Deportation without chance to plead case in court

[Bent]

A highly selective quotation I know, Bent, and I offer this only as a passing observation, but it seems to me ironic that a nation entirely founded on immigration should have such a knee-jerk reaction against immigrants.

I can't comment on your situation, but I can tell you from my knowledge of European, African and Australasian migration, that economically, where freedom of migration has been allowed, it has been beneficial, and where it has been denied, the grounds for that denial are racial/xenophobic rather than economc.

Ho hum. Just a thought.

I disagree AS....last I heard...Holland and Germany are even closing their doors to foreigners, by making it more difficult to come over, because they are being overrun by illegals.

 

[LadyG]

It's only in the last 30 or so years that Australia has had open immigration as well.

 

[Bent]

In my hometown, we have groups of them that run scams. My Ins agent and a police officer I know told me about a specific group of illegals here that try to cause you to hit them. Then they beg you not to call the police, say they will pay for damage and get your phone number. Then they start calling making demands for cash b/c they are hurt.

One of them tried this on me, but I made such a stink about it they gave up.

The kicker is that that is just a scam....there are illegals that come over here, and commit high crimes only to run back over the border and hide out in their own country til they can get more illegal documentation and come back to different parts. It happens all the damn time, I don't see how anyone could support this sort of behavior.

 

[Guest]

That is the same as saying that when someone rear ends me it is my fault for owning a car.

No, it's not the same. We really do need agricultural workers here--in a bad way. But no one from here wants to do those jobs because the working conditions are awful. The only people desperate enough to take them are illegal people. So why not offer them work visas that are good for X number of years, and only while they have a job contract with a produce company here? The bulk of people coming here are coming across from Mexico. And the bulk of the people crossing from Mexico are doing so for jobs. So why not just provide them with work visas???? We need the workers for those jobs. And it would sure save a heck of a lot of effort on the part of immigration--not having to track down and stop as many workers who come here illegally. The only reason I can think of that would explain why the gov't doesn't want to do this is because it would make the workers legal, and thus they would be able to complain about illegal working conditions and job abuses without fear of deportation. And then once they say something it would have to be looked into. And once it's looked into it would have to be fixed. Which would mean companies would have to pay them at least minimum wage, bosses couldn't steal money out of their pay, and their working environment would have to be fixed so that it's not a health hazard, and well, it's just cheaper not to have to deal with all that. I don't agree with that, certainly, but I think that's the only reason why the government doesn't want to give them access to temp. work visas.

 

[love2teaseu]

I have to say, i really agree with Bent. I don't live in CA and I have never worked for INS and I still think that there is a big problem.

I'm in freakin' OH and they are causing us problems up here.

A temp work visa is an idea that may make things more equitable. They have to pay taxes just like us and they should have to pay into whatever healthcare benefit it is that is treating them whether they get treated or not, just like us.

I pay into SS, and I know damn well, I 'll never see one red cent of it back. It is a pyramid scheme pure and simple. If they want to work here and live even if for just a bit, they should have to put up with the same crap I do.

 

[Bent]

I hate to tell you this, but if there is a need to fill jobs that u.s. citizens wont' take then it would be logical to allow workers (that is, people coming here solely to work--not to settle) to come here on work visas. That right there would take care of a lot of illegal immigration issues.

I do write my congressman. I also volunteer my time to a non profit organization which works with immigrants and migrants, and I do a fair deal of public speaking, as well as helping inviduals according to my abilities and resources. I'd love to run for political office, but that requires shit loads of money and I don't think many wealthy people would want to back me

As for how the border patrol currently works, what I know is not from working with the INS (as I have never worked with the INS) but from talking to people who have been picked up, or are in jail after having been picked up, or are concerned about being picked up. I've also taken the time to interview a few people whose job it is to look for and pick up illegal people, and found what they've said to be quite interesting.

