Defining Love

[Cathleen]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Living vs. Existing

Kate n spence were different because he was married she wasnt..and both had the means to carry on a long term relationship..all that makes for an easy affair...but there was an age factor..that also made it easier ..he would not have been so free to persue it if his wife was kates age..the factors were right for that 3 some....
I think when one is involved in an affair you are getting the better of that person in a way..you see only the romance and none of the everyday stresses life has to offer...you get the dinners,the presents,the good...its like being on a first date in many ways forever...

Getting the best of someone is an interesting phrase.

I think that is the big draw for people - that they think they can have all the good stuff in a relationship - and only the good stuff. It is a false appearance of the people involved. I don't see that as real love, as neither person is behaving as themselves. I think if that is the case then the people involved would be using one another to promote a self made fairy tale.

Life is difficult, relationships are hard and take work - there is good and bad in all of us. So when in a committed relationship you accept it all.

If someone wants to experience only roses and romance then the affair mode would be the way to have that but I don't think that is love of the person - it is a love of the person you are when you're with them - and they with you - but it isn't a true picture of real life.

If life were different.........

 

[dirtywhiteboy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Living vs. Existing

I can understand where your point comes in but how does swinging relate to what DLL defines as an "affair of the heart"?

To me, monogomy is more about loving one person moreso than having sex with one person.

How do you connect the two?

You mean I was supposed to have a point?.....lol

OK....I THINK my point is that an affair of the heart is still an affair and IMO it violates the core principle of love/committment..... if it is done so without the knowledge and consent of their monagamous partner.

I'm not judging affairs...even saying some people actually prefer lifestyles which include multiple love affairs.....i.e. polymory. As radical as polymory may seem, IMO it is much more preferable than to be in a monagamous relationship.... with someone who chooses not to fulfill their commitment to be monagamous by having an affair of the heart or whatever. IMO, love means you fulfill your committment to each other......WHATEVER that committment is. You can't change your mind later. That is not love to me.

I'm divorced, but only because my wife "changed her mind". Of course, I know that she changed her mind only after she became addicted to drugs. Which is why I said earlier that that love/committment is not really sustainable when someone is suffering from addictions. They lose their ability to reason/communicate which is critical to ANY relationship.

As for swinging.....I'm no expert but I bet you'll find that most "swingers" are monogamous. They do not want to share their "heart" with anyone else....just their "bodies" on occasion. I see this as a pretty fascinating option to have. Swinging makes much more sense to me than having multiple loves or having affairs......again as it is truly mutual and no one is feeling pressured.

There I'm glad I got that all out!......and BTW now that I'm single I can have all the "affairs" and guilt-free sex that I want!......

 

[MT_Pitcher]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Living vs. Existing

Getting the best of someone is an interesting phrase.

I think that is the big draw for people - that they think they can have all the good stuff in a relationship - and only the good stuff. It is a false appearance of the people involved. I don't see that as real love, as neither person is behaving as themselves. I think if that is the case then the people involved would be using one another to promote a self made fairy tale.

Life is difficult, relationships are hard and take work - there is good and bad in all of us. So when in a committed relationship you accept it all.

If someone wants to experience only roses and romance then the affair mode would be the way to have that but I don't think that is love of the person - it is a love of the person you are when you're with them - and they with you - but it isn't a true picture of real life.

If life were different.........

Very good points Cate
Sometimes people need a self made fairy tale, even for a while because it makes them feel good about themselves.
But very few real life fairy tales have happy endings.
But I do think in some circumstances an affair can be real love. Sometimes there are loves strong enough to withstand the pressures, but they are few and far between. Very few!

 

[Cathleen]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Living vs. Existing

Very good points Cate
Sometimes people need a self made fairy tale, even for a while because it makes them feel good about themselves.
But very few real life fairy tales have happy endings.
But I do think in some circumstances an affair can be real love. Sometimes there are loves strong enough to withstand the pressures, but they are few and far between. Very few!

