Defining Love

[wicked woman]

Originally posted by Shoshisexy
I think something we have but barely touched upon is the refusal or rejection of love. I think that effects a person far more than giving it and having it refused...I think rejecting love causes intense pain in the person doing it. I also believe they only do it out of intense pain themselves.

So there it is.



Shoshana

I can only speak for my personal experience but I would have to agree with you that it was intense pain that had me refuse/reject love. We had tried our best to make our marriage work.....gone to counselling....but finally it was my decision to cut my losses and run (although my now ex agreed)...it was an amicable divorce. I thought I had mourned the loss of our marriage and all the hopes and dreams I had for it....and dealt with that loss. I rationalized why I wasn't interested in finding someone to love...I won't bore you with the logic...doesn't matter...just suffice it to say my children were very young.

I went beyond rejecting/refusing love....I made sure to cut men off so they wouldn't even offer...God I was good

But after way too many years I finally realized that my reasons (although at the time I truly believed them) were just a rationalization. The truth was I was just so hurt by the failure of my marriage that I didn't dare risk opening my heart to being hurt again. My life wasn't completely loveless...I had my family and friends...but not that all important SO.

I will always be thankful to the man that slowly and patiently helped me open my heart again. I'd come to realize the huge sacrifice I'd made, but it was his heart that opened mine. Although our relationship faltered and we couldn't take it where we had hoped, there will always be love in my heart for him and his priceless gift to me...the ability to open my heart and risk being hurt...even if in the end he caused me pain.

I survived...and I've sworn never to close myself off again...but yes I agree with you Shoshisexy, the original cause to closing myself off from love was out of my intense pain...that it only caused more pain...and that it is much worse than offering your love and having it rejected.

Great point you brought up.

 

[midwestyankee]

I on some points agree michael....I also agree that the word love is over used, which in some cases can lead to people being hurt and feeling a lose. I find the concept of love very hard to handle on Lit ....except in a few cases where people actually have met and married because of true love. I also believe that people aren't honest in most parts of their lives here....and actually who they are.....that in it's self is sad and can also lead to some people being hurt through deception. I know as well as you that we can't change these things....we can only change ourselves.

Honesty. You captured such an essential element here, I think. There is the honesty of sharing what is in your deepest heart, of sharing your dreams and fears. All that takes some courage (especially for guys, apparently) and maybe that's why it happens somewhat rarely.

There is also the honesty of listening and giving someone your whole attention. Attending to someone with your whole being is hard work. That's why it is so difficult to maintain two strong loves. It takes an extraordinary amount of psychic energy to give honestly and totally to two different people.

 

[midwestyankee]

okay guys, i have to ask............why is it wrong to express love for someone? what is wrong with telling someone that they have reached deep in your heart and left a mark? what is wrong with expressing a feeling that in truth is not scary at all?

i agree love and lust and infatuation are not the same. but i don't agree that expressing your true feelings for someone is wrong. there are many lonely people in the world and they have done nothing wrong to be lonely, except sell themselves short.

i also think that it is okay if i have deep feelings for someone and they don't feel the same..........we all are not the same person. be greatful for what they have given you, cherish it and learn from it.

opening your heart is a glorious thing anytime.

Mayi, you touched on something deeply felt here, and I applaud you. If you have gotten the message anywhere that it is wrong to express love, then that message has been coming from an unworthy source.

I also agree with the idea that it's okay to have deep feelings for someone that are not returned. And yes, we should be grateful for what our beloveds can give us for it is the sweat of their souls that we accept with thanks.

Originally posted by peteslaw2
nothin rong with that, mayi, u got it right

Sir, I do believe I agree with you wholeheartedly here. She hit it on the nose.

 

[midwestyankee]

I can only speak for my personal experience but I would have to agree with you that it was intense pain that had me refuse/reject love. We had tried our best to make our marriage work.....gone to counselling....but finally it was my decision to cut my losses and run (although my now ex agreed)...it was an amicable divorce. I thought I had mourned the loss of our marriage and all the hopes and dreams I had for it....and dealt with that loss. I rationalized why I wasn't interested in finding someone to love...I won't bore you with the logic...doesn't matter...just suffice it to say my children were very young.

I went beyond rejecting/refusing love....I made sure to cut men off so they wouldn't even offer...God I was good

But after way too many years I finally realized that my reasons (although at the time I truly believed them) were just a rationalization. The truth was I was just so hurt by the failure of my marriage that I didn't dare risk opening my heart to being hurt again. My life wasn't completely loveless...I had my family and friends...but not that all important SO.

