Death and writing

[sweetnpetite]

It intersts me that when we think of 'grief councilers' [and related topics] we think of something removed from ourselves, something that only certain people need. But rarely are any of us well trained to handle loss, to deal with it effectively, to even begin to make sence of it. And yet- all of us will experience loss. Not just some of us. Not just a few, or many or half. All. Each and every one of us. We just figure, I suppose, that we will either shrivel up and die (such as the loss of a child) or we'll move on with our life, that time will heal. Yet every new death brings up all of the unadressed pain of the previous ones. (sometimes even the addressed pain, but in a less terrible way if you've dealt with it, I think) It's like a constant stressor that only gets more and more heavy, never less. It pushes us to try to forget, instead of trying to remember, for remembering is too painful. Yet who among us wants to be forgotten when we are gone? Never to be spoken of, or thought of again? Perhaps deep down we know this, so while we supress our memories because they are too painful, we accumulate a new emotion- guilt. How can our loved ones be forgotton or replaced? How can we let our own lives continue without them?

So many important questions, yet so few people have any idea how to address them. So few people have any guidence whatsoever beyond old cliques like 'time will heal' and 'stay strong for your family' 'keep busy' and 'don't make a scene' And on and on. Old ideas that do more harm than good.

I agree Samandiriel, the world needs more guides through this dark journey.

And I agree also with your beautiful statement:

If you peel away the painful layers there is a renewal of spirit.

Our feer of messy emotions, of being 'morbid' of bringing up painful topics feelings prevents us from achieving that renewal so neccessary for our growth.

 

[yui]

Where do I know that name from?

Kozan Ichikyo was a zen master who died in 1360. This was his jisei (or death poem). His legend is: A few days before his death, Kozan called his pupils together, ordered them to bury him without ceremony, and forbade them to hold services in his memory. He wrote this poem on the morning of his death, laid down his brush, and died sitting upright.

And, Sweet, I agree with Sam. So many people aren't able to put the pieces of their lives back together after great loss. Kudos to you for wanting to help with that process.

 

[Samandiriel]

It pushes us to try to forget, instead of trying to remember, for remembering is too painful. Yet who among us wants to be forgotten when we are gone? Never to be spoken of, or thought of again? Perhaps deep down we know this, so while we supress our memories because they are too painful, we accumulate a new emotion- guilt. How can our loved ones be forgotton or replaced? How can we let our own lives continue without them?

So many important questions, yet so few people have any idea how to address them. So few people have any guidence whatsoever beyond old cliques like 'time will heal' and 'stay strong for your family' 'keep busy' and 'don't make a scene' And on and on. Old ideas that do more harm than good.

Our feer of messy emotions, of being 'morbid' of bringing up painful topics feelings prevents us from achieving that renewal so neccessary for our growth.

We feel guilty because we survive. I have felt that when a dear friend died unexpectedly.
If we are fortunate we can move beyond that and as you say remember that spirit that brought a moment of joy into our lives.

When I grieve I become absorbed in it, I allow it to wrench away at my heart. I allow it to make me feel anger, guilt, confusion and when I release these emotions I try to rationalize why I felt them until I come to the conclusion that....it's okay to feel the pain, it's okay to be angry at my loss and it's okay to feel guilty, but I don't let that consume me.
At the core there is a sense of enlightenment. We have no control over death and we fear it because we can't comprehend it. When we realize it's a part of what makes us human, that its part of a cycle of life when can then, hopefully, prepare ourselves for it.
We can choose to dwell in our grief or we can celebrate a life past and present.

Think about people who face death daily, doctors, nurses, police and fireman. How do they cope?
When I researched for my story I wondered about those people in the concentration camps that faced it daily, it was seen, heard , smelled....foreboding and eminant, yet somehow people lived through it.
How would I have dealt with it? would I survive or give in?

