Cussing & Discussing Robert Heinlein's Works

[SlyFox]

Having just finished Heinlein's "To Sail Beyond the Sunset" and discussing some of his more "controversial" ideas on another thread, I decided to start a thread devoted just to Heinlein and his works... Especially the "Lasurus Long" series.

R.A.H. had a most profound and life changing influence on me the first time I read "Stranger In A Strange Land". Even participated in a "Water Ceremony" group marriage. Unfortunately, (or fortunately - depending on your point of view) that didn't last very long.

I was really pissed when he up and died on us in 1988 at the ripe old age of 88. He was supposed to be immortal wasn't he???

If anyone's interested I've found some other fascinating web sites about this wonderful and remarkable man that I will be happy to share.

Hope to hear from all you Heinlein fans out there...

SlyFox

 

[sensualpilgrim]

I'm glad to be here

Thanks to SlyFox for opening a new thread for a man I consider to be the most important (and sadly, somewhat unknown) thinker of the new Space Age dawning. That's Robert A. Heinlein.

As the greatest writer on science fiction, Heinlein was a very bold writer as he took on science, genetic enginnering, space travel, space business, religion, history, mega-politics, space living, sexuality, social mores, and most importantly, human freedom as individual. I would say that just about everything he have to say will become more important as we advances futher into the undiscovered country.

His most important books were "Stranger in a Strange Land", "Time Enough for Love", "Friday", "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and To Sail Beyond the Sunset". I suggest that anybody who never read these to check them out so that you can follow some of the debates that surely will pop up here.

Today, I want to raise the topic of nudity. Nudity was covered many times in his books. In fact, in "The Door into Summer", the hero's attempt to right a great wrong againet him by his unfaithful wife and his double-timing partners were greatly helped by a nudist couple.

Any take on this?

Sensual Pilgrim

 

[pet petra]

Wow, I didn't know Heinlein died..How sad.. I loved Stranger In A Strange Land..What a profound book. I hope to be reading more of his works in the future.. He was such a visionary.. Petra

 

[SlyFox]

Heinlein and Nudity

First I must echo and endorse "Pilgrim's" assessment of the man that Robert A. Heinlein was and the messages he has left us on how to live a full and satisfying life and hold our government and the "authorities" to task for the decisions they make that so profoundly effecct nearly every person in this country, if not everyone on the planet. He was truely a visionary and I believe a genuine prophet of where our civilization may be headed.

Any thinking person who has a concern for the welfare of not only our society but every individual in it cannot help but find something of value to their lives in the many books, stories and articles that this honest man produced in his lifetime. Along with Issac Asminov, Frank Herbert, L. Ron Hubbard, and a few other writers and thinkers, he has left an indelible mark on history and the future.

His writings and obvious convictions on the subject of nudity in our society were a startling revelation for me when I first came across and became enamoured with "Stranger In A Strange Land". As I said in my opening post to this thread. That book had a profound, life changing effect on me in the mid-to-late 1970's. Up to that time I had been ostensibly a very conservative individual. After reading "Stranger" for the first time (and "Proposition 31" by Robert Rimmer, I resigned from the military, ended a 20 year marriage and joined an alternative lifestyles group known as "The Harrad Community and attended my first "clothing optional" campouts and river houseboad cruises. That ultimately led to my serving as Executive Director of a clothing optional, human growth center in Topanga Canyon, Los Angeles. My experiences there eventually impelled me to pursue a Ph.D in Psychology with a speciality of counseling in alternative lifestyles. From the time I read those two books and other's be those authors, I never looked back and never regretted the changes that occurred in how I chose to live my life.

"Pilgrim" opened this discussion with the subject of nudity and I hope others will address that aspect of Heinlein's writings as well. And there are so many other controversial concepts championed by that great thinker that this thread could continue almost indefinitely and never scratch the surface of all that could be discussed in depth... Particularly his arguments on incest, bi-sexuality, marriage and family structures, government, religion and on and on and on...

SlyFox

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Re: Heinlein and Nudity

His writings and obvious convictions on the subject of nudity in our society were a startling revelation for me when I first came across and became enamoured with "Stranger In A Strange Land". As I said in my opening post to this thread. That book had a profound, life changing effect on me in the mid-to-late 1970's. Up to that time I had been ostensibly a very conservative individual. After reading "Stranger" for the first time (and "Proposition 31" by Robert Rimmer, I resigned from the military, ended a 20 year marriage and joined an alternative lifestyles group known as "The Harrad Community and attended my first "clothing optional" campouts and river houseboad cruises. That ultimately led to my serving as Executive Director of a clothing optional, human growth center in Topanga Canyon, Los Angeles. My experiences there eventually impelled me to pursue a Ph.D in Psychology with a speciality of counseling in alternative lifestyles. From the time I read those two books and other's be those authors, I never looked back and never regretted the changes that occurred in how I chose to live my life.