I will always be thankful to the man that slowly and patiently helped me open my heart again. I'd come to realize the huge sacrifice I'd made, but it was his heart that opened mine. Although our relationship faltered and we couldn't take it where we had hoped, there will always be love in my heart for him and his priceless gift to me...the ability to open my heart and risk being hurt...even if in the end he caused me pain.

I survived...and I've sworn never to close myself off again...but yes I agree with you Shoshisexy, the original cause to closing myself off from love was out of my intense pain...that it only caused more pain...and that it is much worse than offering your love and having it rejected.

Great point you brought up.

WW, once again you have helped us see an important truth. More than one, actually. I'd like to comment on a couple of your points.

First, you mentioned not daring to risk severe pain by opening your heart again. Well put. Once you realize you love someone, you have already opened yourself to that risk. But it becomes a risk worth taking because without the risk there is not enough openness for love. So with the risk you may have or lose everything, but without the risk, you are nothing.

It is a gift of immeasurable worth when someone helps you re-open your heart. To me it seems as if such a person has returned sight to the blind, given hearing to the deaf, shown a bounty to the hungry. It is an act of grace, from where we may never know.

 

[mayi]

MW, i think you misread the statement. my questions were from reading the posts by EM studdog and ammo........they were saying the word love is over used...........it is only over used when they do not understand the context in-which it was being used. how can they understand much that happens on lit when most of it happens behind the scenes. we really have no right to judge others by our standards when we are not 100% sure what is going on...........but then i would not tell someone i love them unless i had a more personal connection with them then through an internet BB.

 

[midwestyankee]

MW, i think you misread the statement. my questions were from reading the posts by EM studdog and ammo........they were saying the word love is over used...........it is only over used when they do not understand the context in-which it was being used. how can they understand much that happens on lit when most of it happens behind the scenes. we really have no right to judge others by our standards when we are not 100% sure what is going on...........but then i would not tell someone i love them unless i had a more personal connection with them then through an internet BB.

Mayi, thanks for taking the time to read my reply and offer your correction. You're absolutely right, again, that we never know all of the behind-the-scenes activities on lit and that happen elsewhere that are occasioned by people meeting on lit. Who is to judge? No one is fit to judge another's motives.

Still, I think it's fair to say that many people use the word love rather more loosely than you do (or I, for that matter) and that may be what's behind the postings you mentioned.

Others though, are no doubt expressing a strong love in milder terms for their own reasons. And still others, some who have posted to this thread I am certain, make their love public through their postings and are fully sincere in it. I can only stand in awe when the miracle of love strikes nearby.

 

[wicked woman]

Originally posted by midwestyankee
<...>

It is a gift of immeasurable worth when someone helps you re-open your heart. To me it seems as if such a person has returned sight to the blind, given hearing to the deaf, shown a bounty to the hungry. It is an act of grace, from where we may never know.

I agree completely. I have a best friend who has never been where I was....so all she sees is the hurt from my failed relationship with him and as a very good friend of mine let's just say she's not too pleased with him. But she hasn't walked in my shoes....she doesn't understand the immense gift he gave me and how I will be eternally grateful....even for the pain...because it showed I could survive and keep my heart open...that I'd learned my lesson.

 

[midwestyankee]

I agree completely. I have a best friend who has never been where I was....so all she sees is the hurt from my failed relationship with him and as a very good friend of mine let's just say she's not too pleased with him. But she hasn't walked in my shoes....she doesn't understand the immense gift he gave me and how I will be eternally grateful....even for the pain...because it showed I could survive and keep my heart open...that I'd learned my lesson.

I suspect you see that it is a pain worth bearing because you know its source.

We all have to face up to one simple fact: life is hard. It is full of pain and much of the "suffering" that people endure is actually generated by trying to avoid pain in the first place. We isolate ourselves to avoid feeling the pain of potential rejection, and then feel the pain of loneliness and reduced self-worth.

It is in facing our fears, accepting our burdens, and taking on our pain that we grow. And without growth, love would be impossible.

 

[STUDDOG]

Just a point to ponder please....and no one take offense please.
In saying we can give our love without consequences may be hard to handle in my mind....what if the person you feel you love and expressing love to is married and thier marriage becomes less because of you..what if the person they are married to finds where you been expressing love to them and that they really never intended or thought it would go farther with the relationship than Lit pages.....
I personally find that I have guilt from that....in my case I do love someone, but my life will not allow it to go into a real life relationship....and no....not because I'm married....I'm not...because of things I can't control in my life at this point. I feel that people should look long and hard at saying they love someone....it could lead to many things....including divorce and broken hearts.