 

[CharleyH]

It intersts me that when we think of 'grief councilers' [and related topics] we think of something removed from ourselves, something that only certain people need. But rarely are any of us well trained to handle loss, to deal with it effectively, to even begin to make sence of it. And yet- all of us will experience loss. Not just some of us. Not just a few, or many or half. All. Each and every one of us. We just figure, I suppose, that we will either shrivel up and die (such as the loss of a child) or we'll move on with our life, that time will heal. Yet every new death brings up all of the unadressed pain of the previous ones. (sometimes even the addressed pain, but in a less terrible way if you've dealt with it, I think) It's like a constant stressor that only gets more and more heavy, never less. It pushes us to try to forget, instead of trying to remember, for remembering is too painful. Yet who among us wants to be forgotten when we are gone? Never to be spoken of, or thought of again? Perhaps deep down we know this, so while we supress our memories because they are too painful, we accumulate a new emotion- guilt. How can our loved ones be forgotton or replaced? How can we let our own lives continue without them?

So many important questions, yet so few people have any idea how to address them. So few people have any guidence whatsoever beyond old cliques like 'time will heal' and 'stay strong for your family' 'keep busy' and 'don't make a scene' And on and on. Old ideas that do more harm than good.

I agree Samandiriel, the world needs more guides through this dark journey.

And I agree also with your beautiful statement:

If you peel away the painful layers there is a renewal of spirit.

Our feer of messy emotions, of being 'morbid' of bringing up painful topics feelings prevents us from achieving that renewal so neccessary for our growth.

Well, I think what we don't realize is that loss encompasses much more than death, and in this way, writing about death, even in context of erotic or romantic(not porn per se) can have many parallels. The loss of a relationship can, for some, be far a greater loss than death.

I have more to say, but will let this statement/ opinion fly for now.

 

[Kassiana]

Speaking of funerals all being for the living...

My mother once attended a funeral for a woman she knew who supported her not-for-profit business. The minister mentioned the woman twice in his sermon at the funeral (both times as "Mother," by the way), and spent the rest of the time talking about himself, and his trips to Israel, and his own mother. Another person from my mom's work attended with her and whispered halfway through, "Whose funeral does he think this is?"

Yes, funerals are FOR the living, but FYI to any budding clergy in the audience, they should at least appear to be ABOUT the dead person.

 

[Samandiriel]

Well, I think what we don't realize is that loss encompasses much more than death, and in this way, writing about death, even in context of erotic or romantic(not porn per se) can have many parallels. The loss of a relationship can, for some, be far a greater loss than death.

I have more to say, but will let this statement/ opinion fly for now.

then spit it out woman!!!

 

[CharleyH]

then spit it out woman!!!

I don't have the same little spitting icon that I do have in yahoo, however: Sex and death and the many forms it comes in. Can sex be a part of death without it being snuff (NOT what I am going for. Obviously, we do this in horror, even Hollywood style where someone is offed in the moment of sex, generally a repressive monster release kind of intellectual take via Robin Wood, and I know in stories like City of Angels or ... ok, off on a different wave ...

THIS is what I meant:

IF we are erotic or porn writers, can we weave a sex story around death, OR is it something too hard for people to take? To emotional when they are looking for sex, or as erotic or porn writers, do we feel our audience wants only sex, or do they want more than that?

(hoping this makes sense - ask for clarity if need be, since it makes sense to me but I'm weird )

 

[Guest]

I don't have the same little spitting icon that I do have in yahoo, however: Sex and death and the many forms it comes in. Can sex be a part of death without it being snuff (NOT what I am going for. Obviously, we do this in horror, even Hollywood style where someone is offed in the moment of sex, generally a repressive monster release kind of intellectual take via Robin Wood, and I know in stories like City of Angels or ... ok, off on a different wave ...

THIS is what I meant:

IF we are erotic or porn writers, can we weave a sex story around death, OR is it something too hard for people to take? To emotional when they are looking for sex, or as erotic or porn writers, do we feel our audience wants only sex, or do they want more than that?

(hoping this makes sense - ask for clarity if need be, since it makes sense to me but I'm weird )

Your question makes perfect sense, but I think the answer is - it depends.

It depends upon both the writer and the reader's own personal experiences with death and grief.

