Discussion from Grassroots: Lucky-E-leven

[Pure]

4-19 This thread is 'up'; open for discussion of Lucky's Story.


Discussion from grassroots: Lucky E-leven

Let us proceed with Lucky E-levens story, below. Leave comments and constructive critique in this thread.

Something about You

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=126480

I believe it's been a while since a lesbian category story was looked at. This is fine story; thanks Lucky. It's not short, but, if time limited, read at least the first two literotica pages.

Consider:
How well does the characterization work? Why?
How does the work rate for style? How does that contribute to its eroticism?

J.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I'll jump in on this one, but keep in mind I am new to this.

I think Lucky's characters are very well rounded and believable. They have lives of their own, personalities and emotions.
I think her characterization is one of the things I enjoyed the first time I had ever read one of her stories.
I don't post feedback unless I really am blown away by the story and her style seemed to be refreshing.

As far as the erotic aspect of the story, it works for me. I want to say because there is a romantic level to it more than just a straight sex. The buildup is great and the story pulls you along.

I hope I've given a little justice to this critique, as I've mentioned, it's a new thing for me. I write what I think.

~A~

 

[Pure]

Let's proceed with this thread.

Thanks Abs. Of course it's a fine story, but did you have an questions or reservations about anything, charaterization, plotting, etc.?

We are looking for balance as well as constructiveness.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I might have to recuse myself from this one. I’ve tired to read it 3 times now, and I just can’t get past the middle of page 2. I know it’s well-written. It might even be great. But half-way through page 2 and I’m terribly bored, irritated and impatient, and I’m not sure why.

Certainly to my tastes there’s way too much backstory at the start, and that put me in a sour and impatient mood. The way I look at backstory now, it’s like, what do we absolutely have to know before we can get into the live action of the story? In this case it seems like it’s not that much: that Savannah and Becca are lovers, that Becca’s been away and is due back, and the Savannah is horny. Maybe we need to know that Savannah has a daughter, where she works and what she does and exactly what problems she’s facing at work right now. Maybe that’s important later on in the story, but to me it all has the feeling of marching in place. It doesn’t help that the background action for all this has her jogging, and action that in itself has little to do with the story. (If we were getting this backstory as she was, say, cleaning the house prior to Becca’s return, we could have seen her performing actions that would have supported all this information. We could see how anxious she was to see Becca by the way she makes the bed, the way she prepares herself, etc. She might have straightened a picture of her daughter, put away the office work she left on the dining room table, things like that. Just jogging seems to have nothing to do with the story itself.

The writing is very good and stylistically beyond reproach. LEL doesn’t have to worry about mechanics and all that, so there’s nothing to discuss on that topic..

What troubles me is the strange lack of sexual heat I felt between them once the sex began I want to stress that this might be entirely me, some lack on my part.(I’ll admit too that I often find stories about loving sex somehow flat and lacking in drama; certainly not as exciting as a seduction.) The sex was beautifully described, and yet it didn’t move me. Was I too worn out by the long beginning? Or were there too many distractions in the sex itself, too many switches between what they were doing on the outside and what they were feeling and thinking on the inside? I have a rule I follow in sex scenes, a kind of variation on the “show, don’t tell” dictum: never tell the reader what they’re feeling if you can possibly show it through their actions and responses. But there was a lot of this kind of thing:

Savanna had only intended to prove Becca wrong with a single tempting lick, but she was lost to all calculated thought the instant she tasted her lover's arousal. Intoxicating and intense were two words she might have used if asked to describe the unique taste of her small friend. And like a piece of metal to a magnet Savanna's tongue refused to part contact with the excited button, her own rising excitement pushing her to quicken the movements of her tongue.

This jerks us way out of the action and puts us firmly inside Savannah’s head with her thoughts. I’m not entirely sure that this is what made me find the sex unarousing, but for all the assurances of wild and overwhelming passio—and there certainly are enough of these--I just didn’t feel it. It didn’t come across too me.

I wondered whether the sex might be too detailed, whether there maybe should come a time when the details go by the board and passion takes over. Not sure.

I had one other disturbing thought about my take on this piece, about not finding much heat in it. Might it be that this story treats these women with such acceptance and approval that I find the idea of lesbian love drained of erotic potential, almost boring? Does it do away with that naughty little frisson of a transgression I find so necessary to good porn? As I said, I myself am usually left cold by stories of loving sex between, say, a husband and wife. They seem to me to lack drama and fire and the kind of subtle nastiness that gives a story erotic heat. For me, sexc between accpeting lovers is kind of like kissing your sister. I wonder whether these women are so clearly in love and accepting of what they do that I just don’t feel the erotic thrill. Sex can be like a battle and conquest, or it can be like a sustained hug, and this story to me was the latter.

