Do 18-24 year olds have sex any more

[iwatchus]

My evidence is the same as yours - my own life experience. And by that, I don't mean whether or not I've struck out with girls. My data set isn't me. I meant observing my friends and acquaintances, observing how young adults whom I teach think and act, etc.

Maybe, as Penny suggests, it is a maturity thing. Maybe the crowd I hung out with in high school was particularly mature, but that is not high on the list of adjectives that comes to mind about them. I know nothing about you, but maybe you hung out with of a crowd of nice, but immature guys. And you all got more successful when you grew up a bit more.

If you want to take observations of students, I have a moderately broad set but one that is hundreds of instances. I would not be aware of most one night stands, but I know when my students enter serious relationships. It is damned obvious if you pay any attention at all. And 0% of them have been the wannabe bad boys. Real bad boys aren't in a challenging major in a college setting for long, although a few may it a semester or two.

 

[iwatchus]

And there it is, ladies and gentlemen, the Kafka-trap.

I don't see that as a trap at all. Over my many years, I have heard many men, originally my age, recently much much younger, claim the "Girls don't like nice guys". In a few cases, I didn't understand why they were having so much trouble. But the vast majority of the time, the problem lay within and they cursed any mirrors.

 

[PennyThompson]

the problem lay within and they cursed any mirrors.

That is a beautiful phrase

 

[MelissaBaby]

Totally agree. But keep in mind that we were discussing decision-making concerning sex here rather than serious relationships.

If you are basing your opinions on women who make decisions about sex outside of at least the prospect of serious relationships, I'd suggest that your sample size is inadequate to make your case.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I don't see that as a trap at all. Over my many years, I have heard many men, originally my age, recently much much younger, claim the "Girls don't like nice guys". In a few cases, I didn't understand why they were having so much trouble. But the vast majority of the time, the problem lay within and they cursed any mirrors.

The issue is that, boiled down to its most basic strongest form, the claim being made is...

Any failure to achieve romantic/sexual success must always be due to a moral failing of the man.

Since, a la, original sin, we all have some kind of moral failing, there is always something that can be pointed to as an 'a-ha' - that is why you are not succeeding. Especially if you start to argue against the core principle. Everyone is an arsehole to some degree or at least at some time in their lives.

Except that looking around, tons of men who have sometimes equal, sometimes different and often much greater moral failings, are clearly having much more success.

I'm not claiming not to be an arsehole. I'm saying there are tons of men who are arseholes but are also a clear hit with the ladies.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

If you are basing your opinions on women who make decisions about sex outside of at least the prospect of serious relationships, I'd suggest that your sample size is inadequate to make your case.

It could be, but we could also be disagreeing about what a serious relationship is in this sense? Simply dating doesn't fit my definition.

 

[FrancesScott]

And there it is, ladies and gentlemen, the Kafka-trap.

Keep digging…

 

[iwatchus]

The issue is that, boiled down to its most basic strongest form, the claim being made is...

Any failure to achieve romantic/sexual success must always be due to a moral failing of the man.

Since, a la, original sin, we all have some kind of moral failing, there is always something that can be pointed to as an 'a-ha' - that is why you are not succeeding. Especially if you start to argue against the core principle. Everyone is an arsehole to some degree or at least at some time in their lives.

Except that looking around, tons of men who have sometimes equal, sometimes different and often much greater moral failings, are clearly having much more success.

I'm not claiming not to be an arsehole. I'm saying there are tons of men who are arseholes but are also a clear hit with the ladies.

I never said that women do not have their own issues. As a broad over generalization, I believe each gender has plenty of issues. And each individual has unique issues, which may or may not be in sync with the common problems found in their gender.

My only assertion is the claim that women won't sleep with nice guys is largely baseless and has been used far too often as a justification for men who have their own issues.

 

[TheRedChamber]

My only assertion is the claim that women won't sleep with nice guys is largely baseless and has been used far too often as a justification for men who have their own issues.

That's not the claim though.

Keanu Reaves is, by all accounts, a thoroughly good egg. No one, apparently has a bad word to say about him*. Lots of women would very gladly sleep with him. That's not up for debate.

The claim is that if a man cannot find a woman to sleep with him, he must not be 'nice' - and 'nice' in a moral way, not 'nice' in a phoar way.

(* breaking scandal in three, two, one...)

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I wonder at what exact moment did we let this place turn into Twitter?

 

[FrancesScott]

I'm not claiming not to be an arsehole. I'm saying there are tons of men who are arseholes but are also a clear hit with the ladies.

You seem to be claiming it’s the women’s fault. Do I have your thesis right? Or is it the alignment of Mercury, or the Sasquatch, or space aliens. Occam’s razor says we already have some ample evidence in this thread as to the actual problem. But feel free to keep providing it.

 

[TheRedChamber]

You seem to be claiming it’s the women’s fault.

Hilarious. Are you deliberately trolling me or are you just not aware of how this conversation is going?