It depends on the skill of the writer and the intelligence of the reader.

It depends upon if that particular reader wants more than just a stroke story.

But a well-written story, death details tastefully handled, and an intelligent reader not dealing with their own issues - why not?

 

[blackhaus7]

I don't have the same little spitting icon that I do have in yahoo, however: Sex and death and the many forms it comes in. Can sex be a part of death without it being snuff (NOT what I am going for. Obviously, we do this in horror, even Hollywood style where someone is offed in the moment of sex, generally a repressive monster release kind of intellectual take via Robin Wood, and I know in stories like City of Angels or ... ok, off on a different wave ...

THIS is what I meant:

IF we are erotic or porn writers, can we weave a sex story around death, OR is it something too hard for people to take? To emotional when they are looking for sex, or as erotic or porn writers, do we feel our audience wants only sex, or do they want more than that?

(hoping this makes sense - ask for clarity if need be, since it makes sense to me but I'm weird )

It makes sense. I'm an audience, not a writer. I prefer a good story that has sex rather than a good sex story. Does that make sense?

 

[NoJo]

Gonna be a bit bold here. I forgot my mothers death, and her birthday for the first time in 8 years since she died of breast cancer - girls please remember to get checked! I was busy. Too busy, and forgot. Today being my Dad's birthday, and his one year death coming up in May, I am a little nostalgic, and emotional. Please excuse me. AND NO SORRIES!

Those of you who have seen death or experienced it, do you write of it or want to? Or is death like religion, to have experienced, but we don't speak of?

I know Imp wrote a wonderful Xmas story this past year, and (correct me if wrong) it was non-erotic ... so if you are an erotic writer, and thats what you are, do you do homage to death in an erotic story, no matter if a mother, father, family or stranger? Does it suit eroticism as an off shoot (NOT talking cronnenberg here )

Erotica is a very narrow field of writing.

Write first, classify later.

I started writing a lot after my fathers death, partly because he was a writer and I needed to connect with him. Good thing he didn't clean cesspools for a living, eh?

 

[oggbashan]

Speaking of funerals all being for the living...

My mother once attended a funeral for a woman she knew who supported her not-for-profit business. The minister mentioned the woman twice in his sermon at the funeral (both times as "Mother," by the way), and spent the rest of the time talking about himself, and his trips to Israel, and his own mother. Another person from my mom's work attended with her and whispered halfway through, "Whose funeral does he think this is?"

Yes, funerals are FOR the living, but FYI to any budding clergy in the audience, they should at least appear to be ABOUT the dead person.

Speaking on behalf of the Rev. Jeanne D'Artois (she let me, because it's my birthday) the minister at a funeral is often the only person there who doesn't know the deceased well. Unless the relations have briefed the minister fully, he/she is often speaking with little knowledge unless the deceased was a prominent member of the congregation. Even then the minister can overemphasise the church aspect to the detriment of the rest of the deceased's life.

Most local papers have a pre-written obituary article for anyone who has been newsworthy in their community. That obituary can be updated on the occasion of the individual's death but because it was written in advance is likely to be more objective than one written under pressure of a print deadline.

If you have an elderly relative who is likely to die before you do, it is a good idea to write down what that person means to you, an advance obituary if you like, that you have on file and can use to brief the officiating minister. If you write in well in advance you may be able to get information from other elderly relatives that might not be available when the subject of the obituary dies.

My father and mother were sufficiently prominent in their local communities for there to be obituaries on file with the local newspapers. For my mother, who died first, the minister had known her as a church member and worker for years and he was a family friend. Members of the family spoke at the funeral service about her and the whole event was personal to her.

My father outlived most of his contemporaries. The minister at his service had never met him but was given (by me) a two-page resume of my father's life and achievements. (The minister could have read the two page spread in the local paper as well). My brother and I spoke at the funeral as did several of his grandchildren. A great-grandchild read a poem she had written about him. The service was personal to my father because the family had helped the minister to make it personal. The minister did preach to us about the need to follow a Christian life, perhaps because he realises that some of us would only be in a church for a wedding or a funeral. We didn't mind. That's his job.