I, too, have a family member going through the immigration process as we speak. It's been quite a few years, and he is still going through the process. Even though he came here legally and has done all the paperwork and paid all the fees correctly, he is still concerned. Why? Because of how he looks. He has been racially profiled so many times now it's scary. He gets stopped while driving because of how he looks. He gets stopped in airports, at bus counters, and even a few times going to the freaking grocery store. And when he gets stopped he shows his green card. But his green card is out of date because immigration is backed up with paperwork. So then he has to show the letter of extension, and often people are suspicious of that and doubt its authenticity. So then he ends up at some station, waiting around a half hour or more until someone can get a check on that letter. And while this goes on he's often threatened and made fun of. Naturally, I'm against this type of thing for how it affects him and people like him. But I'm also against it because it wastes a lot of time and effort on the part of people who spend their time chasing, questioning, and pushing paperwork checks on people who aren't illegal at all. The system is not working. It's highly inefficient. And one of the things I think would help this system (for everyone concerned) is if temporary work visas were available for people coming here to do agricultural labor. In fact, I think that would cut immigration's work load by a third, if not more.

Bent, I don't hate you for disagreeing with my viewpoints on this issue. I would hope you'd extend the same respect to me in that way.

I'm running out of time here, I have a meeting in an hour, and I haven't even showered yet, so if I miss something, don't think that I'm dismissing you...

First of all....they have the chance to file LEGALLY to come here. I think you are missing that part. They can use that money and come here legally to work. They choose not to...that's why they are here illegally...and that is wrong, no matter how you try to cut it.

Secondly, I don't hate you for disagreeing in the least, I think you have some way out there ideas of how things should be run, but honestly they are wrong. It's illegal activity that you support, sorry, I can't get behind that.

As for your brother in law (sorry, I skimmed so I hope I have the correct relative) it isn't about profiling, it is what it is, these people aren't inefficient because if they were, then they wouldn't care who came over....but them pulling him aside to MAKE SURE that he is here legally, tells me that they are in fact doing rather well, with the resources they have.

Granted, you may not have the means to run for office, you do however have the know how to work for a government agency, so apply...learn the laws, learn first hand how things are done...and try to bring about change that way if nothing else.

Sorry, for the harshness of my posts, I'm PMSing, and well, this is a subject that I completely disagree with but can relate to.

 

[Guest]

I disagree AS....last I heard...Holland and Germany are even closing their doors to foreigners, by making it more difficult to come over, because they are being overrun by illegals.

But here's the thing: I don't think, in our case, that we're being "overrun", since a good bulk of the illegal people who come here are working. Again, I'd say that most are agricultural workers, with the rest of that bulk working in gardening, construction, restaurants, janitorial and maid services. And it sure seems that we have a need for those job positions to be filled, because I'm sure bosses would prefer to hire citizens rather than illegals in order to avoid the chance of getting in trouble for employing illegal workers. But people here dont' want to do those jobs. There's a need for those jobs, and illegal people are filling them. I wouldn't say that's being overrun. Now, I don't know about Germany and Holland, so I can't say anything about that. But as for us, I don't think we're being overrun. Although I'm sure a lot of people feel that way because they are afraid of migrants. But then people felt that way when the Irish came, and then the Eastern Europeans, etc. There's always a new group coming here, and each time the older groups are afraid, feel threatened, etc. I think this is just another example in the pattern.

 

[Bent]

I have to say, i really agree with Bent. I don't live in CA and I have never worked for INS and I still think that there is a big problem.

I'm in freakin' OH and they are causing us problems up here.

A temp work visa is an idea that may make things more equitable. They have to pay taxes just like us and they should have to pay into whatever healthcare benefit it is that is treating them whether they get treated or not, just like us.

I pay into SS, and I know damn well, I 'll never see one red cent of it back. It is a pyramid scheme pure and simple. If they want to work here and live even if for just a bit, they should have to put up with the same crap I do.

Let me clarify a point that seems to be getting overlooked...they have the opportunity to apply for work visas, they just don't do it. They would rather come over here illegally. The ranchers themselves could sponsor their work visa, but of course, that would mean alot of money out of his pocket, but it is an option.

It seems that X sees it as it not being one, but in reality, the opportunity is there...these people just choose an easier means.

Thanks love. Gotta run now.