Mayi...I completely agree with you if the love from both parties is not already committed in marriage.....I can not judge people....I have no right and never intended too....I only say that we can cause alot of harm from the words ~love~.... we on Lit can act responsible to ourselves and to families...and some will say it's a porn site...and I say that's great but don't hurt people's lives with
empty promises.

I said enough......

 

[TantaLiza]

I also agree on the over usage of "love"... loosely just barely scratches the surface!! Yes, it's true we are on the outside looking in, not seeing the whole picture, but one can also observe the many "flings/loves" that occur with the same person over and over again!! Loosely stated, that person definitely has a different idea of love than myself.... of this I have been privy to over the last two years!!!

I'm not trying to make light of people meeting the "love of their life"... if it's true then great!! If it continually happens, then it makes one think maybe their's is an addiction to that lust/love fix in the beginnin of a relationship. All the more power to them but I'm not one to be able to give myself to that deep emotion unless it's experienced over time and in person... learned that way the hard way!!!

Anyway... still enjoying the debate of sorts...

 

[TantaLiza]

Just a point to ponder please....and no one take offense please.
In saying we can give our love without consequences may be hard to handle in my mind....what if the person you feel you love and expressing love to is married and thier marriage becomes less because of you..what if the person they are married to finds where you been expressing love to them and that they really never intended or thought it would go farther with the relationship than Lit pages.....
I personally find that I have guilt from that....in my case I do love someone, but my life will not allow it to go into a real life relationship....and no....not because I'm married....I'm not...because of things I can't control in my life at this point. I feel that people should look long and hard at saying they love someone....it could lead to many things....including divorce and broken hearts.

Mayi...I completely agree with you if the love from both parties is not already committed in marriage.....I can not judge people....I have no right and never intended too....I only say that we can cause alot of harm from the words ~love~.... we on Lit can act responsible to ourselves and to families...and some will say it's a porn site...and I say that's great but don't hurt people's lives with
empty promises.

I said enough......

I'm in total agreement with you, STUDDOG!

The things I've witnessed and heard over the last two years is testament to your words...

 

[midwestyankee]

Just a point to ponder please....and no one take offense please.
In saying we can give our love without consequences may be hard to handle in my mind....what if the person you feel you love and expressing love to is married and thier marriage becomes less because of you..what if the person they are married to finds where you been expressing love to them and that they really never intended or thought it would go farther with the relationship than Lit pages.....
I personally find that I have guilt from that....in my case I do love someone, but my life will not allow it to go into a real life relationship....and no....not because I'm married....I'm not...because of things I can't control in my life at this point. I feel that people should look long and hard at saying they love someone....it could lead to many things....including divorce and broken hearts.

Mayi...I completely agree with you if the love from both parties is not already committed in marriage.....I can not judge people....I have no right and never intended too....I only say that we can cause alot of harm from the words ~love~.... we on Lit can act responsible to ourselves and to families...and some will say it's a porn site...and I say that's great but don't hurt people's lives with
empty promises.

I said enough......

I don't know if it's possible to give love without consequences, so I have to agree fully with you. And I am with you in hoping that no one takes any offense here, but you raise a very important point, one I would love to see discussed further.

So this raises the question that I think some of us may have danced around up to now: what about the quality of love that is experienced entirely online, that is without physical contact?

I'm sure numerous people who connect through Lit feel they love each other and yet they have never met.

What do readers here think? If it is possible to love without meeting someone, what is the quality of that love?

 

[midwestyankee]

I also agree on the over usage of "love"... loosely just barely scratches the surface!! Yes, it's true we are on the outside looking in, not seeing the whole picture, but one can also observe the many "flings/loves" that occur with the same person over and over again!! Loosely stated, that person definitely has a different idea of love than myself.... of this I have been privy to over the last two years!!!

I'm not trying to make light of people meeting the "love of their life"... if it's true then great!! If it continually happens, then it makes one think maybe their's is an addiction to that lust/love fix in the beginnin of a relationship. All the more power to them but I'm not one to be able to give myself to that deep emotion unless it's experienced over time and in person... learned that way the hard way!!!

Anyway... still enjoying the debate of sorts...

How true. Nothing like a little keyboard infatuation to keep an addiction fed.

Thanks for stopping by again, Liza.