The thread started with '18-24 year olds of either gender are having less sex'.
You came in and said it's because men are arseholes.
But I'm the one blaming women.

Sure. Keep walking into them rakes.

 

[MelissaBaby]

That's not the claim though.

Keanu Reaves is, by all accounts, a thoroughly good egg. No one, apparently has a bad word to say about him*. Lots of women would very gladly sleep with him. That's not up for debate.

The claim is that if a man cannot find a woman to sleep with him, he must not be 'nice' - and 'nice' in a moral way, not 'nice' in a phoar way.

(* breaking scandal in three, two, one...)

Nobody made that claim in this thread.

 

[TheRedChamber]

The claim is that if a man cannot find a woman to sleep with him, he must not be 'nice' - and 'nice' in a moral way, not 'nice' in a phoar way.

Nobody made that claim in this thread.

"The amount of men too ugly to ever score? About zero. It's always their attitudes and them being fucking twats."

 

[iwatchus]

The claim is that if a man cannot find a woman to sleep with him, he must not be 'nice' - and 'nice' in a moral way, not 'nice' in a phoar way.

I certainly thought the argument being made was for the converse, if a man is nice (morally as you put it), then women won't sleep with him.

The statement above is easily disproved. Many very not nice men are not having success finding sexual partners. (See incel)

For all you are claiming you are the one being reasonable, do you even admit that it is possible that the problem is that many men who think they are "nice" are either self-delusional or still immature.You say I do not admit the possibility of women being at fault. But the only question at point for quite some time is "if a man is nice, women won't sleep with them" or at least until women "grow up". But you have never allowed any possibility that the self assignment of nice is flawed. That seems to be heretical and not even to be considered.

We recently had a nice conversation and I generally have not considered you to be unreasonable. But try to take a deep breath and see if you are being blinded by your own emotions right now. I will do the same.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I certainly thought the argument being made was for the converse, if a man is nice (morally as you put it), then women won't sleep with him.

The statement above is easily disproved. Many very not nice men are not having success finding sexual partners. (See incel)

For all you are claiming you are the one being reasonable, do you even admit that it is possible that the problem is that many men who think they are "nice" are either self-delusional or still immature.You say I do not admit the possibility of women being at fault. But the only question at point for quite some time is "if a man is nice, women won't sleep with them" or at least until women "grow up". But you have never allowed any possibility that the self assignment of nice is flawed. That seems to be heretical and not even to be considered.

We recently had a nice conversation and I generally have not considered you to be unreasonable. But try to take a deep breath and see if you are being blinded by your own emotions right now. I will do the same.

Put it this way. I have a friend. He is forty-years old. He is still a virgin. He has barely dated his whole life.

How confident are you, without any more information, about applying the label 'arsehole' to my friend?

 

[FrancesScott]

the problem is that many men who think they are "nice" are either self-delusional or still immature

You are the winner of our mystery prize! And this thread is almost a textbook exhibition of the problem. It’s so weirdly self-referential and yet unaware at the same time.

And clearly age doesn’t bring maturity for some.

 

[MelissaBaby]

"Not nice" and "Being a fucking twat" are not synonymous, but I don't know what a "phoar way" means, so I might not see some nuance.

 

[Cagivagurl]

The bad guy, who is really a nice guy underneath is a Hollywood invention. They sell millions of movies based on the premise...
The nice bad guy is a mythological being...
People choose partners regardless of sexuality or gender based on whether they like that person...
Men have been trained to think women love bad guys, because it sells movies, and books.
Women have also been trapped by the creation of the myth. Some I'm sure do fall for bad men...
You only have to look at the number of women seeking shelter in battered wives shelters...
Bad people exist...
Men are no different, they seek the impossible dream that pornography sells...
Note to men... Those are actresses and actors... Not real people...

The premise of the thread, "Do young people today have less sex?"
IMO, the answer is yes, they're all stuck at home playing video games...

Cagivagurl

 

[iwatchus]

That's not the claim though.

Keanu Reaves is, by all accounts, a thoroughly good egg. No one, apparently has a bad word to say about him*. Lots of women would very gladly sleep with him. That's not up for debate.

The claim is that if a man cannot find a woman to sleep with him, he must not be 'nice' - and 'nice' in a moral way, not 'nice' in a phoar way.

(* breaking scandal in three, two, one...)

There are a huge number of things that could be happening. I find that he is too "nice" to be an extremely unlikely one.

The world is not just divided into nice guys and arseholes. As I said earlier, every individual is different.

Maybe he is afraid of women, so uncomfortable around them, that finding a female friend is hard.
Maybe he has bad personal hygiene. The vast majority of guys realize they need regular showers by their early twenties, at the latest. But I have known men in their forties who did not understand they smelled so bad it was uncomfortable to be around them.

Maybe he is just unbelievably boring. I have known people, both male and female, who I would describe this way. Very few of them have had much sexual experience.

