Designed to fail

[Keroin]

I'm really not even going to comment here.

You kind of just did, actually.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

You kind of just did, actually.

No. That was a non-comment comment. And this is a non-comment comment comment.

 

[Keroin]

No. That was a non-comment comment. And this is a non-comment comment comment.

And this is a...oh look, balloons!

 

[neci]

pop! pop! pop! pop! pop!

 

[Homburg]

I feel some kind of explanation is in order.

I’m leery about digging to deeply into this. So let me just say that BDSM and everything about it – *for me* - is about fun, about play. It is where I go to enjoy myself and I just can’t take anything there too seriously outside of the moment. Now, in the rest of my life, (yes, I compartmentalize my BDSM), if I were to fail my hubby in some significant way, I’d feel terrible, as I would feel bad for failing anyone I loved in any important way.

And I think that my wiring is different enough from what I’m reading from everyone else that the idea of a PYL “making an excuse” to deliver punishment just doesn’t register for me. That's not what it's about, for me.

I'm going to tread a fine line here, so bear with me.

I think you are cool with this because you are not as serious about your submission/bottoming as many other s-types here. And by "serious", I do not mean "committed". Not saying you aren't committed to your dynamic. I am saying that you are taking it no more seriously than you do yourself, much of your life, etc.

For many s-types, their submission is absolutely core to their personality, and they take it very, very seriously indeed. The consequences of failure are thus much more emotionally severe. Again, they are not more committed or less to their dynamic, but there is more of a sense of seriousness about it.

I think the example of the iphone game is a good one to explore though. Even a person so serious about submission, and thus very anti-failure, would be fine with failure in a game. Satindesire, to use an actual example, plays WoW, and I will go out on a limb and say that she's failed in that game more times than she can count. I know I have myself. But it is a different milieu and thus there is a different mindset about it. You can get wound up over a big failure, but the little ones are just minor speedbumps. Rez, rinse, repeat.

Me personally, I can't stand tasks that are designed to fail, be it for me or by my own hand. I don't mind tasks that are so frikken hard that failure is a distinct possibility, but that guaranteed? Nope. I don't need an excuse to punish.

There is also the idea that failure puts someone in their place. I find this lame. I give my girls credit for having the same ability to recognise circumstances in which success is impossible. In those situations, I assume they will react with the same sort of frustration and irritation at the person that put them in that fail as I would. Why would I want to engender resentment?

And maybe it is just my own relationship to failure. I lift weights, and no matter how strong I get, there are always more plates. Gravity will ALWAYS win in the end. How do I feel when I fail to lift? If it is a weight I should get, I feel pissed. At that point, I failed me. If it is a weight I've never lifted before, I don't feel bothered at all. Gee, put 600lbs ont hat bar and it's gonna squash me like a bug. Big shock. I hit failure often enough under the bar that it is just another event. Big frikken deal. Nothing sexy in that.

Now, set some difficult task, watch her struggle, sweat, even cry, and then pull out a success? That's hot. But I am more interested in praise than punishment anyway. Punishment usually means that I have failed in some way after all.

 

[Keroin]

I'm going to tread a fine line here, so bear with me.

I think you are cool with this because you are not as serious about your submission/bottoming as many other s-types here. And by "serious", I do not mean "committed". Not saying you aren't committed to your dynamic. I am saying that you are taking it no more seriously than you do yourself, much of your life, etc.

For many s-types, their submission is absolutely core to their personality, and they take it very, very seriously indeed. The consequences of failure are thus much more emotionally severe. Again, they are not more committed or less to their dynamic, but there is more of a sense of seriousness about it.

I think the example of the iphone game is a good one to explore though. Even a person so serious about submission, and thus very anti-failure, would be fine with failure in a game. Satindesire, to use an actual example, plays WoW, and I will go out on a limb and say that she's failed in that game more times than she can count. I know I have myself. But it is a different milieu and thus there is a different mindset about it. You can get wound up over a big failure, but the little ones are just minor speedbumps. Rez, rinse, repeat.

Me personally, I can't stand tasks that are designed to fail, be it for me or by my own hand. I don't mind tasks that are so frikken hard that failure is a distinct possibility, but that guaranteed? Nope. I don't need an excuse to punish.