Please, if you have anything to do with arranging a funeral, brief the minister so that he/she can make the service personal to the deceased. Involve the family in readings, in eulogies, in celebrating the individual. Some of the family may feel that they can't do it, but use those who can to make the service a commemoration of the good things about the one who has died.

Og

PS. You might guess from the above that none of my family are shrinking violets or prone to hide their light under a bushel. Even my father's great-granddaughter read her poem to the church without the need for a microphone nor the need to say 'Shh!' to her smaller cousins. One look from her in their direction was enough. She was 8. They were 4.

 

[CharleyH]

Your question makes perfect sense, but I think the answer is - it depends.

It depends upon both the writer and the reader's own personal experiences with death and grief.

It depends on the skill of the writer and the intelligence of the reader.

It depends upon if that particular reader wants more than just a stroke story.

But a well-written story, death details tastefully handled, and an intelligent reader not dealing with their own issues - why not?

So, better a novel then a lit story?

 

[CharleyH]

It makes sense. I'm an audience, not a writer. I prefer a good story that has sex rather than a good sex story. Does that make sense?

Smart ass. I like that.

 

[Kassiana]

The minister at my grandmother's funeral didn't know her, either, but he gave a very good generic sermon and even picked up some pieces from my father's eulogy as the service progressed. I liked him.

 

[CharleyH]

Erotica is a very narrow field of writing.

Write first, classify later.

I started writing a lot after my fathers death, partly because he was a writer and I needed to connect with him. Good thing he didn't clean cesspools for a living, eh?

A smarter ass, I love that (swoon )

I get it, for me, but what about others. Some might find death to be inappropriate an issue, a secondary one for example, in a story that is supposed to be erotic or pornographic? (sorry for the distinction, I just believe there is one).

 

[NoJo]

I had an idea for a TV comedy serial called "Wids", about what goes on in grief councelling for recent widows and widowers. Apparently it's pretty sexually charged at these grief councelling sessions, according to a couple I know who first met at one.

 

[rgraham666]

I have a very Klingon attitude towards death.

The only thing that can be said is that it is death, and the end.

 

[CharleyH]

I have a very Klingon attitude towards death.

The only thing that can be said is that it is death, and the end.

Maybe for the dead. For the living?

 

[ABSTRUSE]

The dead don't write porn.

 

[SeaCat]

I don't have the same little spitting icon that I do have in yahoo, however: Sex and death and the many forms it comes in. Can sex be a part of death without it being snuff (NOT what I am going for. Obviously, we do this in horror, even Hollywood style where someone is offed in the moment of sex, generally a repressive monster release kind of intellectual take via Robin Wood, and I know in stories like City of Angels or ... ok, off on a different wave ...

THIS is what I meant:

IF we are erotic or porn writers, can we weave a sex story around death, OR is it something too hard for people to take? To emotional when they are looking for sex, or as erotic or porn writers, do we feel our audience wants only sex, or do they want more than that?

(hoping this makes sense - ask for clarity if need be, since it makes sense to me but I'm weird )

Charley,

Yes we write porn, but we are writers first last and always. As for our including death on a story I believe we can do it, and even do it tastefully. (ie without it being snuff.) How the readers will accept it I think will depend on the reader. Like us their tastes are varied. If the story is well written then some of the readers will enjoy it. Death like sex can and does have very intense emotions, which if translated into type will affect the reader. Of course if the reader is just looking for stroke they hit upon the wrong story and may feel offended.

Cat

 

[CharleyH]

The dead don't write porn.

From the living dead? I am not surprised by this answer

 

[CharleyH]

Charley,

Yes we write porn, but we are writers first last and always. As for our including death on a story I believe we can do it, and even do it tastefully. (ie without it being snuff.) How the readers will accept it I think will depend on the reader. Like us their tastes are varied. If the story is well written then some of the readers will enjoy it. Death like sex can and does have very intense emotions, which if translated into type will affect the reader. Of course if the reader is just looking for stroke they hit upon the wrong story and may feel offended.