I agree - it is rare. I also suppose it can be said that it is a real love to the people involved too, perhaps as they define it or want love to be.

I've been thinking of the original question of can you love two people at the same time. At first thought I said yes. But after considering it more I don't think so. I think there is always someone that will get the shorter end of the stick so to speak. I can't image me being able to give all of me to two people equally. (I think it would kill me lol) Somethings can't be equal.

I'm not sure of how it would make one feel better about themself. I'm not seeing that - can you enlighten me there please? I'm just not getting that......

 

[MT_Pitcher]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Living vs. Existing

I agree - it is rare. I also suppose it can be said that it is a real love to the people involved too, perhaps as they define it or want love to be.

I've been thinking of the original question of can you love two people at the same time. At first thought I said yes. But after considering it more I don't think so. I think there is always someone that will get the shorter end of the stick so to speak. I can't image me being able to give all of me to two people equally. (I think it would kill me lol) Somethings can't be equal.

I'm not sure of how it would make one feel better about themself. I'm not seeing that - can you enlighten me there please? I'm just not getting that......

I think some people have affairs to make them feel more attractive, more desirable, more wanted. A lot of the men I've seen do it as a sort of game, because they like the conquest part of it, and I suppose the same for some women. But those are just affairs, love really has nothing to do with them.

 

[Cathleen]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Living vs. Existing

I think some people have affairs to make them feel more attractive, more desirable, more wanted. A lot of the men I've seen do it as a sort of game, because they like the conquest part of it, and I suppose the same for some women. But those are just affairs, love really has nothing to do with them.

Ok now I understand, thanks! Just took my brain a bit to wrap around that one I guess.......

 

[MT_Pitcher]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Living vs. Existing

Ok now I understand, thanks! Just took my brain a bit to wrap around that one I guess.......

What color is your hair??
I've been getting very convoluted in my thinking

 

[Cathleen]

What color is your hair??
I've been getting very convoluted in my thinking

Oh man could I say SO much about that comment!! But I won't, only because I'm nice........ and about my hair color to you!

 

[MT_Pitcher]

Oh man could I say SO much about that comment!! But I won't, only because I'm nice........ and about my hair color to you!

ROTFLMAO

 

[DLL]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Living vs. Existing

Originally posted by MT_Pitcher
I think some people have affairs to make them feel more attractive, more desirable, more wanted. A lot of the men I've seen do it as a sort of game, because they like the conquest part of it, and I suppose the same for some women. But those are just affairs, love really has nothing to do with them.

maybe some people do have affairs as a game of conquest...but those people probably cant maintain a long term relationship of any sort...if you say love has nothing to do with it than i suppose its no different than people that cyber... both are selffulfilling to a degree...
i dont know what to say about people that are involved in an affair...only they can comment on it....i will say that i hate when people say whats missing to cause one to want an affair..i dont think its whats missing maybe they are adding something...and i dont think people go out looking to have affairs....it happens...
its a very touchy subject for sure....
DLL

 

[MT_Pitcher]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Living vs. Existing

maybe some people do have affairs as a game of conquest...but those people probably cant maintain a long term relationship of any sort...if you say love has nothing to do with it than i suppose its no different than people that cyber... both are selffulfilling to a degree...
i dont know what to say about people that are involved in an affair...only they can comment on it....i will say that i hate when people say whats missing to cause one to want an affair..i dont think its whats missing maybe they are adding something...and i dont think people go out looking to have affairs....it happens...
its a very touchy subject for sure....
DLL

I did NOT say that that was the case for all people.
But I know for a fact that it is for some. I used to work in bars and saw it all the time.
There are two very different basic types of affairs. One is just sex. And people go out and look for that kind all the time.
The other is the more complicated one and deals with actual feelings. And you're right about that one... it happens, you can't make it happen. It's more like lightning. either hits you ... or not.
And each one is different, depending on how they choose to handle it. I'm not saying it's bad, anymore than I can say the moon is bad. It's just there and a fact of some lives and they deal with it in their own ways.

