Dissent on Strunk and White

[PennLady]

I put this in the Author's Hangout and realized I probably should have put it here.

Found this via a Facebook link today and it's a neat read. I haven't read the whole thing yet, nor have I read "The Elements of Style," but after this, perhaps I won't. And as the author points out, he is not taking issue wit the "style" guidelines, but the grammar advice.

http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497

Excerpt:

The Elements of Style does not deserve the enormous esteem in which it is held by American college graduates. Its advice ranges from limp platitudes to inconsistent nonsense. Its enormous influence has not improved American students' grasp of English grammar; it has significantly degraded it.

 

[sr71plt]

There's no reason that Strunk and White should be esteemed by college graduates. It's meant for the high school level (and not fiction). College graduates should be esteeming Kate Turabian's A Manual for Writers. (which also isn't for commercial fiction).

Style guidance really is different for the different levels and types of writing.

 

[wooodyme]

May I step in this argument?

Strunk and White and Terabian are "guides." That's all.

There is no steadfast law about any of this grammar and punctuation stuff. It has all been made up as we went along. But, standardization helps us read all this mess that passes for writing. You don't have to go back many years to find all kinds of examples of different styles. Nowadays there are several different style guides which surprisingly similar.

The only goal is to make the printed language usable. The guide of choice is determined by the editor.

 

[sr71plt]

Well, no, I think you miss the point. Strunk and White is a guide for high school level essays; Turabian is a guide for college level written studies.

We write adult fiction here. Those two guides are better than nothing, but they aren't very relevant to what is written here. (Even though, as someone eventually will point out, the Web site itself recommends using Strunk and White).

And, I think you are looking through the wrong end of the teliscope on who guides to standardization are for--they are for the readers. What publishers decide to use in terms of guidance is based on their view of what paying readers will absorb most comfortably.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Shakes SR. Good to "see" you again, so to speak.

You talked me into, at one point, using the Chicago Manual of Style. And I did for a while. Then reality struck me.

Now I say just write. Write in whatever style you want.

It's worked for you.

Shakes, my man.

 

[VonRuden]

I typically use the Gregg Reference Manual. I have found it to be as thorough as I need it to be.

 

[sr71plt]

I typically use the Gregg Reference Manual. I have found it to be as thorough as I need it to be.

For fiction? The manual for stenographers, typists, and business correspondence? Really? Hmmm.

 

[sunandshadow]

I've disagreed with Strunk & White since it first appeared on my required reading list in high school. The whole idea of prescriptive writing rules is wrong; language usage is constantly evolving and should only be documented and discussed in a descriptive way, such as by describing which methods of comma use are most commonly seen in writing of specific types from specific times and places.

 

[VonRuden]

For fiction? The manual for stenographers, typists, and business correspondence? Really? Hmmm.

It's definitely not just for business writing anymore. While I haven't specifically looked at it with an eye for fiction manuscripts, I have yet to consult on a point of grammar or usage and been disappointed. It's so comprehensive everything else seems fairly anemic by comparison.

I'll grab it when I pop into the office tomorrow and give it another look with a new purpose. I'll let you know what I think.

 

[sr71plt]

There are, of course, basic points that cover all writing, but fiction and nonfiction are two entirely different animals. Most every manual that has been mentioned on this thread is for nonfiction writing, not for what we write here on Literotica. It's amazing that folks don't seem to get that there is a difference. There are also differences in levels of writing. You just don't take high school essay guidelines to commercial fiction.

I find that frequently in comments on stories--commenters with a high school essay mind-set trying to tell someone writing commercial fiction that they aren't doing it right.

 

[DeftTongue]

I love strunk and white. The set of books is perfect for adjusting the height of that one damn couch leg after I've banged a woman on it and it's shifted again.

Garner's and Chicago Manual of Style for me.

 

[StephenMiletus]

Responding to PennLady's original post, I was surprised to read the accusation that Strong & White -- well, maybe specifically White alone -- is so poor in its grammar. Both were of an age where one did not graduate from college without learning a foreign language, & one can't learn a foreign language without also learning grammar, both of that language & of English. Sometimes learning grammar that way can go horribly wrong (read a page of Milton's Areopagitica to see what I mean), but more often it sharpens one's command of grammar.

Frankly, I'd be happy if most people on Literotica could avoid the most obvious grammatical mistakes -- forget about which authority to use as a guide in grammar & usage. I'd be happy if people could properly distinguish between "you're" & "your", & did not have confusions in tense or number. It would be even better if people didn't think every use of the verb "to be" wasn't the passive voice & avoided its use like herpes, but that's the next lesson in grammar.