 

[love2teaseu]

No, it's not the same. We really do need agricultural workers here--in a bad way. But no one from here wants to do those jobs because the working conditions are awful. The only people desperate enough to take them are illegal people. So why not offer them work visas that are good for X number of years, and only while they have a job contract with a produce company here? The bulk of people coming here are coming across from Mexico. And the bulk of the people crossing from Mexico are doing so for jobs. So why not just provide them with work visas???? We need the workers for those jobs. And it would sure save a heck of a lot of effort on the part of immigration--not having to track down and stop as many workers who come here illegally. The only reason I can think of that would explain why the gov't doesn't want to do this is because it would make the workers legal, and thus they would be able to complain about illegal working conditions and job abuses without fear of deportation. And then once they say something it would have to be looked into. And once it's looked into it would have to be fixed. Which would mean companies would have to pay them at least minimum wage, bosses couldn't steal money out of their pay, and their working environment would have to be fixed so that it's not a health hazard, and well, it's just cheaper not to have to deal with all that. I don't agree with that, certainly, but I think that's the only reason why the government doesn't want to give them access to temp. work visas.

Wow, I think for that to be the case there would have to be a huge conspiracy. One too big for our inefficient govermnet to handle. Seriously, they couldn't handle something this big!!!

I mean for crying outloud, Clinton himself couldn't even keep his head stories out of the paper. What you are proposing is HUGE!

 

[love2teaseu]

But here's the thing: I don't think, in our case, that we're being "overrun", since a good bulk of the illegal people who come here are working. Again, I'd say that most are agricultural workers, with the rest of that bulk working in gardening, construction, restaurants, janitorial and maid services. And it sure seems that we have a need for those job positions to be filled, because I'm sure bosses would prefer to hire citizens rather than illegals in order to avoid the chance of getting in trouble for employing illegal workers. But people here dont' want to do those jobs. There's a need for those jobs, and illegal people are filling them. I wouldn't say that's being overrun. Now, I don't know about Germany and Holland, so I can't say anything about that. But as for us, I don't think we're being overrun. Although I'm sure a lot of people feel that way because they are afraid of migrants. But then people felt that way when the Irish came, and then the Eastern Europeans, etc. There's always a new group coming here, and each time the older groups are afraid, feel threatened, etc. I think this is just another example in the pattern.

You mentioned something about construction that made me feel as though I needed to post on that issue. And it is an issue all by itself. Illegals doing construction, that is.

My hubby is 4th gen electrician. his family had a business in Miami for the first 3 gens. They got run out of business by contractors that used illegal immigrants. Electric here is TOTALLY different than other countries, we have a lot higher standards. But inspectors are paid off. You can make a much bigger profit running a company that pays illegals five dollars an hour for doing work that should be done by educated tradesmen for more like twenty five an hour. Even with the pay off, they are still raking it in.

The enormity of this problem really came to light after hurricane hugo and so many houses were destroyed by the storm. The flat out facts were that these homes built by illegals weren't up to code. Plain and simple. And, since that area is so saturated with Cubans they back each other up and there were many, many payoffs.

The illegals and illegal activities of that Cuban community is why so many people lost there homes and why our ins rates have gone up so much.

 

[Guest]

I'm running out of time here, I have a meeting in an hour, and I haven't even showered yet, so if I miss something, don't think that I'm dismissing you...

First of all....they have the chance to file LEGALLY to come here. I think you are missing that part. They can use that money and come here legally to work. They choose not to...that's why they are here illegally...and that is wrong, no matter how you try to cut it.

Secondly, I don't hate you for disagreeing in the least, I think you have some way out there ideas of how things should be run, but honestly they are wrong. It's illegal activity that you support, sorry, I can't get behind that.

As for your brother in law (sorry, I skimmed so I hope I have the correct relative) it isn't about profiling, it is what it is, these people aren't inefficient because if they were, then they wouldn't care who came over....but them pulling him aside to MAKE SURE that he is here legally, tells me that they are in fact doing rather well, with the resources they have.

Granted, you may not have the means to run for office, you do however have the know how to work for a government agency, so apply...learn the laws, learn first hand how things are done...and try to bring about change that way if nothing else.