If so, this is entirely my problem and no reflection on the story.

I remember thinking, back when gays were first battling for acceptance and the right to be treated like everyone else that maybe they shouldn’t push that hard because acceptance might take all the specialness and color out of being gay. That’s probably a reprehensible attitude to have, but that’s what I thought. There’s something inherently thrilling and dangerous about bucking the system, something that’s lost when the behavior is accepted. And I wonder if that’s what my problem is with this story.

These are two women who are very much in love and totally comnfortable in their sexuality, and that’s wonderful for them. But I wonder if that lends itself to making a really hot story.

---dr.M.

 

[Lying Eyes]

Interesting read,

In the beginning I also felt like dr_mabuese and alot of my comments are similar.

Was bored in the begining but did stick through with it and ended up really enjoying it by the end.

First paragraph kind of threw me off because I automaticly asumed she was on a beach soaking up the sun. Reading the second paragrah I was anoyed to see that my image was wrong and she was running. Funny she mentions that she can hear the blood past her ears, in my case I would be hearing my panting and weezing. Becca must be in some shape since no mention of her breathing even when she decides not to not cool off by walking and continues running.

I became bored with references to accounts, auditers, exclients. Both characters seem to have dry stiff profesional careers, I was just not intrested at all with the details. I wished one of them would have a much more ordinary job such as a waitress. Even the "projects" Savanah gives Becka to ocupy her mind seems really dry instead of romantic. Write an essay! Make up a list! I'm wishing you hadnt mention essay and lists because that sounds like boring school work.

I think a flaw in the story to me is that it almost is an overkill in detail at times. Honestly I would of normaly given up after reading the first page if it was not for being on this discussion board. I bet you lost alot of readers with the length of this story. Four pages seems to long for a story with not alot of conflict or twists.

But I think the bigest flaw is that Savanah and Becka's life seems almost too perfect. They love each other madly, they have a child (and how convienent she isnt there to disturb them), they live in a great neighborhood, everyone in the area (Luigi, old lady, Max) seems to accept who they are, they have successful careers and they are both in awesome shape since they seem almost like marathon runners. The only negative things are problems in Becka's job, but Becka is such a great employee (of course she is perfect) that she manages to get the exclients to want to come back to the firm. Also Savanah being busy at work is a negative but this only drives Becka to build stronger desire for her. And what do you know at the end she turns the car around and can easily blow off work (yeah right!) to be with Becka again.... Everything is just way <b>TOO PERFECT</b> even for a fantasy!!! I would like a bit more conflict somewhere in this story. Maybe Becka breaking down and crying on the phone telling her how much she misses her before finding out she is just outside the door. Or have Savanah have a conflict with choosing either her job or being with Becka. So she has to give up her career if she wants to stay with Becka.

I was really suprise you mentioned Savanah's changing eye color. I thought this was really neat to put in. I have never seen someone do this but suposedly in some very rare people they can change eye color with emotions. I realy wished you had done more with this maybe have Becka mention this in dialog when she sees Savanahs eyes turn purple with passion. Becka seems really exited by this and I have to admit if I found a woman that did this with me I probably be the same way...

The upside down kiss was a stroke of genius! I'm surprised I never ran into this idea in another story. Very sexy....

Also after Savanah and Becka return from the run their is little mention of their sweat other then Savanah tasting the salty film on Becka's skin. Needed alot more discription then that which is really odd because in most of the story their is almost too much detail. Their bodies should be sticking together, sweat running down their bodies. Of course maybe they are perfect, they dont sweat after running....

Seems like I wrote more negative's then postives but strangely enough when I was about to vote at the end I was compeled to cast a 5! I don't know if it deserves that in my mind, its weird I kind of love it and hate it at the same time. I would be really intrested in reading a story of yours that has alot more drama. You certainly have talent in writing its just needs something more to spice up the content of the story.

 

[Black Tulip]

Lucky,

What I really liked about this story is the way you describe the body feelings. You seem to be very in touch with bodily emotions.
(Or maybe just mine. LOL) And you have a nice way of describing them.
For example: the running bit, the way the excercise takes over.

as her tongue worried the center of Savanna's universe until everything beneath her began to clench and quiver out of control.

She looked into her lover's smiling face and the instantaneous joy that surged from her heart threatened to bring tears to her eyes.

