Do 18-24 year olds have sex any more

[TheRedChamber]

There are a huge number of things that could be happening. I find that he is too "nice" to be an extremely unlikely one.

The world is not just divided into nice guys and arseholes. As I said earlier, every individual is different.

Maybe he is afraid of women, so uncomfortable around them, that finding a female friend is hard.
Maybe he has bad personal hygiene. The vast majority of guys realize they need regular showers by their early twenties, at the latest. But I have known men in their forties who did not understand they smelled so bad it was uncomfortable to be around them.

Maybe he is just unbelievably boring. I have known people, both male and female, who I would describe this way. Very few of them have had much sexual experience.

Maybe he is only interested in women who are interested in something he is not. I have known both men and women who have struggled with their relationship life because they are only interested in people who would never be interested in them.

There are a plethora of other reasons that I would expect way before accepting that all available women reject him because he is nice. Which was the claim made earlier in this thread. That is what got my hackles up.

It is a sad reality that humans who are interested in the sexual experience are denied that. Our sexuality is such an important part of us. take a step back and surely it seems far easier to believe that the problem lies somewhere in their own individual makeup, than the entire gender of their desire rejects them for what is ostensibly a positive attribute. Rejecting them because they smell bad sure, because they are mysogynstic pigs, of course. But because they are nice. I am just not buying it. No large group of people is that homogeneous.

Just like I would not accept that all men will reject a woman because she sleeps around. Or because she doesn't.n There is always more than that. And I strongly believe that anyone trying to write their own failures off to a simple cliche like that is just making excuses, maybe to themselves even.

Thank you. Funnily enough, you might have quoted the wrong bit of my post and so it looks like you are suggesting Keanu Reaves needs to shower more and might be incredibly boring. But I appreciate the sentiment.

Without going into details about my friend, yes, it's a lot of the above, but the critical thing is none of them are particularly obvious moral failings. So starting with the advice "Don't be an arsehole." isn't particularly helpful. In fact, while as a general rule of life it's good, in this case it's counter-productive because the guy isn't that much of an arsehole and alerting him to this is probably only going to police himself to make sure no action he takes is even slightly 'arseholish' and is going to end up doing nothing particularly much, which is his natural inclination anyway.

It's not a question of 'too nice.' If a woman isn't into a guy then she isn't into that guy. Full stop. But if a hundred women aren't into a guy, that doesn't suddenly and automatically make him an arsehole.

In other words, loneliness is not a moral failing.

 

[FrancesScott]

Seems like guys who have struggled with women and are complaining about it on this thread are also unwilling to listen to or acknowledge women’s perspectives. Instead they confidently assert what women want, what they don’t want, how they behave, and why. They know it all, what could a mere woman possibly contribute to such a discussion? It’s best to either dismiss them, or refute their puny emotion-ridden points with infallible, dispassionate male logic.

I’m now wondering whether this is causation or simply coincidental correlation. Further study is needed.

<< I have spoken >>

 

[TheRedChamber]

Seems like guys who have struggled with women and are complaining about it on this thread are also unwilling to listen to or acknowledge women’s perspectives. Instead they confidently assert what women want, what they don’t want, how they behave, and why. They know it all, what could a mere woman possibly contribute to such a discussion? It’s best to either dismiss them, or refute their puny emotion-ridden points with infallible, dispassionate male logic.

I’m now wondering whether this is causation or simply coincidental correlation. Further study is needed.

<< I have spoken >>

I suspect this is insulting to a lot of women who are actually able to hold their own in a proper discussion on a controversial topic, but that's just my perspective, and since you've spoken we need go no further.

I will reflect more on if I truly am an arsehole.

Is it too much to hope you might do the same?

 

[FrancesScott]

I suspect this is insulting to a lot of women who are actually able to hold their own in a proper discussion on a controversial topic

Oh look, the expert on women opining yet again. You can’t help yourself can you?

 

[TheRedChamber]

Oh look, the expert on women opining yet again. You can’t help yourself can you?

Okay. Please explain to me what you think the relationship between women and logic should be. I'm all ears.

 

[FrancesScott]

He struck out until he became more interesting and more mature, and then suddenly, inexplicably, the women who just happened to be in his age range liked him

View attachment 2551109

I wanted to say the nerd in me just loved this illustration. Then women can’t understand statistics, so it must just have been the prurty red dots.

 

[FrancesScott]

Okay. Please explain to me what you think the relationship between women and logic should be. I'm all ears.

I’m not upsetting you am I? You seem almost female in your level of emotion.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I’m not upsetting you am I? You seem almost female in your level of emotion.