SlyFox

I want to add that I have an honor of becoming a email friend of Robert Rimmer for a ,alas, very short time before he died few years ago. I was very impressed and moved by that title Proposition 31. This lead me to show my gnostic erotic art to him and he loved my art. He urged me to publish a book of my art so that more people can see sex as sacred ritual of community between individuals and that he would like a copy.. But his death came rather suddenly as I understand.

One thing Heinlein stressed about nudity is that it should be seen as a fashion statment in that it express a man's individuality. Plus, exposing your body to sun, wind and earth also build up your body's immune system. I read that some doctors are starting to believe that the farm kids' exposure to weak skin infections from animals in the dirt help teach their immune system on how to tell the difference betwwen the weak and bad infections so that they suffer far less allegies. I like the idea of cities where most if not all people are nude and decorated with body paint or jewerly or tasteful scarfs. We never need clothles before we left Africa for foreign lands where the elements forces us to wear skins and other for protection. That was the first reason for clothling and have nothing to do with modesty.

 

[lustforlife74]

I've never had a chance to read any of his books, but people have suggested him to me. I have heard that he is a very free thinker. Does he only write Sci-Fi? How does he compare with Orwell and Huxley?

From what you say he sounds very utopian(sp)?

 

[sensualpilgrim]

I've never had a chance to read any of his books, but people have suggested him to me. I have heard that he is a very free thinker. Does he only write Sci-Fi? How does he compare with Orwell and Huxley?

From what you say he sounds very utopian(sp)?

Mainly science fiction because it made him a very good money. Heinlein was never utopian, he was a hard-nosed realist. He wrote about future that have very exciting promises but which at same time was bedeviled by old problem of corruption, power madness, mob fear of unknown and strange, and often plain laziness. Heinlein was a Navy man before forced into retirement by a serious illness while still early in his career. Before picking up his pen, he was in mining business, ran for a local office, help to design pressure suit that was a model for the space suit in WW2, and many others. Because he was very interested in evolution, especially the social aspects, he was pushing various threads he saw in his life into the future, creating many ways that humanity could evolute.

Some stories have very dark future of universal slavery, others which have earth in total chaos, and others, bright, clean and better place. But all futures depends on how an individual make his or her choice. He believe very seriously, and I agreed with him, that real freedom and better life require a man to form a small community (like family) and move away into the froniter where he is free to experiment with better life. Just about all stories contrasts the difference between capable and clear-thinking individual able to create a simple and free home and more complex (which make it more likely to be corrupt) society in which the masses lose interest in freedom and became more interest in politics and welfare as a means of getting security. This kind of society tends to fall into dicatorship. But Heinlein, unlike Orwell and Huxley, was very confident about few individuals rising above the mess. Recent history has beared him out, especially in complexity theory, which show that a small change can have major results in whole system by feedbacks. That mean even if Bush decides to declare marital law today, many people will still be able to escape to freedom because no power, no matter how advanced their tools, can keep track of whole picture. Soviet Union fell apart because they cannot handle all information, it's humanly impossible. Same results will happen to any other dicatorships.

 

[fgarvb1]

I Grok this thread.

Give them jingle jangle cobber!

 

[Mysticcal]

I just had to post. I love Heinlein.....but guess I am a minority among his fans in that Stanger in a Strange Land is one of my least favorites. I have read it a couple of times, and appreciated more with each reading, but it never really grabs me.

Some of my favorites are The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Friday, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls......LOL and a dozen others.

Not sure if I will have much to contribute here, as I love to read, and Heinlein is my favorite author, but I don't tend to analyze what I like much, but I will be lurking.

 

[sensualpilgrim]

To Mythiccal

I just had to post. I love Heinlein.....but guess I am a minority among his fans in that Stanger in a Strange Land is one of my least favorites. I have read it a couple of times, and appreciated more with each reading, but it never really grabs me.

Some of my favorites are The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Friday, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls......LOL and a dozen others.

Not sure if I will have much to contribute here, as I love to read, and Heinlein is my favorite author, but I don't tend to analyze what I like much, but I will be lurking.