 

[DLL]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Living vs. Existing

Originally posted by MT_Pitcher
I did NOT say that that was the case for all people.
But I know for a fact that it is for some. I used to work in bars and saw it all the time.
There are two very different basic types of affairs. One is just sex. And people go out and look for that kind all the time.
The other is the more complicated one and deals with actual feelings. And you're right about that one... it happens, you can't make it happen. It's more like lightning. either hits you ... or not.
And each one is different, depending on how they choose to handle it. I'm not saying it's bad, anymore than I can say the moon is bad. It's just there and a fact of some lives and they deal with it in their own ways.

 

[DLL]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Living vs. Existing

Originally posted by DLL

ooppps i forgot to actually type a reply...god i must be tired

 

[Cathleen]

And yet another opinion.....

I think it is choice - on very, very rare occasions do affairs just happen, if at all. We had to make a decision to pursue the relationship.

We all have needs and there is no one person that can ever meet all our needs. But to go beyond a committment of a relationship is a choice.

I also think that there is a possiblity that one feels something missing in their primary relationship, conscious or unconscious, to look outside the relationship to have that need met.

I am thinking this comes back to contentment. If we are content with ourselves and our lives then we wouldn't actively seek out an affair. Even the other person cannot fill all our needs, in fact they may only fill a small part but the choice is still ours.

I guess I see an affair as hurtful to those involved that didn't have a choice - the other spouse.

DLL you are right, this is a very touchy subject. I've been the other woman, it sucked from so many angles. If I had it over to do I wouldn't have done it.

 

[DLL]

Originally posted by Cathleen
And yet another opinion.....

I think it is choice - on very, very rare occasions do affairs just happen, if at all. We had to make a decision to pursue the relationship.

We all have needs and there is no one person that can ever meet all our needs. But to go beyond a committment of a relationship is a choice.

I also think that there is a possiblity that one feels something missing in their primary relationship, conscious or unconscious, to look outside the relationship to have that need met.

I am thinking this comes back to contentment. If we are content with ourselves and our lives then we wouldn't actively seek out an affair. Even the other person can fulfill all our needs, in fact they may only fill a small part but the choice is still ours.

I guess I see an affair as hurtful to those involved that didn't have a choice - the other spouse.

DLL you are right, this is a very touchy subject. I've been the other woman, it sucked from so many angles. If I had it over to do I wouldn't have done it.

which other woman??? the one involved IN the affair or the one being cheated on???

 

[Cathleen]

which other woman??? the one involved IN the affair or the one being cheated on???

In the affair -

 

[DLL]

Originally posted by Cathleen
In the affair -

why do you regret it??? wasnt it wonderful at the time???

 

[Cathleen]

why do you regret it??? wasnt it wonderful at the time???

Was it wonderful at the time? Parts yes, mostly though I knew what I was doing was wrong - I was interferring in a relationship whether he admitted it or not. I don't think there is any way to compartmentalize your life tothat extent . I tried not to think of that, couldn't unthink something.

Why do I regret it? It wasn't right for me - it didn't make me a better person. I'm a believer that our actions and behaviors should make us better people. That didn't.

 

[DLL]

Originally posted by Cathleen
Was it wonderful at the time? Parts yes, mostly though I knew what I was doing was wrong - I was interferring in a relationship whether he admitted it or not. I don't think there is any way to compartmentalize your life tothat extent . I tried not to think of that, couldn't unthink something.

Why do I regret it? It wasn't right for me - it didn't make me a better person. I'm a believer that our actions and behaviors should make us better people. That didn't.

ok i understand that...but heres something to think about..does "cybering" with married people online make one a better person??? isnt that sort of thing wrong too?? its interferring in relationships too???whats so different about being involved in an affair...both wouldnt seem to make anyone a better person??? just wondering..I am going through this and any advise is helpful....i dont mean to imply you cyber with married men its a general question...