Cat

Thanks Cat. Question: How would your readers take it?

 

[SeaCat]

Thanks Cat. Question: How would your readers take it?

I was tempted to answer with the wise ass comment of "Readers? I have readers?" but decided against this mainly because I honestly don't know. I don't think I have any "dedicated" readers due to my not having many stories out there. (I'm working on that though.) If I do have "fans" then I haven't received enough feedback from them to know what they are looking for. (I do know what Anon isn't looking for though. )

Cat

P.s. if I come across a story dealing with death I will read it and post feedback on it.

 

[CharleyH]

I was tempted to answer with the wise ass comment of "Readers? I have readers?" but decided against this mainly because I honestly don't know. I don't think I have any "dedicated" readers due to my not having many stories out there. (I'm working on that though.) If I do have "fans" then I haven't received enough feedback from them to know what they are looking for. (I do know what Anon isn't looking for though. )

Cat

P.s. if I come across a story dealing with death I will read it and post feedback on it.

Well, I am not talking DEALING with it. I am talking narrative, as a triad, of three kinds, death of a parent, death of friendship and death of relationship and a child, alchemic in part, pseudo astrologic, not heavy in it, and REAL (Well not real, but hopefully coming off.

Does anyone have a story then, with death as a part theme? How did you come to write it?

I would LOVE to get JOE WOODSWORTH back on the topic because he found one of my stories erotic, so did OG, and it was about death, both enlightening. I would like especially if no one dissed Joe W, we dont all agree with him, on his thoughts, but neither does he agree with we (very, oh Seuss I know) as we all have, our opinions like it or not, he does have his thoughts. As someone who has gone through many deaths, my psuedo-own included, I do not take offence to Joe's 'what a sorry topic', I only take issue. You should not either.

Therefore I invite Joe, as a couple of people have asked me why he deleated, and did not answer. If anyone does not like what he says, well - take issue gladly or skip it, we are all entitled

(I needed to say that. I HATE censorship )

 

[elsol]

IF we are erotic or porn writers, can we weave a sex story around death, OR is it something too hard for people to take? To emotional when they are looking for sex, or as erotic or porn writers, do we feel our audience wants only sex, or do they want more than that?

The easy answer is, why not?

Erotica as a literary form has more freedom than any other, because its rules are not defined. Romance is almost as free, except the central theme to a true romance is that 'A Loving Relationship conquers all obstacles.'

So the art form's only blockage is as you state the expectations of the reader. My story 'Michelle's Story' made it to the top of the heap in February and is very popular among the readers. The core of that story is the loss of an artist's ability to play the guitar when it has been a consumming passion; it would be something he would have chosen death rather than lose. The story ends in triumph, because it was a 'Romance', and I made sure to follow the strictures of that form.

The original version of the story though was just as popular 'elsewhere' and did not end quite as triumphantly; the relationship survived but the artist did not regain his ability to play.

Do I feel the audience wants only sex... absolutely not, I get WAY... and I mean WAY too many emails about the 'story' itself to believe that, or emails that state 'I only skim the sex because I want to know what happens next in David's life'.

I think a part of the audience wants some heavy-duty monkey fucking; and I'm one those readers, and in most of my stories I try to satisfy them because that's what I want to read. A part of the audience though wants their cake; they want it to be fat-free; they want it to have chocolate icing; and you better not forget the latte.

I'll quote an email that I received whose sentiment is not uncommon:

This story is far more than I'd expect from erotica.

My question would be why is a good character development, an engrossing storyline, a consistent plot, and more than one edit... something MORE than should be expected.

If a lot of the time fucking isn't just about fucking, then why would a story about fucking be just about fucking.

You're not going to satisfy EVERY reader, but if people can hate Hemingway, Milton, Shakespeare, Toni Morrisson, why the would you think any of us is going to grab 100% of the audience?

And that's my soapbox...

Read 'Aftermath' by Al Steiner and tell me erotica is just about 'sex'.

Sincerely,
ElSol