I like the way you make the feeling of love into something physical.

The first paragraph is beautiful, takes me right into the feeling of the moment.

She had lost two accounts this week. Is it her company? This confused me.

The love tasks is a nice idea, but I need more persuasion. Why would you do homework for your lover? It is a bit like a schoolteacher.

Savanna's eyes: is this paragraph really necessary?

She was having tons of fun because while Savanna was pretty in touch with what turned her on, there was a whole host of other things they'd never come across or shared with one another.

Why not share some of that fun? That way the reader can understand why she gets aroused.

She felt a little foolish when a picture of her little girl, Isabelle, caught her eye but she figured even moms needed to feel sexy and indulge naughty thoughts once in a while. Which was almost comical, because Becca could barely have a thought that wasn't naughty when Savanna was near and it took all of her willpower to keep things chaste in front of their little girl? They did well enough, though, and only resorted to running to the bedroom and locking the door twice a month or so.

I had to read this part more than once to understand what you were trying to say here. First time I thought huh? She couldn't sleep because her lover was gone for two days and they only do it twice a month? Still not sure I do understand.

"the disgruntled companies" suggests more than one, but later on in the story it looks as if it is one meeting with more persons from one company. You even give one name.

Packing the notebook in her briefcase makes sense if she wants to tease herself, keep herself on edge with the naughtyness of it. In my opinion you take that away again with the last sentence, naming it absurd.

The full moon is funny.

The dominance of Becca is too much of a surprise for me. One minute she gets swatted and the next she calls the shots? Then Savanna straddles her although she is so tired that she welcomes Becca telling her what to do. And then Becca lets herself be blindfolded.

The most pressing issue for Savanna at this time, however, was the vice-like grip the woman had on her hands.

Why did you put this in? It detracts from the general feeling in my opinion.

Yes, I lied, but only because you were mocking my desire for you.

Mocking has an unfriendly connotation for me. That could be just personal, I don't know.

She asked angrily and lifted her shoulders to argue face to face.

Really angry would spoil the mood, I think.

Becca has been displaying a dominant trait but now you say she had never taken charge like that before.
Besides, you say Savanna was a total control freak. But if she is, how come she gives in so easily? I don't find that believable.
And where is the element of pain coming from? If they never discussed this, isn't it a bit funny to suddenly introduce pain? It would certainly scare the hell out of me if it came out of the blue like this.

Savanna saw her head lowering to her pussy and nearly panicked when she imagined those teeth abusing her clit the way they had her nipples.

I'm not sure, but I would guess the turn off would be complete by now.
Unless you really like this kind of thing, but then there would be anticipation, not near panick.

She thoroughly enjoyed having Savanna in this frenzied and almost incoherent state of desire and wondered why she'd never teased her this way before.

This is good, but why not have her think on this beforehand. Something like this does not drops from the sky.

Savanna knew she must have looked like a wanton whore to Becca

Why? Have you deleted something here?

It was a different kind of ultimate pleasure that failed to rock her body mercilessly,

I find it a pleasant surprise that you mention different kinds of orgasm.

Sunday was productive and laden with innuendo and lusty promises as they painted the kitchen, wall papered the guest bathroom and organized the storage closet.

Um, all that in one Sunday?
Why not skip the whole Sunday?

Good morning, Brian, it's Savanna."

"The trip was fine, but not very productive."

"I know. Look, I'm not going to be in today after all, so please field what you can and leave the rest on my desk for tomorrow."

"That's fine. See you then."

Not sure what, but something is wrong with this dialogue. Who says it's not productive? And how can the other one know it wasn't?


Phew!
I hope this does not give you the impression I didn't like the story. I did enjoy reading it although I do not seek out lesbian stories for my own pleasure.
As I said, I think you do very well in relating feelings. My main problem is with your psychology. If Becca wants to take more control in their lovemaking I think you should give it more of a build up. Let her think about it, fantasize. Give a few hints. And if Savanna is a control freak, she can only be that in certain area's of her life then. Does that make her a freak?

I hope this helps.



Edited: after posting this I read the other comments. I did not mention the fact that I didn't find it very erotic. I left that out because I dislike loving stories, they're boring to me. Seeing I'm not the only one I think it's only fair to add it.

 

[Pure]

I think there's lots of excellent writing, and that, respecting L's choice, she did quite a fine job. The choice being to deal with the minutiae of thoughts and feelings, along with the details of lovemaking of the two who are reunited.