 

[Cathleen]

ok i understand that...but heres something to think about..does "cybering" with married people online make one a better person??? isnt that sort of thing wrong too?? its interferring in relationships too???whats so different about being involved in an affair...both wouldnt seem to make anyone a better person??? just wondering..I am going through this and any advise is helpful....i dont mean to imply you cyber with married men its a general question...

I can't say it is right or wrong in a general sense. Each relationship is different. "Cyber" with one married person may not interfer at all, while it could with another.

I can only speak from my experience - there have been ocassions that I thought it was definitely wrong - for both parties. I knew it was wrong for me, it certainly didn't make me feel good about myself.

I have to go by my feelings. I also know I can push feelings aside and ignore them and go ahead with certain behaviors but it will come back to me.

And here comes the big but, at some point I will have to address it all, as it pertains to me, my growth and my thoughts and feelings about myself in this world.

There are more than enough actions I'm not proud of in my life, what I try to do is make the best decision I can so I will be ok with me. When I know I've screwed up I know it......... man do I know it.

Sorry DLL, I am not sure how to answer that any other way. If I have more thoughts I will let you know. Life is complicated - that free will thing you know? Gets me everytime!

 

[MysteriousRomantic]

just a short comment and then I will shut up. statistics show that only 2 out of every ten in an affair ever leaves their current relationship. Most people are fed lies and promises just to keep the other person there who is willing and wanting to make a commitment. But what happens to them when the other one drops the bomb that they are not leaving their current spouse. Too many people get hurt in affairs. Guess that is why I truly believe in total commitment even when dating someone. If the relationship does not work then you can move on.


STAY AWAY FROM AFFAIRS>

 

[midwestyankee]

I'm going to begin this with two caveats. First, I am not going to dip into the 55-gallon drum of worms that is the discussion of affairs. Second, I've been suffering from a nasty head cold all week and I'm not sure my brain is working normally just yet. That said...

It is a mistake to say that one cannot love two people at the same time simply because one of the two will get the short end of the stick. That is false reasoning because it presumes that love is a perfect state of 100% devotion. It's not. Love is a flexible state; it waxes and wanes from time to time and it definitely grows over longer periods of time. We all know this but we tend to forget it or confuse it with other issues.

Consider two couples. Ann and Bob have just met. They found an immediate connection one night when they each bought a single ticket to a local production of Brigadoon[/] and they were seated next to each other. During the intermission they exchanged pleasantries and began talking about the show and its portrayal of impossible love. They have talked or seen each other every day since. Now, six months later, they both feel they are head-over-heels in love. Carol and Dave have been married for 32 years and they are both just settling into retirement. Their children are all well situated as adults and their biggest challenge right now is adjusting to being with each other all day every day. They finish each day with a little TV or some reading and nearly every day remind each other that their love just keeps getting a little better with each passing year.

Which of these couples has the greater love? I suggest that each couple loves as well and as much as they can. Love is intense at first, and then becomes more profound than intense. But it's still love. Yet, it seems to me that the longer-term relationship probably holds the stronger love. But that does not mean that Ann and Bob do not love each other. Comparisons like this show that love is not an all-or-nothing thing.

One can love more than one person at a time. Chances are, the loves will be different because the people in each pair and the circumstances through which they are living out their love are different. Nevertheless, loving two people at a time is not just a theoretical possibility. It is not only possible but probable.

Now let's turn to the description that GG gave us and that DLL has hinted at: when two people meet who are immensely attracted to each other. It's as if a beneficent bolt of lightning struck them both and they are forever linked by this attraction. If both of them are also in a long-term relationship with another, they will probably continue to love their significant others even while their love for each other evolves. Will the love these two people have for their spouses change or diminish? Who knows? The fact remains, though, that they will - at least for a time - love two people simultaneously.

 

[~Dream~]

that was indeed wonderful Yankee ,as always ..