 

[mayi]

Just a point to ponder please....and no one take offense please.
In saying we can give our love without consequences may be hard to handle in my mind....what if the person you feel you love and expressing love to is married and thier marriage becomes less because of you..what if the person they are married to finds where you been expressing love to them and that they really never intended or thought it would go farther with the relationship than Lit pages.....
I personally find that I have guilt from that....in my case I do love someone, but my life will not allow it to go into a real life relationship....and no....not because I'm married....I'm not...because of things I can't control in my life at this point. I feel that people should look long and hard at saying they love someone....it could lead to many things....including divorce and broken hearts.

Mayi...I completely agree with you if the love from both parties is not already committed in marriage.....I can not judge people....I have no right and never intended too....I only say that we can cause alot of harm from the words ~love~.... we on Lit can act responsible to ourselves and to families...and some will say it's a porn site...and I say that's great but don't hurt people's lives with
empty promises.

I said enough......

well said studdog............but there is a couple of people on lit that i have said it openly and will say it openly anytime......that i love. it is not the kind of love that will make me leave my marriage. although i am attracted to these people, i am not going to leave the man i married to be with them. they are very dear friends, ones that i trust more then people i see everyday. they have earned my trust and my love by being themselves and for standing by me through many trials.

giving your love and having them accept it puts a friendship/relationship on a level that very few make. these people in my mind deserve that level. i know all the 'games' that get played here, i don't agree with them and will walk away from them. i come here for fun and entertainment. i do not come here looking for love, sex or someone new. i have seen the good side and the bad side...........i only hope that the ones who get hurt do not stop giving.

 

[STUDDOG]

well said studdog............but there is a couple of people on lit that i have said it openly and will say it openly anytime......that i love. it is not the kind of love that will make me leave my marriage. although i am attracted to these people, i am not going to leave the man i married to be with them. they are very dear friends, ones that i trust more then people i see everyday. they have earned my trust and my love by being themselves and for standing by me through many trials.

giving your love and having them accept it puts a friendship/relationship on a level that very few make. these people in my mind deserve that level. i know all the 'games' that get played here, i don't agree with them and will walk away from them. i come here for fun and entertainment. i do not come here looking for love, sex or someone new. i have seen the good side and the bad side...........i only hope that the ones who get hurt do not stop giving.

Also well said my friend....and in that context...love is beautiful

 

[midwestyankee]

well said studdog............but there is a couple of people on lit that i have said it openly and will say it openly anytime......that i love. it is not the kind of love that will make me leave my marriage. although i am attracted to these people, i am not going to leave the man i married to be with them. they are very dear friends, ones that i trust more then people i see everyday. they have earned my trust and my love by being themselves and for standing by me through many trials.

giving your love and having them accept it puts a friendship/relationship on a level that very few make. these people in my mind deserve that level. i know all the 'games' that get played here, i don't agree with them and will walk away from them. i come here for fun and entertainment. i do not come here looking for love, sex or someone new. i have seen the good side and the bad side...........i only hope that the ones who get hurt do not stop giving.

Mayi, you managed to say more clearly here something I have been trying to get across with several postings: that love need not be exclusive, that it can exist between two who are not physical lovers, and that it is a heartfelt experience worthy of the word.

 

[TantaLiza]

I think an online love can occur in the fact that one can fall in love with a person's mind and thoughts.... this love, however cannot carry over into real life until it is a face to face experience. Of this, I'm sure....

As stated before, once this person was in my everyday real life, I had a true understanding of his actions and daily activities to base the whole relationship on. Therefore, when he showed his true colors, I realized what a fool I'd been.

I grew and learned a lot but I will forever have a hard time believing that I'm "in love" online.... it will have to be a daily interaction to cinch a deal in that dept again!!

Once burned, twice shy....

 

[midwestyankee]

I think an online love can occur in the fact that one can fall in love with a person's mind and thoughts.... this love, however cannot carry over into real life until it is a face to face experience. Of this, I'm sure....

As stated before, once this person was in my everyday real life, I had a true understanding of his actions and daily activities to base the whole relationship on. Therefore, when he showed his true colors, I realized what a fool I'd been.

I grew and learned a lot but I will forever have a hard time believing that I'm "in love" online.... it will have to be a daily interaction to cinch a deal in that dept again!!

Once burned, twice shy....

Well said, Liza. It is only in our actions that we tell who we really are.

I can imagine that it is very easy to fall in love with the person you think you know through online postings, PMs, IM talks, and the like. But so much of written communication occurs in the reader's mind that we don't really know the other person until we meet.