There is also the idea that failure puts someone in their place. I find this lame. I give my girls credit for having the same ability to recognise circumstances in which success is impossible. In those situations, I assume they will react with the same sort of frustration and irritation at the person that put them in that fail as I would. Why would I want to engender resentment?

And maybe it is just my own relationship to failure. I lift weights, and no matter how strong I get, there are always more plates. Gravity will ALWAYS win in the end. How do I feel when I fail to lift? If it is a weight I should get, I feel pissed. At that point, I failed me. If it is a weight I've never lifted before, I don't feel bothered at all. Gee, put 600lbs ont hat bar and it's gonna squash me like a bug. Big shock. I hit failure often enough under the bar that it is just another event. Big frikken deal. Nothing sexy in that.

Now, set some difficult task, watch her struggle, sweat, even cry, and then pull out a success? That's hot. But I am more interested in praise than punishment anyway. Punishment usually means that I have failed in some way after all.

Good points H. Probably there are a few reasons why I like the dynamic. As you mentioned, I just don't take most things too seriously - BDSM included. I'm also thick skinned and I enjoy testing myself. It's the act of "trying" that gets me off more so than the result. But also, I generally don't view "failure" as bad. It's part of a process for me.

My ego can stand some shit kicking now and then too - a not-so-gentle reminder that I'm only human. For me, that's a healthy, necessary thing.

I should also clarify that I don't "see" these tasks as impossible when I'm doing them because...hey...I'm me...I can win this! LOL. Now, if the task was something along the lines of what Gracie mentioned, like "Go fly off the balcony", something obviously impossible/harmful, then yeah, there'd be some eye rolling and not much else.

I'm sorry, I think it's really hard to explain why this is so appealing to me. And not all the time, not every day, but occasionally. Probably everyone else's POV on this is much more sane.

But enough about me, let's talk about me! (See, ego on the loose!)

Ha.

ETA: Just thought of something. For the sake of this discussion, I would toss out the word "punishment" entirely when referring to my BDSM stuff. Cause, yeah, punishment just isn't a thing with me. Instead, I should say there are "consequences" for failure.

 

[Kikori]

Of course there's going to be "success" and "failure" in if the actual goal of the mission was achieved or not. If the conditions of the "success" aren't explicitly met, then yes, it's pretty much a failure... on paper.

Problem is, pretty much every goal has latent functions. If someone makes a demand that has no chance for success, that's their... I'd say "problem", but it's not always a problem. Rather, it's their fault for putting the one fulfilling the task through making an effort for the impossible. However, despite the demands for success BEING achieving the impossible, it's always an option that the real reason for such a goal involves the effort itself. I'm certain few could think it's not any bit attractive, nice, hot, sweet, or pretty much any kind of positive that someone is making a genuine effort to do what you want, especially if they know they won't succeed. Like Homburg, I'm far more fond of praise than punishment, but there's at least a chance that punishment doesn't await the failure, since the goal may not always be a strict success or failure to reach the end.

There's also the thought of goals that, even if they aren't succeeded at, will leave a mark or impression that will at least last. For example, a personal goal to improve one's body in some way. More specific example, weight loss. If someone wants to drop a hundred pounds but only gets seventy-five (or even fifty), that's still a more positive situation than where they started, even if the goal wasn't met. The perception of the one who set the goal, and the interpretation of the one working on it (whether or not they are the same person) has more to do with if a success or failure in terms of "Did I do it?" is the same as a personal success or failure in terms of "Am I happy with the effort / whatever progress was made?"

Also, as subish and Homburg mentioned, a lighthearted goal versus a personal one matters quite a bit. If a goal is simply to do a task, albeit impossible, then it's probably not going to run much risk of actually bringing down the mood of whoever fails the task. However, going back to a weight loss example, it's quite possible for a lack of success to leave seeds of doubt in someone's mind, whether it be the one losing the weight for being unable to make it or a witness thinking the former isn't devoted enough.

If I went off track, thoughts in a nutshell: It's probably the thrill of trying to perform a task, and the joy of watching someone genuinely try for something you asked them to do that makes tasks (even the impossible ones) fun for some people.