Here's an example of some nice sentences, of a type not often seen in these parts:

Becca shot back a radiant smile and Savanna knew she'd just been played. But it didn't bother her in the least and she was just as eager to have the petite woman in her arms again. She watched Becca turn to leave and smacked her naked fanny for which she received a startled gasp and saw the brunette whirl around so quickly her hair fanned out and hit her in the face when she stopped. Savanna simply giggled and waved at her, encouraging her to head upstairs and fight the urge to say something about the swat. Her nipples poked hard into her bra when Becca sauntered toward the stairs and Savanna was captivated by the alternating sway of her hips as she climbed each stair on her way to their bedroom.
====

One sometimes has the feeling of too much detail, since two minds are being looked into. It seems like the problem is the attempt to include thoughts, and in writing they slow things down more than in real life where they pass in a split second. Some of these are what dr m called 'backstory.'

===
Although Lucky's pretty skilled, and generally not purple, she does sometimes, imo, overreach in the adjectives, e.g.,

Savanna evaded her searching hands and ducked her head to swipe her tongue across the turgid* nipple before her.

"Oh!" Becca cried out in surprise and her hands flew to her head and buried themselves in her auburn* locks as pleasure rolled into her chest.

Savanna smiled and sucked the excited* nubbin into her mouth alternating between suckling and swirling her tongue over it until she thought her lover might pull out a handful of hair. She released the treat and attacked its counterpart next, bringing forth a sharp moan and shiver from the smaller woman. Becca's hands suddenly moved into her hair and while Savanna's didn't really mind having her face ground into the lush bounty beneath her, she wanted to take her time tonight.

She took as much of the creamy* flesh into her mouth as she could and lifted her head until the contact was broken with a loud pop, causing Becca to shudder and pout.

---
But I liked the 'handful of hair' and the 'pop'. Hate the word 'causing'.

===
===
Notwithstanding the high degree of literacy and fine vocabulary, one occasionally sees mistakes of word choice or grammar.


and Becca simply laid there staring up at her most prized asset,

...
The reaction she received decried the brunette's previous statement and Savanna smiled in satisfaction.
...

each massive explosion disturbed another coiled bomb nearby

----

I don't know what coiled bomb is, though I suppose, like a snake, it's easily triggered.

===
===

Overall, I admire the piece a little more than I can really resonate with all the details, but I greatly appreciate the skill. Reminds a bit of Woolf.

I think Stephen King's rule would apply. At least 10% could be cut to tighten. The lush prose just flows, and a loving editor needs to chop a bit. I'm told this is what Thomas Wolfe's editor did.

One last thing, for now. I think the piece can't quite decide whether to be porn or not. Given the attention to the feelings, etc., some of the physical details are a bit much, esp. when actions, like fingering, are repeated; I don't always need to know on each occasion which finger went in first, how deep, and which followed. In other words, I feel they are put there to reach the crotch of the audience in a fairly blatant way.

Overall, a very talented way of writing a complex situation, in often lovely, flowing sentences. A nice melding of style, feeling, sex, sensations, longings, doubts, etc., as noted by Black T. An ambitious task, well achieved, if a bit of a 'rough cut.'

J.

 

[Omni]

Couple of things that have not been mentioned.

Your writing is good, I think if you concentrate on a plot filled with more tension, and you cull, every two paragraphs of minute description down to one. It would make your talented writing better.

As, Pure said there are some excellent descriptive sentences in here. Just lost somewhat in the never ending detail.

One thing as a reader, I wanted to know a couple things that were on that "what turns me on list"

I noticed on the first part of the sex that I read that you skip between both womens POV in the same paragraph. This needs to be more separated as it confuses the reader as to who is doing what, feeling what etc.

I did not finish the story because it had no hooks to keep me reading, and then when I did reach the hook of sex, it was a bit confusing. You have the writing talent, you just need to hone your story plot, move your story along at a better pace, and find tension.

Omni

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Lucky,

I echo what everyone else has said. Beautiful writing, well-rounded characters, good mechanics, but a tad boring. I'm not positive, but I may have at least a partial explanation.

CONFLICT

There's almost none. Boiled down to its essence, all fiction is about conflict. Someone, usually the protag, has a want (success, survival, self-respect, love, the Holy Grail, a dumb ring, etc.) and something or someone is keeping them from reaching that goal.

In this story, the biggest want seems to be getting back together and that's accomplished quickly and with little fuss. Where is the conflict? Someone on Lit once said what makes writing Incest stories so appealing is the conflict being built-in. Will they? Won't they? How do they get away with it? What happens if caught? Those are all conflict related issues.