If we're lucky, meeting that person confirms what we believed about him or her, and a wonderful love can ensue. If not, then sad stories like yours are inevitable.

It often comes down to honesty, doesn't it?

 

[mayi]

I think an online love can occur in the fact that one can fall in love with a person's mind and thoughts.... this love, however cannot carry over into real life until it is a face to face experience. Of this, I'm sure....

As stated before, once this person was in my everyday real life, I had a true understanding of his actions and daily activities to base the whole relationship on. Therefore, when he showed his true colors, I realized what a fool I'd been.

I grew and learned a lot but I will forever have a hard time believing that I'm "in love" online.... it will have to be a daily interaction to cinch a deal in that dept again!!

Once burned, twice shy....

that lisa is the lesson we all must learn by ourselves. you will never know someone until you are around them in person, yet even then they can still tell lies. i know the pain you are feeling, but if you had not had that experience you would not have a better understanding of what you need.............love like life is an ever changing goal, it grows as we grow with a special person, or without. never think yourself a fool, learn, grow, understand and try again. just never give-up.

 

[TantaLiza]

Well said, Liza. It is only in our actions that we tell who we really are.

I can imagine that it is very easy to fall in love with the person you think you know through online postings, PMs, IM talks, and the like. But so much of written communication occurs in the reader's mind that we don't really know the other person until we meet.

If we're lucky, meeting that person confirms what we believed about him or her, and a wonderful love can ensue. If not, then sad stories like yours are inevitable.

It often comes down to honesty, doesn't it?

Ah yes... that key word in my life.... HONESTY!!! I give it and demand it in return... once broken, no turnin back!! I have no room for lies or deceit in my life!!

 

[TantaLiza]

that lisa is the lesson we all must learn by ourselves. you will never know someone until you are around them in person, yet even then they can still tell lies. i know the pain you are feeling, but if you had not had that experience you would not have a better understanding of what you need.............love like life is an ever changing goal, it grows as we grow with a special person, or without. never think yourself a fool, learn, grow, understand and try again. just never give-up.

Thank you, mayi for your understanding....

As it's been close to two years now, the hurt is naught but a fleeting memory and a full fledged lesson well learned!! My foolishness has subsided and I have grown in so many ways... I will forever have that glowing ember waiting to be fanned into a forest fire... ~smile~

 

[STUDDOG]

Well said, Liza. It is only in our actions that we tell who we really are.

I can imagine that it is very easy to fall in love with the person you think you know through online postings, PMs, IM talks, and the like. But so much of written communication occurs in the reader's mind that we don't really know the other person until we meet.

If we're lucky, meeting that person confirms what we believed about him or her, and a wonderful love can ensue. If not, then sad stories like yours are inevitable.

It often comes down to honesty, doesn't it?

"I can imagine that it is very easy to fall in love with the person you think you know through online postings, PMs, IM talks, and the like. But so much of written communication occurs in the reader's mind that we don't really know the other person until we meet"

That is so well said my friend........and has lead to many broken hearts......

 

[Ammo44]

I would be remiss in not saying something truthfully.......I have truly fallen in love with a person I chat with regularly. Yes...love in the true sense, not cyber bullshit or empty typed words with lies behind them. She has enriched my life in many ways and we've learned new things about ourselves...good and bad.....She has the same passion for me as I do for her , yet we are own people....and that is a good thing. The dynamics we have is incredible, as is the fire and strength of our relationship .

I see all the definitions, thoughts, and deep delving on this thread about love.........feelings......acts.....heartbreak, etc.

We are in ........LOVE

 

[Ammo44]

I would be remiss in not saying something truthfully.......I have truly fallen in love with a person I chat with regularly. Yes...love in the true sense, not cyber bullshit or empty typed words with lies behind them. She has enriched my life in many ways and we've learned new things about ourselves...good and bad.....She has the same passion for me as I do for her , yet we are own people....and that is a good thing. The dynamics we have is incredible, as is the fire and strength of our relationship .

I see all the definitions, thoughts, and deep delving on this thread about love.........feelings......acts.....heartbreak, etc.

We are in ........LOVE

I don't know if this is appropriate for this thread, but it had to be said...........

 

[Ammo44]

"I can imagine that it is very easy to fall in love with the person you think you know through online postings, PMs, IM talks, and the like. But so much of written communication occurs in the reader's mind that we don't really know the other person until we meet"

That is so well said my friend........and has lead to many broken hearts......

Well, and some strong relationships too.......good with the bad if you will.