 

[graceanne]

Ok, just a though about my issues with 'designed to fail' stuff.

I grew up in a world where no matter how good I was I wasn't as good as my sister; my world was designed to for me to fail. I grew up in a world where my mother used guilt like a sword to keep us in line; I still struggle with 'free floating guilt' where I feel guilty but there's no reason WHY, I just do. I was also, routinely, punished for something that my sister did or something that my mom had imagined I'd done. When I'm assigned to do something that I CANNOT do, and/or guilted for something I didn't do (you were bad! *spank*) it puts me in a very bad place and I respond to that guilt with a lot of anger and the new york state bird.

 

[subish2009]

I'm going to tread a fine line here, so bear with me.

I think you are cool with this because you are not as serious about your submission/bottoming as many other s-types here. And by "serious", I do not mean "committed". Not saying you aren't committed to your dynamic. I am saying that you are taking it no more seriously than you do yourself, much of your life, etc.

For many s-types, their submission is absolutely core to their personality, and they take it very, very seriously indeed. The consequences of failure are thus much more emotionally severe. Again, they are not more committed or less to their dynamic, but there is more of a sense of seriousness about it.

I think the example of the iphone game is a good one to explore though. Even a person so serious about submission, and thus very anti-failure, would be fine with failure in a game. Satindesire, to use an actual example, plays WoW, and I will go out on a limb and say that she's failed in that game more times than she can count. I know I have myself. But it is a different milieu and thus there is a different mindset about it. You can get wound up over a big failure, but the little ones are just minor speedbumps. Rez, rinse, repeat.

Me personally, I can't stand tasks that are designed to fail, be it for me or by my own hand. I don't mind tasks that are so frikken hard that failure is a distinct possibility, but that guaranteed? Nope. I don't need an excuse to punish.

There is also the idea that failure puts someone in their place. I find this lame. I give my girls credit for having the same ability to recognise circumstances in which success is impossible. In those situations, I assume they will react with the same sort of frustration and irritation at the person that put them in that fail as I would. Why would I want to engender resentment?

And maybe it is just my own relationship to failure. I lift weights, and no matter how strong I get, there are always more plates. Gravity will ALWAYS win in the end. How do I feel when I fail to lift? If it is a weight I should get, I feel pissed. At that point, I failed me. If it is a weight I've never lifted before, I don't feel bothered at all. Gee, put 600lbs ont hat bar and it's gonna squash me like a bug. Big shock. I hit failure often enough under the bar that it is just another event. Big frikken deal. Nothing sexy in that.

Now, set some difficult task, watch her struggle, sweat, even cry, and then pull out a success? That's hot. But I am more interested in praise than punishment anyway. Punishment usually means that I have failed in some way after all.

Bear with me for a sec because this is going to be the vaguest possible response unless someone grasps what I'm referring to. H, remember that video that was up in...some thread a while back with all those hot girls doing some sort of agility course on some kind of foreign (I think) game show? All that concentration and focus, and they kept failing again and again, but the effort alone was hot. I don't believe it was in a BDSM context, so it's not the same as what we're discussing, but I also don't see why it couldn't have been a BDSM context. My online D in particular would be ALL. OVER. seeing me attempt something like that, making me do it, for him, cheering me on, coaching me, etc.

However, I also totally get, H, what you're saying to K about the level of seriousness (I feel like there's a better word for what I think you're trying to say, but I can't come up with it either) in her D/s dynamic compared to others here, and I think the same is true for me. Punishments, true punishments, don't really exist in either of my D/s relationships either. I feel I may be somewhere in between where K is on the spectrum and where I perceive most s-types on this board to be. And I do suspect that this difference may be directly related to the tolerance of failure within the D/s relationship by the pyl. Not in a causative way, but correlative, sure.

 

[satindesire]

What Mister Hom said about game-failure vs. real-life failure was too true.

Being an AVID gamer for almost my entire life (Since I was old enough to know what a video game was, really), I'm accustomed to game failure and understand that effort produces improvement and improvement produces positive results. Game failure is never permanent because game makers WANT you to play their game repetitively. If a game was "Lose once and you can never play it again." then almost no one would purchase that game.

