work-place, i also don't think that way.

for example if someone i was reporting to, was trying to get into the building and I held the door for them, should i be thinking that they would think "oh this guy is opening the door for me and he must think i am not a capable enough to do that myself and he must think i am an incompetent boss".

nah, that too has not crossed my mind.
i just simply do it out of courtesy really.

whether it's a total stranger at work.
someone i report to.
someone who has the same title as me.
someone who reports to me etc.

+++++++

now there Are other acts where definitely it can make the other person feel a certain way.
and one must be mindful of those situations and moments.

holding the door open, i personally just see it as a simple nice gesture.

 

[iwatchus]

What is more to be valued—a decent assurance of anonymity, or some abstract 'humanity' in being machine-recognisable? Just to be like white males?

The poor recognition is a double edge sword There have been many incidents of mis-recognition that have had bad consequences ranging up to tragic.