Sorry, for the harshness of my posts, I'm PMSing, and well, this is a subject that I completely disagree with but can relate to.

No, it's not my brother in law. But that's okay. It really doesn't matter who it is.

I know you believe they have a chance to file legally to come here, but that is very difficult for the majority of migrants. I'll use Mexico as an example, since that's the only country with which I'm very familiar regarding this matter.

Most Mexicans who come here for the purpose of work are from poor, rural areas in Mexico. As such, they don't have bank accounts (or even banks anywhere near them). They also are coming because they're desperately poor and need to support their families. So they don't have much money. In order for them to come here legally--let's say in this example on a tourist visa, they have to have proof of a bank account with a minimum amount of money in it (a problem because they don't have a bank, and even if they did they wouldn't be able to open an account), they have to show copies of work contracts with employers in Mexico (which they dont have because in rural areas bosses hire labor on a day to day basis and don't provide contracts), and they would have to have a form of I.D. other than their usual tarjeta credencial , which is also a problem for them. So even if they have a few thousand U.S. dollars, they still can't just pay a few fees and enter the U.S. legally. They need other things that they cannot get access to. Believe me, many of the Mexicans I talk to would much rather come here legally than pay a shit load of money to a coyote and risk their lives and then live in fear here. But they dont' have any other way, and they need the employment here.

If they wanted to come on a work visa, they'd have to have proof of having a work contract with someone in the U.S. BEFORE crossing the border. And that is VERY hard to get when hardly any representatives of the produce companies send contractors across the border. They usually sign contracts AFTER they cross, but not before. And because they sign AFTER, that isn't considered legal. Even if they could get the work contracts before crossing the border and show that as proof that they're coming only for employment and will then leave, they still have to show proof of a bank account with "sufficient funds" (I've been told this is to ensure they won't be tempted to do anything illegal once in the country), papers that a boss fills out and submits on their behalf, the necessary money for the fees associated with all that paperwork, and an ADDRESS. This last part sound silly, but the majority of people living in rural Mexico don't have a house address. They live off un-named dirt roads, in houses with no numbers. They get mail only because it goes to the nearest post office, and is addressed to "Person X, care of person Y in town X, via town Z, state of ___. I know this because I lived in rural Mexico in a town where almost all the men and a few of the women migrate to the U.S. They don't have addresses, they don't have phone numbers, etc. So how are they going to get approved to come here? They can't. Now if they were upper class, and from the city, I'm sure it would not be a problem. But then those people wouldn't be coming to do agricultural work anyway, so that's a moot point.

 

[Guest]

Let me clarify a point that seems to be getting overlooked...they have the opportunity to apply for work visas, they just don't do it. They would rather come over here illegally. The ranchers themselves could sponsor their work visa, but of course, that would mean alot of money out of his pocket, but it is an option.

It seems that X sees it as it not being one, but in reality, the opportunity is there...these people just choose an easier means.

Thanks love. Gotta run now.

No, Bent. Coming here illegal is NOT easy. A lot of people die in the process, and the rest suffer immensely. Believe me, if they could come legally they certainly would.

 

[Guest]

You mentioned something about construction that made me feel as though I needed to post on that issue. And it is an issue all by itself. Illegals doing construction, that is.

My hubby is 4th gen electrician. his family had a business in Miami for the first 3 gens. They got run out of business by contractors that used illegal immigrants. Electric here is TOTALLY different than other countries, we have a lot higher standards. But inspectors are paid off. You can make a much bigger profit running a company that pays illegals five dollars an hour for doing work that should be done by educated tradesmen for more like twenty five an hour. Even with the pay off, they are still raking it in.

The enormity of this problem really came to light after hurricane hugo and so many houses were destroyed by the storm. The flat out facts were that these homes built by illegals weren't up to code. Plain and simple. And, since that area is so saturated with Cubans they back each other up and there were many, many payoffs.

The illegals and illegal activities of that Cuban community is why so many people lost there homes and why our ins rates have gone up so much.