 

[sethp]

This

http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Well-30th-Anniversary-Nonfiction/dp/0060891548

 

[sr71plt]

http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Well-30th-Anniversary-Nonfiction/dp/0060891548

Zinsser has very good discussions on grammar points, but it's not anything close to a comprehensive guide.

 

[sethp]

Zinsser has very good discussions on grammar points, but it's not anything close to a comprehensive guide.

True, but for a good read every year or a quick reference...refresher. I don't know if I would read anything too "clinical". Know what I mean? I think there is a place for these types of books...this one especially. The question should be if this will make you better writer and the answer would be yes. If the question was something about what the most comprehensive guide or single best book is....it's like when they ask, what the best workout is. The answer is always. "The one that you'll do".

What is the best book? The one that you will read and use. For me it's this one.

 

[sr71plt]

There isn't any one "best book." Unless you're letting a lot of what should be questions just drift by you, something like Zinsser is too general to be either an "only" or even "best" guide. For technicals in writing fiction in the U.S. market the Chicago Manual of Style is the "best" guide, no matter how much "it's all about me" writers want to rail against it. It's the most comprehensive. But books like Zinsser's can help explain some issues more fully. I have Zinsser in a bookshelf in reach of me, along with Bernstein's Careful Writer, Sharpe and Gunther's Editing Fact and Fiction, Gordon's Transitive Vampire, Fowler's Modern English Usage, the American Heritage English Usage, and about every style manual known to man. I haven't needed to pull Zinsser out in years.

If I want I quick, very basic explanation of a grammar or punctuation point, I pull out the American Heritage guide, Daniels' English Grammar, or Ehrlich's Punctuation, Capitalization, and Spelling. Very basic explanations with clear examples.

There isn't any one of these that's going to trump the Chicago Manual of Style, though in finding the answer that gives "best use" advice in the American system. All of them, though, will help in some areas where the CMS is sketchy. I rarely go to Fowler, though, as it seems to try to be as confusing as it can possibly be and to treat me like I was dumb even to need to ask the question.

 

[sr71plt]

How many style manuals are there? you ask.

On the shelf next to my left hand, I have:

The Chicago Manual of Style
Strunk and White
Turabian's Manual for Writers
The American Heritage English Usage
The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage
The Government Printing Office's A Manual of Style
The MLA Handbook
The Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual
The American Psychological Association Publication Manual

Nearly all of these I use in nonfiction editing only.

The only two that are directly relevant to fiction writing are the Chicago Manual of Style and the American Heritage English Usage manual.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Edited to: The Editor’s Forum is for authors and editors to discuss issues related to editing stories. People are forgetting this. It's not a place for personal arguments, attacks, or discussions not related to editing stories.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Be Hesitant of Using An editor That Can't Spelll

Or do so at your own peril

 

[AsylumSeeker]

My point being that I am very impressed by SR71's knowledge,

As much as I distaste her, she has much knowledge.

 

[_Lynn_]

My point being that I am very impressed by SR71's knowledge,

As much as I distaste her, she has much knowledge.

He is knowledgeable, yes.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Edited to: The Editor’s Forum is for authors and editors to discuss issues related to editing stories. People are forgetting this. It's not a place for personal arguments, attacks, or discussions not related to editing stories.

You are quite correct. Excuse me. I asked Laurel to erase my account, but she has not yet found time to do that. Maybe you can spur her on. In the meantime I will do my best to limit my comments to story-writing and editing.

Please take note that in another thread I have agreed to edit a story. For the record. In another words, I am doing what SR won't. For the record.

 

[sr71plt]

Once again, I do edit Literotica stories for folks and have done so recently. That said, there's no requirement that I do so. I am writing and contributing my own stories regularly, which takes up my time--and I'm not signed up as a volunteer editor here. None of this has anything to do with whether I know how to edit--just as others offering to edit constitutes no evidence in itself that they really know how to edit.

 

[sr71plt]

The point of using commercial fiction style guides if you can for writing stories to Literotica rather than nonfiction and/or high school or college guides is that the latter are more confining in how you can present your story and are more likely to arrive at a dry, stilted story. Using any recognized guide, of course, is better than using none or relying on hearsay. But if you want to be able to write fiction with as few impediments to your creative expression as possible, commercial fiction style guides are the better way to go.