I guess I just feel the need to make a point that it's most important to say that it's not JUST the internet 'tho ,I really hate when ppl say that ,like it doesnt Hurt just as bad when ppl cheat online and their spouse or SO doesnt have a clue,It DOES hurt just the same...
If a person is having an affair online or off ,just ask yourself is there really a GOOD reason why you cant work on this problem with the person you are with?? and also how would YOU feel if you were the one being cheated on ?? and yes indeed it IS cheating if you are giving part of yourself to another in a way that wasnt agreed upon by the one who deserves it most,I know cause I have been on BOTh sides of this spectrum and just wish somehow to help someone to Not have the pain or Embarrassment that comes from it...* steps back off the soap box yet again ..( worms Dont scare me Yank)

 

[midwestyankee]

that was indeed wonderful Yankee ,as always ..

I guess I just feel the need to make a point that it's most important to say that it's not JUST the internet 'tho ,I really hate when ppl say that ,like it doesnt Hurt just as bad when ppl cheat online and their spouse or SO doesnt have a clue,It DOES hurt just the same...
If a person is having an affair online or off ,just ask yourself is there really a GOOD reason why you cant work on this problem with the person you are with?? and also how would YOU feel if you were the one being cheated on ?? and yes indeed it IS cheating if you are giving part of yourself to another in a way that wasnt agreed upon by the one who deserves it most,I know cause I have been on BOTh sides of this spectrum and just wish somehow to help someone to Not have the pain or Embarrassment that comes from it...* steps back off the soap box yet again ..( worms Dont scare me Yank)

Worms don't frighten me either, Dream, but I choose not to swim with them.

I agree with you here. When you are in an exclusive relationship and you then give a part of your heart to another, it's cheating regardless of the venue. Online romances are cheating just as R/L romances are. I think you're making the point that an online romance is as real as one in R/L and I agree with you. Some people may participate in activities that are part of an online romance, such as cybering, without being romantically involved but that sort of anonymous behavior is another thing altogether. I think that's where some people get off track and start thinking that cybering is not cheating. The cheating happens with your heart, not with your fingers.

 

[DLL]

Originally posted by midwestyankee
I'm going to begin this with two caveats. First, I am not going to dip into the 55-gallon drum of worms that is the discussion of affairs. Second, I've been suffering from a nasty head cold all week and I'm not sure my brain is working normally just yet. That said...

It is a mistake to say that one cannot love two people at the same time simply because one of the two will get the short end of the stick. That is false reasoning because it presumes that love is a perfect state of 100% devotion. It's not. Love is a flexible state; it waxes and wanes from time to time and it definitely grows over longer periods of time. We all know this but we tend to forget it or confuse it with other issues.

Consider two couples. Ann and Bob have just met. They found an immediate connection one night when they each bought a single ticket to a local production of Brigadoon[/] and they were seated next to each other. During the intermission they exchanged pleasantries and began talking about the show and its portrayal of impossible love. They have talked or seen each other every day since. Now, six months later, they both feel they are head-over-heels in love. Carol and Dave have been married for 32 years and they are both just settling into retirement. Their children are all well situated as adults and their biggest challenge right now is adjusting to being with each other all day every day. They finish each day with a little TV or some reading and nearly every day remind each other that their love just keeps getting a little better with each passing year.

Which of these couples has the greater love? I suggest that each couple loves as well and as much as they can. Love is intense at first, and then becomes more profound than intense. But it's still love. Yet, it seems to me that the longer-term relationship probably holds the stronger love. But that does not mean that Ann and Bob do not love each other. Comparisons like this show that love is not an all-or-nothing thing.

One can love more than one person at a time. Chances are, the loves will be different because the people in each pair and the circumstances through which they are living out their love are different. Nevertheless, loving two people at a time is not just a theoretical possibility. It is not only possible but probable.

Now let's turn to the description that GG gave us and that DLL has hinted at: when two people meet who are immensely attracted to each other. It's as if a beneficent bolt of lightning struck them both and they are forever linked by this attraction. If both of them are also in a long-term relationship with another, they will probably continue to love their significant others even while their love for each other evolves. Will the love these two people have for their spouses change or diminish? Who knows? The fact remains, though, that they will - at least for a time - love two people simultaneously.

very on the mark