Maybe he is only interested in women who are interested in something he is not. I have known both men and women who have struggled with their relationship life because they are only interested in people who would never be interested in them.

There are a plethora of other reasons that I would expect way before accepting that all available women reject him because he is nice. Which was the claim made earlier in this thread. That is what got my hackles up.

It is a sad reality that humans who are interested in the sexual experience are denied that. Our sexuality is such an important part of us. take a step back and surely it seems far easier to believe that the problem lies somewhere in their own individual makeup, than the entire gender of their desire rejects them for what is ostensibly a positive attribute. Rejecting them because they smell bad sure, because they are mysogynstic pigs, of course. But because they are nice. I am just not buying it. No large group of people is that homogeneous.

Just like I would not accept that all men will reject a woman because she sleeps around. Or because she doesn't.n There is always more than that. And I strongly believe that anyone trying to write their own failures off to a simple cliche like that is just making excuses, maybe to themselves even.

 

[FrancesScott]

And I strongly believe that anyone trying to write their own failures off to a simple cliche like that is just making excuses, maybe to themselves even.

 

[TheRedChamber]

There are a huge number of things that could be happening. I find that he is too "nice" to be an extremely unlikely one.

The world is not just divided into nice guys and arseholes. As I said earlier, every individual is different.

Maybe he is afraid of women, so uncomfortable around them, that finding a female friend is hard.
Maybe he has bad personal hygiene. The vast majority of guys realize they need regular showers by their early twenties, at the latest. But I have known men in their forties who did not understand they smelled so bad it was uncomfortable to be around them.

Maybe he is just unbelievably boring. I have known people, both male and female, who I would describe this way. Very few of them have had much sexual experience.

Maybe he is only interested in women who are interested in something he is not. I have known both men and women who have struggled with their relationship life because they are only interested in people who would never be interested in them.

There are a plethora of other reasons that I would expect way before accepting that all available women reject him because he is nice. Which was the claim made earlier in this thread. That is what got my hackles up.

It is a sad reality that humans who are interested in the sexual experience are denied that. Our sexuality is such an important part of us. take a step back and surely it seems far easier to believe that the problem lies somewhere in their own individual makeup, than the entire gender of their desire rejects them for what is ostensibly a positive attribute. Rejecting them because they smell bad sure, because they are mysogynstic pigs, of course. But because they are nice. I am just not buying it. No large group of people is that homogeneous.

Just like I would not accept that all men will reject a woman because she sleeps around. Or because she doesn't.n There is always more than that. And I strongly believe that anyone trying to write their own failures off to a simple cliche like that is just making excuses, maybe to themselves even.

Thank you. Funnily enough, you might have quoted the wrong bit of my post and so it looks like you are suggesting Keanu Reaves needs to shower more and might be incredibly boring. But I appreciate the sentiment.

Without going into details about my friend, yes, it's a lot of the above, but the critical thing is none of them are particularly obvious moral failings. So starting with the advice "Don't be an arsehole." isn't particularly helpful. In fact, while as a general rule of life it's good, in this case it's counter-productive because the guy isn't that much of an arsehole and alerting him to this is probably only going to police himself to make sure no action he takes is even slightly 'arseholish' and is going to end up doing nothing particularly much, which is his natural inclination anyway.

It's not a question of 'too nice.' If a woman isn't into a guy then she isn't into that guy. Full stop. But if a hundred women aren't into a guy, that doesn't suddenly and automatically make him an arsehole.

In other words, loneliness is not a moral failing.

 

[FrancesScott]

Seems like guys who have struggled with women and are complaining about it on this thread are also unwilling to listen to or acknowledge women’s perspectives. Instead they confidently assert what women want, what they don’t want, how they behave, and why. They know it all, what could a mere woman possibly contribute to such a discussion? It’s best to either dismiss them, or refute their puny emotion-ridden points with infallible, dispassionate male logic.

I’m now wondering whether this is causation or simply coincidental correlation. Further study is needed.

<< I have spoken >>

 

[TheRedChamber]

Seems like guys who have struggled with women and are complaining about it on this thread are also unwilling to listen to or acknowledge women’s perspectives. Instead they confidently assert what women want, what they don’t want, how they behave, and why. They know it all, what could a mere woman possibly contribute to such a discussion? It’s best to either dismiss them, or refute their puny emotion-ridden points with infallible, dispassionate male logic.

I’m now wondering whether this is causation or simply coincidental correlation. Further study is needed.

<< I have spoken >>

I suspect this is insulting to a lot of women who are actually able to hold their own in a proper discussion on a controversial topic, but that's just my perspective, and since you've spoken we need go no further.

I will reflect more on if I truly am an arsehole.

Is it too much to hope you might do the same?

 

[FrancesScott]

I suspect this is insulting to a lot of women who are actually able to hold their own in a proper discussion on a controversial topic

Oh look, the expert on women opining yet again. You can’t help yourself can you?