There are other possible problems. The opening is slow. That is it takes some time before readers can figure out what the story is about. Some folks like that. And there have been great novels written with slow openings ("The Sound and the Fury" comes to mind).

However, Faulkner's opus wasn't exactly a best seller and these days, most readers seem to prefer a faster pace and a quicker opening hook.

The other problem is prolixity. The issue of flowery vs terse is, to a certain extent, a matter of a writer's voice. And everybody, including me, has raved about your style. As you and I discussed, it also may be a gal/guy thing. However, sometimes that one extra descriptive phrase is redundant, for instance:

"She waved back and smiled when he complimented her beauty, in Italian, as he did every time he saw her whether she was running or coming in for supper. "

If he complimented her every time he saw her, then either the phrase "every time he saw her" or "whether she was running or coming in for supper" is redundant.

In a way, you face an unusual problem. You're already very good at what most of us beat our brains out trying to perfect. The style, mechanics, characterizations are all first-rate. The challenge is learning how to make your story telling ability just as good.

Would that I had a simple answer. I don't of course. It's going to take study, practice, and a decision on your part as to just what type of writer you want to be. Don't get discouraged. Most writers would love to face your dilemma.

Assuming you buy into at least some of this bilge, I've got a suggestion. Take some time off writing short stories to concentrate on just short, simple scenes or, at most, vignettes. Use them to prune your writing like you would a rose bush, not to make it stark and bare, but to highlight those flowery parts of the story you most want the reader to notice.

While practicing that, you might invest a little time studying plot, structure, story telling.

Don't get discouraged. There's more than a reasonable chance I'm totally wrong. Feel free to get in touch with me to cuss or discuss any of this.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Hi Lucky,

I read the story, will comment when I am not so heavily drugged.

-Colly

 

[lucky-E-leven]

*cracks knuckles* Okay, here goes nothing.

First, I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to read even parts of the story and respond with your comments. Sorry it’s taken me so long to reply, but it took me a while to sort everything out and make sense of it. Posting a story here has been a humbling and interesting study of what NOT to do. I’m glad I did it and would like to thank Pure for his encouragement to do so.

Boring & Detail Overkill: This story is actually built on an excerpt from a novel I wrote last year. The initial story seemed so naked without any of the back story, but I realize now that this was just for my benefit and that I have an issue with trimming. I first started writing short stories to help with cutting back on unnecessary detail, but obviously I have a long way to go on that score.

Length: All of my stories are long by lit standards. I normally don't receive much, if any, satisfaction out of a one page story and even a full two is pushing it (as a reader). This is just a personal preference of mine and I'll likely continue writing longer than 'normal' stories here. But I will work on getting them down to about three pages and keeping them interesting from start to finish. **A sidenote: My first story ever posted here was 6 Lit pages and somehow managed to earn a month end nomination. This makes me wonder if length is as big an issue as some would suggest. My guess is that the story's 'success' (term VERY loosely used here) is based on the fact that it is along the lines of 'pursuit and capture' vs. an established relationship. It's clear, though, that loving sex is not of that much interest to most.

Conflict: As I said earlier, this story was taken from a scene I had fun with in a much larger body of work. There really isn't any conflict here and I now realize that's necessary to 'hook'. This scene takes place near the end of the novel where nearly all of the conflict has already occured and it was triumphant for me because it was about overcoming the conflict and celebrating. *noting: Not a good idea for a Lit story*

Story telling: Thanks Rumple. This is something I have needed someone to come right out and tell me for a long time. If I may, I'd guess my problem in writing is that I write the way I'd tell a story verbally. The problem (in my mind) being that it takes too damn long to wade through it as a reader, whereas if you're actually listening, the details are quick and add visual images to the tale. I see now that many of the details are unnecessary and while it's nice and easy to tell myself that, it's hell on productivity. I'm glad I haven't written any more than three stories here and hope like heck that I've not developed any habits that can't be broken, but that remains to be seen. Ever since this story went up, almost a month ago, I haven't been able to write a word.

I've taken your suggestion and purchased Mr. King's book, in hopes that I can dump the adjective problem and find a way to omit petty details that somehow seem important to me, but do nothing more than detract from the overall story. I still say the flowery vs. terse is a girl/guy thing but I must be a bit of an extreme case. *grins*

Thank you all for your honesty. I almost feel I should apologize for boring you, but instead I'll just promise to work on it and come back with something better next time. I have begun writing again, btw.



~lucky

Thanks again, Pure. I needed this.