So, in the end, game failure is different from real-life failure in a number of ways, chiefly being that there is always a "Try again" option. In real life, sometimes failure can be far, far more serious, and far more permanent.

 

[BiBunny]

My mother constantly set me up to fail for the eighteen years I lived with her. I didn't have a choice but to put up with it then, but I damn sure won't tolerate now from someone I'm in a relationship with.

 

[ultramarineblue]

I’m similar in that if my PYL says, “If you don’t pick up these one hundred marbles, using only your mouth, and deposit them in this jar in under sixty second, I’m going to whip you with a strand of licorice,” I’ll attempt the task with as much gusto and conviction as if he’d threatened to chop off a finger. Don’t know why, just how I am.

So would that be only one marble at a time or could you try for two or more? I would enjoy doing something like this. It isn't an excuse for punishment. It's fun. I definitely need more reminders to not take myself so seriously.

 

[intothewoods]

Lunch break!

This morning I was skimming through a few of the threads and there was one - I think it was the Tasking thread - in which a few pyls mentioned how much they disliked tasks that were designed to ensure failure, (and thereby require punishment).

Personally, I don't have an issue with such tasks, in fact they have been some of my favourites, which got me to wondering why, and that got me to thinking about "failure".

For me, failure is not an end result but a process. I try my best to succeed, at everything I do, but I also know and accept that this won't happen. I also love the things I learn from failure. To me, failure presents infinitely more opportunities for growth than success does.

So, curious...how do you view failure? Do you like it? Hate it? Don't care about it? How do you deal with it? And how does it factor into your BDSM life?

I think I kind of get where you're coming from on this, K. Mister Man isn't really into arbitrary tasks, but there are ongoing challenges which I have yet to complete. For example - perfect deep throat skills. Well, I'm not quite perfect yet, so each time I will fail until I'm awarded porn star of the year or something. I can always get better - I'm never going to be done with that one - and it's an ongoing challenge that I can dig.

In other areas of my life, I do hate failure. Well, let me rephrase. I have a horrible tendency to equate less than perfect with failure and then give up. In the last five or ten years, I have really worked to let that go, because without those experiences I wouldn't be learning.

 

[Keroin]

In other areas of my life, I do hate failure. Well, let me rephrase. I have a horrible tendency to equate less than perfect with failure and then give up. In the last five or ten years, I have really worked to let that go, because without those experiences I wouldn't be learning.

You know, I was beating myself up once - many moons ago - because I'd flubbed something on my first try that I felt I should have nailed. A friend and co-worker of mine said, "K, do you realize that Babe Ruth struck out more times than he hit home runs?"

I don't know if that is actually true, (if it isn't, don't tell me - ignorance is bliss), but it sure hit me and I've never forgotten those words.

 

[intothewoods]

You know, I was beating myself up once - many moons ago - because I'd flubbed something on my first try that I felt I should have nailed. A friend and co-worker of mine said, "K, do you realize that Babe Ruth struck out more times than he hit home runs?"

I don't know if that is actually true, (if it isn't, don't tell me - ignorance is bliss), but it sure hit me and I've never forgotten those words.

I often sit in front of the screen and think (about my writing), well, this will never amount to anything, so why bother? I'm getting past that, but it's a challenge.

 

[graceanne]

My mother constantly set me up to fail for the eighteen years I lived with her. I didn't have a choice but to put up with it then, but I damn sure won't tolerate now from someone I'm in a relationship with.

LOL The main difference, from what I've seen, of our mothers is mine saw a good counselor (for years) when I was a teen and is a great mom now.

 

[satindesire]

LOL The main difference, from what I've seen, of our mothers is mine saw a good counselor (for years) when I was a teen and is a great mom now.

Good Counseling can heal many sins. *nods*

 

[infinity706]

You know, I was beating myself up once - many moons ago - because I'd flubbed something on my first try that I felt I should have nailed. A friend and co-worker of mine said, "K, do you realize that Babe Ruth struck out more times than he hit home runs?"