The fault for this would rest with the employers who hire workers that don't have the necessary skills and training to do a proper job of wiring. I wouldn't blame the workers themselves. After all, someone is giving them a job, so of course they're going to take it. But I would be concerned about the bosses who are hiring them. As bosses they should be making sure the workers can do the job right. I'm assuming here that the employers are legal, and are capitalizing off of the exploitation of illegal workers (exploitation because they are paying them substandard wages). They should either bring them in on work visas and (of course) make sure they are able to do the job right, or not hire them.

 

[love2teaseu]

The fault for this would rest with the employers who hire workers that don't have the necessary skills and training to do a proper job of wiring. I wouldn't blame the workers themselves. After all, someone is giving them a job, so of course they're going to take it. But I would be concerned about the bosses who are hiring them. As bosses they should be making sure the workers can do the job right. I'm assuming here that the employers are legal, and are capitalizing off of the exploitation of illegal workers (exploitation because they are paying them substandard wages). They should either bring them in on work visas and (of course) make sure they are able to do the job right, or not hire them.

I think you are probably right. At least I hope .

Being a frequent visitor as Hubby's family is from Miami, so I pay attention a little more when there is something on the news. It seems like this city is particularly corrupt in this specific area. I'm sure there are plenty who would say there are other's, I am only familiar with this.

You say I shouldn't blame the workers, then why did we blame that one doctor who posed as a plastic surgeon, operated on people and later disfigured them. He even killed a couple and then tried to kill his wife. ( I'm a true crime buff, this is an Anne Rule book) Why was he held accountable instead of his patients that went to him. Couldn't you argue that it is one's own responsibility to investigate their doc before going to him. I think the guy I am talking about had multiple offenses in other states. All they would have had to do is Google him and they would have found out who he was, or check on his licensing. He didn't eve have a license.

 

[o~Cherries~o]

I live in Southern California. I see first hand what happens with illegals.

I remember when bussing started when I was in Jr. High School. The graffiti and crime in our neighborhoods rose dramatically. Come to find out, a very large percentage of those that were bussed in to our schools at that time, were indeed illegals. People smuggled themselves over and sent the kids to our schools for free education. It's happening even now. When the schools in the southern most parts of California got full because of these illegals, they bussed them further north.

I had a neighbor as I was growing up that was from Mexico. He had 7 children. He was here on a sponsorship. He brought over, in the time that I knew them, at least 40 friends and relatives. I have no idea whether or not it was done illegally. I will only have to assume so since it was so very often and in droves.

Recently they wanted illegals to have driver’s licenses. Just hand 'em over and let 'em hog the road. This isn't fair to ANYONE. And I don't need to go into explanations as to why it isn't fair. You should know. Also, considering how many would probably NOT carry auto insurance, the idea ridiculous.

I know members of the San Diego PD and members of the Border Patrol. What they deal with is unbelievable. They must resort in some cases to risking their lives for the lives of illegals. People who for the most part could care less about the welfare of "La Policia" or "La Migra".

They don't round 'em up and toss 'em over the fence. Although I know sometimes they wish they could. The amount of paperwork, time and proof they need to actually do the job right and keep them OUT of the country is enormous and sometimes overwhelming.

I have been to Mexico many times. It's not the nicest or cleanest. The further deep you get the better it seems. However, poverty is high and patriotism is low. EXCEPT, when they come here, then they fly the flag of the very country they left because it wouldn't provide for them. They don't even like this country that much. Just what they can get from it for free. "Viva Mexico!" you hear them say, but they won't go back no matter what. In all honesty, if you lived here, you'd understand that most of them won't be satisfied until all of California is Hispanic. I am not prejudiced in any way, but it's frightening to know that I may soon have to move because I won't even be able to use my native language to converse with anyone.

Part of my family came here from Europe. They went thru Ellis Island and did everything by the book. It made my family proud to know they could come here and contribute to the country that ALLOWED them the PRIVELDGE to be here and to make something of themselves. They didn't live off the fat of the land for free. They themselves worked the land.