I'm waiting.

 

[filthytrancendence]

I will reflect more on if I truly am an arsehole.

Is it too much to hope you might do the same?

So look. Far be it from me to interrupt this delicious drama.

But as a man who once upon a time got into it with Francis under similar circumstances, just take a step back for a while.

I don't think you are an asshole, but you've acted like one in this thread. It's okay. It happens. But you keep digging yourself deeper and your self-assurance looks silly. She's fucking with you, and you deserve it.

Your 'original sin' in this thread was making the assumption that the women present were suggesting that any man who could not find a sex partner is a morally deficient asshole. That's not what anybody said. They said that men who say shit like "I'm too nice to get a girl" are pretty much universally lacking the self-awareness to even realize how dumb that sounds.

I haven't seen you actually make any kind of argument against that. Because there isn't one. You're arguing with a position nobody here holds and making sweeping generalizations about it to boot.

So again, take a step back.

Or don't.

 

[THBGato]

Not true at all until a woman reaches a certain age, which is like 35-40. Girls and younger women still mostly prefer bad boys. It's only when they start thinking about settling that they start noticing nice guys.
To be fair, men are just as bad, but in a different way.

I don't think that's true at all. I think that those are the women we notice because they are visible. They are out partying, in the pub, in the bar, topless on the beach, making noise, bragging about their sexual conquests. They are also well represented in various media formats.

But I don't think they are the majority. I think we don't SEE the majority because they aren't out and about. They spend most evenings curled up on the sofa with their boyfriend Ian, drinking Pinot Grigio, watching travelogues and arguing with Ian about whether they can go to Bali or whether they should be saving for a deposit on their first house.

You're giving evidence from your life, sure, but think about the girls you are thinking of when you make this argument. Are they actually the majority? I'm genuinely interested.

If I think of all the girls in my class, the majority of whom I'm still in touch with (it was small - 42 people), only two were into bad boys... and in both cases they've been married to their bad boys for 20+ years and have three kids with them. Everyone else - apart from the ones who are now out of the closet and married to women - have gone for gentle IT administrators or vets, whom they mostly married in their early 20s.

Maybe it's a cultural or class or generational thing - I'm a millennial Brit, middle class, University educated - so perhaps that's why I'm struggling to think of women I know that were attracted to bad guys (or bad girls, for that matter). Maybe the culture is different elsewhere and for different generations.

However, I really do believe it's a myth that most girls like bad boys, but because those that do are so visible and attract so much attention, people believe it is more prevalent than it is.

 

[filthytrancendence]

However, I really do believe it's a myth that girls like bad boys, but because those that do are so visible and attract so much attention, people believe it is more prevalent than it is.

All seem like excellent points to me.

And one thing I didn't see anybody point out yet in this thread is that the flip side--bragadocious men of the asshole-ish variety that seem to get a lot of action...

My experience with this kind of man as a man is that they're mostly just insecure liars. Not that it's impossible for an asshole to get a lot of action. Just that there's a strong coloration between being a bradocious asshole and... you know. Lying. And it's real easy to lie about lots of sex with conveniently unnamed partners. And there's a huge social incentive to do so.

So using them as anything at all in this kind of discussion just seems ill-conceived to me.

 

[TheRedChamber]

So look. Far be it from me to interrupt this delicious drama...

Thanks for the well-meaning intervention.

I could go on, but what I think I'll say simply is that if women (as a whole) actually wanted what they (as individuals) say they want then guy A would have way more success than guy B. And as that's not the case, I feel it's generally okay to doubt some of the generalizations.

Or to put it another way, I was never actually able to put any advice given by a woman to good use in dating other women. Maybe that's my fault and maybe it's theirs.

(That's not to be confused with advice from my wife about what she actually wants right this moment, which is usually invaluable...)

 

[Kumquatqueen]

That's not the claim though.
.
...The claim is that if a man cannot find a woman to sleep with him, he must not be 'nice' - and 'nice' in a moral way, not 'nice' in a phoar way.

No. My assertion was that there is no man too ugly or otherwise undesirable for a woman to sleep with, and those who claim that's why they can't get a partner actually have a personality failing.

Obviously there are also men who can't find partners because they hide away at home, or don't know any women, or never speak to any women except to try a pick-up artist approach, etc.

Now, if a guy can fake thinking of a woman as a person rather than a vaginal target on legs, he'll probably do well and with a little confidence possibly score more than less confident chaps who actually respect women as people - at least until his reputation gets around.