I don't know if that is actually true, (if it isn't, don't tell me - ignorance is bliss), but it sure hit me and I've never forgotten those words.

It actually is true. Babe Ruth struck out 1330 times and hit 714 homeruns. Of course, he also racked up 2062 walks (many of which were intentional), a testament to just how much of a threat he was considered, anyway.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

A friend and co-worker of mine said, "K, do you realize that Babe Ruth struck out more times than he hit home runs?"

I don't know if that is actually true, (if it isn't, don't tell me - ignorance is bliss), but it sure hit me and I've never forgotten those words.

Almost two to one. (strikeouts to home runs)

EDIT: Infinity beat me to it.

 

[graceanne]

Good Counseling can heal many sins. *nods*

It shows to me that she truly did want to be a good mom, she just didn't have the skills; she was parenting just like she was parented. So she went and got them. The parenting skills that is. She's no where near perfect, and can still try to be controlling, but considering where she came from I think she's pretty awesome.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

It actually is true. Babe Ruth struck out 1330 times and hit 714 homeruns. Of course, he also racked up 2062 walks (many of which were intentional), a testament to just how much of a threat he was considered, anyway.

Yup. He was/is the greatest of all time.

A friend and co-worker of mine said, "K, do you realize that Babe Ruth struck out more times than he hit home runs?"

The question is a little misleading only because Babe was a slugger and sluggers typically strike out a lot.

If you insert Joe DiMaggio or Ted Williams (both keep the question true) in there then you would realize failure is just a part of life and everyone experiences it. No matter who you are.

 

[Keroin]

The question is a little misleading only because Babe was a slugger and sluggers typically strike out a lot.

If you insert Joe DiMaggio or Ted Williams (both keep the question true) in there then you would realize failure is just a part of life and everyone experiences it. No matter who you are.

The point was, essentially, that even the great ones fuck up. I liked that

 

[eastern sun]

I frequently get off-the-cuff "tasks" that I cannot possibly succeed at (like "here, hold my coffee" when my hands are over-full, I'm flustered and distracted, and he has nothing else to carry). We both find my knee-jerk attempt to do the absurd hilariously funny.

These tasks are designed to make us laugh.

 

[00Syd]

I'm getting better at looking at my failures as opportunities for growth, but it's really difficult. We don't do tasks, but if I feel like I failed at some aspect of our relationship (bad communication, emotional dumping, inability to control my emotions, etc), then I usually beat myself up about it pretty bad. But I'm getting better.

 

[Homburg]

I'm sorry, I think it's really hard to explain why this is so appealing to me. And not all the time, not every day, but occasionally. Probably everyone else's POV on this is much more sane.

I don't think it is tough to understand, nor do I think it is sane/insane. You are both more risk-tolerant, and failure-tolerant than, well, anyone else I know. After all, look what you did for a living for years.

--

Bear with me for a sec because this is going to be the vaguest possible response unless someone grasps what I'm referring to. H, remember that video that was up in...some thread a while back with all those hot girls doing some sort of agility course on some kind of foreign (I think) game show? All that concentration and focus, and they kept failing again and again, but the effort alone was hot. I don't believe it was in a BDSM context, so it's not the same as what we're discussing, but I also don't see why it couldn't have been a BDSM context. My online D in particular would be ALL. OVER. seeing me attempt something like that, making me do it, for him, cheering me on, coaching me, etc.

Oh god yes, it was that clip from Fort something or other, a French TV show, and I think that I was the one that linked it. I glossed over it many times because of the one pic in the link I found it in. Then I watched it and was mesmerised, thus I linked to it.

I really, really liked that, and am cool with that level of challenge. It's not impossible, merely extraordinarily difficult. Something like that is achievable, and failure would be an oppurtunity for growth and improvement, not a reason for punishment. As you said, were it me, I'd be there cheering and coaching, hoping for success and getting off on the effort.

Effort is a very important concept for me in my dynamic. I have said many times that I do not expect 100% success, just 100% effort. Simply put, if you try your level goddamned best and still can't quite do it, I'm not going to be an ass and hem you up. You gave it 100%. It was just beyond you. As I mentioned before, no matter how strong I get, there are always more plates out there.