I carry my ID because it shows people who I am. If that's to buy a bottle of wine or write a check or show to the SDPD or the Border Agents while I am crossing, I feel it's my DUTY to provide that to them. Because it's my very great HONOR and PRIVELEDGE to live here. My family earned it. They loved/love this country. I love it too. I love California and would like to see it stay part of the US. Not become a dumping ground for the illegals because someone has an agenda or a bleeding heart.

Do it legally or stay where you are.


*climbs off her soapbox and quietly hands out lil American Flags*

 

[love2teaseu]

*climbs off her soapbox and quietly hands out lil American Flags*

Can I have one?!

That must be really scary living there.

I sure don't like visiting Miami, I don't think you could get me to consider going to CA. The people in Miami are not very friendly, they really hate white people! One told me I needed to learn to speak Spanish. They were really nasty about it too. WTF I am tourist.

 

[Bent]

Do it legally or stay where you are.


*climbs off her soapbox and quietly hands out lil American Flags*

That entire post was VERY well said. *applause*

 

[o~Cherries~o]

Can I have one?!

That must be really scary living there.

I sure don't like visiting Miami, I don't think you could get me to consider going to CA. The people in Miami are not very friendly, they really hate white people! One told me I needed to learn to speak Spanish. They were really nasty about it too. WTF I am tourist.

It's not terribly scary. My area is still not crime city but the worry is there for the future. People are very nice here in California.
We love the state and we want it to be safe and inviting. I have heard Miami is pretty scary at night.

Here you go!! Wave on! http://www.homestead.com/best2win/files/FLAGS1.jpg

 

[o~Cherries~o]

That entire post was VERY well said. *applause*

Thank you very much, Bent. I appreciate that!

I feel the same of your posts here as well.

 

[Bent]

What Cherries mentioned about English becoming the second language...anyone that drives through California can see by all the SPANISH FUCKING BILLBOARDS that this is absolutely true! When I go to the store, I get spoken to IN SPANISH...what the fuck...you should see me go off...it's fucking hilarious to see their jaws drop.

*end moment*

 

[love2teaseu]

It's not terribly scary. My area is still not crime city but the worry is there for the future. People are very nice here in California.
We love the state and we want it to be safe and inviting. I have heard Miami is pretty scary at night.

You are telling me!

I am afraid to drive there. Hell, I am afraid to ride in the car, I put on my seat belt and cover my eyes and hope for the best.

Hey Bent's back, how was your meeting?

 

[Bent]

You are telling me!

I am afraid to drive there. Hell, I am afraid to ride in the car, I put on my seat belt and cover my eyes and hope for the best.

Hey Bent's back, how was your meeting?

It was a pathetic little half meeting. It's one of those weeks where no one wants to do anything.

 

[rjohns86us]

No, you are an example of why we shouldn't open our borders to every foreigner who wants to come in..

You cannot use what Europeans did to us to justify what the U.S. is doing to migrants now. That is fallacious. The colonizers of this region did nothing but try to kill us, push us out, and then isolate us (to put it briefly and nicely). Now this same colonial mindset is bent on exerting the same type of xenophobic power over other groups of people. Europeans and later U.S. citizens screwed the Native Americans, and now the U.S. is trying to screw everyone else, too. How on earth can you even think of using the Native Americans as an example in favor of xenophobic police state policies? If anything, we're an example AGAINST it.

 

[bg23]

No, you are an example of why we shouldn't open our borders to every foreigner who wants to come in..

Somehow you make the term "foreigner" sound derogatory. How is this, I wonder?

 

[rjohns86us]

Actually it is the total opposite...The europeans came in here, too over your lands and pushed you out....we are trying to prevent the same thing from happening to our country again....apparently you did not learn much from having foreigners come in and do those things to your people

You cannot use what Europeans did to us to justify what the U.S. is doing to migrants now. That is fallacious. The colonizers of this region did nothing but try to kill us, push us out, and then isolate us (to put it briefly and nicely). Now this same colonial mindset is bent on exerting the same type of xenophobic power over other groups of people. Europeans and later U.S. citizens screwed the Native Americans, and now the U.S. is trying to screw everyone else, too. How on earth can you even think of using the Native Americans as an example in favor of xenophobic police state policies? If anything, we're an example AGAINST it.