 

[TheRedChamber]

No. My assertion was that there is no man too ugly or otherwise undesirable for a woman to sleep with, and those who claim that's why they can't get a partner actually have a personality failing.

Obviously there are also men who can't find partners because they hide away at home, or don't know any women, or never speak to any women except to try a pick-up artist approach, etc.

Now, if a guy can fake thinking of a woman as a person rather than a vaginal target on legs, he'll probably do well and with a little confidence possibly score more than less confident chaps who actually respect women as people - at least until his reputation gets around.

Fair enough. The part I'd push back at is that having a (perceived) personality flaw such as being shy or boring doesn't necessarily make you an arsehole or twat. And while you can try to correct that, if you stop trying to 'be yourself' you sometimes overshoot. After graduating, the first job interview I did I was told that by the recruiter that I lacked confidence. The second one I was told I came across as arrogant and not appearing to want the job (Arrogant? Me? Never!)

Yeah, the thing about being 'nice' in dating is that even the arseholes are trying to be 'nice' at least at the start so it doesn't put you ahead the way some guys think it should.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I don't think you are an asshole, but you've acted like one in this thread. It's okay.

No, he didn't. He voiced his opinion without insulting anyone, while some of the other participants have been blatantly name-calling, insulting, and mocking people here, and no one reacted to that. This is Twitter now, clearly.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Do 18-24 year olds have sex any more?

Well, they're not having sex with me. I hope that helps.

 

[TheLobster]

I’m so glad that y’all have thoroughly identified the underlying issue, that affects an entire generation, by blaming it solely and exclusively on one gender. Good job, everyone.

Indeed, this is such a stunning success that I don’t even mind too much that along the way you had to collectively decide that I am apparently “pro-rape”. What’s a little presumption of malicious intent when we’re solving the world’s important problems, am I right?

 

[MrHereWriting]

If past generation had been as squeamish about consent as it is culturally sanctioned right now, humanity would've gone extinct long ago.

I took this to mean the fear of what constitutes consent nowadays and how easily a 'yes' can become a 'no' the morning after or years down the line.

It's the old "Better safe than sorry" approach to keeping a one night stand from becoming a lifelong nightmare.

 

[MaturemanAJ]

The Boomers are telling them that sex is evil and they should wait until marriage.

The Millennials are telling them that finding other people sexually attractive may be problematic, and that they should worry about consent every step of the way.

Their own generation is telling them that if they misstep at any point, they run the risk of getting their faces plastered all over TikTok and labeled accordingly.

It's a small wonder that anything gets hard or wet in such an environment, really.

Where the heck do you come up with " "boomers telling them sex is evil" ?
That would be more like boomers parents that obviously had tons of sex because they created the boomer generation.

KQ is right kids can't do fun stuff like we used to do like sex at drive in movies, in a field, in the car in a dark parking lot.
The world has eyes everywhere and the world is a much more dangerous place.

I had boys and some will say that's different but when they were going out with women they were told two things.
Wear a raincoat when it's going to be wet out, ie bring condoms.

And you know what? And they would respond yeah I know what was our code if the date was there that I loved them.

They also were never told they couldn't have sex at home.

Of course dating boomers I remember one being told as we left to keep her pants on by her parents. Well needless to say that just drove her into nymphomanic status wanting to park on the frozen lake in front of their house and fuck all night.

There are lots of factors that absolutely suck but it's not generational.

The internet will be the largest factor in destroying society because the things people say to each online would have been a punch in the face worthy comment before the internet.

I work obviously with people much younger than myself and yup some are odd ducks just like our generation had odd ducks too. Most are quality young people that work hard of varying nationalities.
My point? Don't label people because you will never even make it to 25% accurate.

 

[iwatchus]

Thank you. Funnily enough, you might have quoted the wrong bit of my post and so it looks like you are suggesting Keanu Reaves needs to shower more and might be incredibly boring. But I appreciate the sentiment.

Without going into details about my friend, yes, it's a lot of the above, but the critical thing is none of them are particularly obvious moral failings. So starting with the advice "Don't be an arsehole." isn't particularly helpful. In fact, while as a general rule of life it's good, in this case it's counter-productive because the guy isn't that much of an arsehole and alerting him to this is probably only going to police himself to make sure no action he takes is even slightly 'arseholish' and is going to end up doing nothing particularly much, which is his natural inclination anyway.

It's not a question of 'too nice.' If a woman isn't into a guy then she isn't into that guy. Full stop. But if a hundred women aren't into a guy, that doesn't suddenly and automatically make him an arsehole.

In other words, loneliness is not a moral failing.

I hope none of us (or at least few of us) see a man's loneliness as always caused by a moral failing on their part. You are right that too many probably assume that is the cause without more knowledge.

But it should also not be seen as a moral failing on the entire female gender's part, which is the underlying meaning of the "women won't sleep with me because I am too nice" statement that is heard all too often. That path leads to darkness and despair for everyone.

 

[MaturemanAJ]

That sounds a little pro-rape, bub.

Obviously most everyone here has no idea who they are talking to so pro rape seems over the top.
I think possibly what he was trying to say was is No was No until they got worked up enough to say yes.
To me No I am not interested is NO!
Not No but it's still ok to touch me, make out, finger my pussy and suck on my nipples cause that's hot and then ok let's do it, is not non consensual or rape.

Just like everything in life decisions take time. "Paradise by the dashboard lights " I hope is what he was saying.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I hope none of us (or at least few of us) see a man's loneliness as always caused by a moral failing on their part. You are right that too many probably assume that is the cause without more knowledge.

But it should also not be seen as a moral failing on the entire female gender's part, which is the underlying meaning of the "women won't sleep with me because I am too nice" statement that is heard all too often. That path leads to darkness and despair for everyone.

The thing is that it doesn't have to be anyone's fault. Sometimes people here 'it's not men's fault' as being 'it is women's fault'. It can be a combination of things. If Bob asks Alice out and Alice says no, it's not Alice's fault she doesn't have feelings for Bob, but nor is it Bob's fault for shooting his shot. I do think the exact combinations of words is important - are men really saying 'Women won't sleep with me because I'm too nice?' Or are they saying 'She say she wanted a nice guy, I am a nice guy, she doesn't want me (and she's now dating that arsehole). What gives?'

But looking back, most people date 'some stinkers' before they find the right one. If they are able to date at all, as per the original topic of this thread.

I'll give you the example of my sister. Years ago, she had interest from two of the guys she was working a part-time with.
The first guy shot his shot and got the 'You're a nice guy, but there's no spark' speech. He replies 'Okay, I'm going to try not to make this weird, but I do genuinely like you, so if you change your mind.'
She slept with guy two. Who promptly absconded with money from the business which she had responsiblity over.
And so now, in the fall out to all of this, guy one is able to demonstrate some pretty solid 'niceness' through all the trouble and, wouldn't you know it, 'niceness' is high up on my sister's list of requirements for a suitor all of a sudden.
Twenty-five years later, they're married and have just about finished raising two kids together.
And the weird thing is my sister still occassionally drops a line about 'having given him a chance' or 'having settled' and everytime I'm tell her 'What the fuck are you talking about' because the guy in question is warm, funny, caring, great with kids and (because this is apparently important) well over six feet tall.
Of course I don't live with them 24/7 so I don't see everything...

Again, it's not really a question of 'fault' exactly and I don't think she was consciously or even unconsciously going for the arsehole, but, pretty objectively she chosen 'wrongly' on that occassion and nearly missed her actual soulmate as a result.

Never met the arsehole though...

 

[iwatchus]

I'll give you the example of my sister. Years ago, she had interest from two of the guys she was working a part-time with.
The first guy shot his shot and got the 'You're a nice guy, but there's no spark' speech. He replies 'Okay, I'm going to try not to make this weird, but I do genuinely like you, so if you change your mind.'
She slept with guy two. Who promptly absconded with money from the business which she had responsiblity over.
And so now, in the fall out to all of this, guy one is able to demonstrate some pretty solid 'niceness' through all the trouble and, wouldn't you know it, 'niceness' is high up on my sister's list of requirements for a suitor all of a sudden.
Twenty-five years later, they're married and have just about finished raising two kids together.
And the weird thing is my sister still occassionally drops a line about 'having given him a chance' or 'having settled' and everytime I'm tell her 'What the fuck are you talking about' because the guy in question is warm, funny, caring, great with kids and (because this is apparently important) well over six feet tall.
Of course I don't live with them 24/7 so I don't see everything...

My sister only dates the assholes. Or at least, those are the only ones that make it long enough for me to meet.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Obviously most everyone here has no idea who they are talking to so pro rape seems over the top.
I think possibly what he was trying to say was is No was No until they got worked up enough to say yes.
To me No I am not interested is NO!
Not No but it's still ok to touch me, make out, finger my pussy and suck on my nipples cause that's hot and then ok let's do it, is not non consensual or rape.

Just like everything in life decisions take time. "Paradise by the dashboard lights " I hope is what he was saying.

Misogyny comes in many forms...
You are the total embodiment of it...
No... Means no... End of story...

Cagivagurl

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]