Nothing's wrong with your favorite, Beautiful Lady. My personal favorite is Time Enough and Friday and To Sail Beyond the Sunset. If you love Heinlein but don't want to discussion intelluctual issuses, you might be interested in my Lazarus Long Family Sexual Role Play at http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=3710946

We already got the Senior himself and his Mama. We need more players and you sound like you could fit in it! Maybe as Hazel Stone.

 

[Mysticcal]

Re: To Mythiccal

Nothing's wrong with your favorite, Beautiful Lady. My personal favorite is Time Enough and Friday and To Sail Beyond the Sunset. If you love Heinlein but don't want to discussion intelluctual issuses, you might be interested in my Lazarus Long Family Sexual Role Play at http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=3710946

We already got the Senior himself and his Mama. We need more players and you sound like you could fit in it! Maybe as Hazel Stone.

LOL I have never done that online, but that would be a character I would like, I love her feistiness. Time Enough is also one of my favorites..as well as To Sail Beyond.....just finished re-reading Time Enough last week actually. Love all his quotes

 

[IrishWolfhound]

I'm reasonably certain I've read everything RAH wrote by now. And I read Time Enough For Love and Number of the Beast more times than I can count.

 

[Mysticcal]

I especially love the convention at the end of Number of the Beast.....and the entire theory of being a figment of someone's imagination, but find myself skipping over a lot of the science in this one. Great story but if I start going through it carefully, then I find myself sitting there wanting to work through the math and science until I really get it LOL maybe some day when I have enough time.

 

[IrishWolfhound]

Yes...the math was just a little beyond me. I barely scraped thru HS algebra.

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Enginnering

I especially love the convention at the end of Number of the Beast.....and the entire theory of being a figment of someone's imagination, but find myself skipping over a lot of the science in this one. Great story but if I start going through it carefully, then I find myself sitting there wanting to work through the math and science until I really get it LOL maybe some day when I have enough time.

Mythiccal, what kind of enginnering do you do? Maybe I should get your cute ass up and help banging together a small passager rocketship like the Rolling Stones.

 

[Mysticcal]

Re: Enginnering

Mythiccal, what kind of enginnering do you do? Maybe I should get your cute ass up and help banging together a small passager rocketship like the Rolling Stones.

LOL would love to go to Mars and then check out the asteroid belts.....banging around in a small rocketship, what a way to live.

I studied a couple kinds of engineering, mainly environmental and a specialized field within civil.....nothing that is going to help much with building that ship, but I would be useful in checking out new planets LOL.

 

[RomanHans]

Hmm...I have to admit that I started reading Heinlein in third grade, starting with 'Have Spacesuit, Will Travel,' but I'm not a big fan of his political commentary. In particular, some of his depictions in 'Starship Troopers' (gawd, why did they have to give that title to such a bad film?) are unduly harsh--but still interesting social commentary. I definitely am more in tune with his commentary on interpersonal relationships, love, etc.

I would also characterize Heinlein as the godfather of modern-day cyber-liberatarianism, which shows how influential he has become post mortem...

But no question--Number of the Beast, Friday, his Lazarus Long epic--all good reads!

Roman

 

[SlyFox]

Time Enough

IGreat story but if I start going through it carefully, then I find myself sitting there wanting to work through the math and science until I really get it LOL maybe some day when I have enough time.

Honey, as long as you have "time enough for love" the rest of it will pretty well take care of itself I think. And as for the "math and science" I pretty much slide through that just as I did in h.s. and college...

SlyFox

 

[Mysticcal]

Re: Time Enough

Honey, as long as you have "time enough for love" the rest of it will pretty well take care of itself I think. And as for the "math and science" I pretty much slide through that just as I did in h.s. and college...

SlyFox

That is so true. Live my life by that. LOL my geeky engineering background pops out now and then and I just have to understand what they are talking about.....but I am getting better about letting it slide by.

*waving Hi to Roman*

 

[KHAN-E]

Thanks to sly!

Thanks for starting this thread my friend.

I LUV Heinlein. More than any other writer, He has influenced my views on human sexuality, incest, nudity, societal mores, as well as science.

I am re-reading "Time Enough for Love". I felt I needed to, as I am Mama Maureen in pilgrim's SRP. I am enjoying every page.

Heinlein's use of Alternate Time-Lines, Parellel (spelling) Universes, and "Future History" (a term he personally hated) produced a body of work unequalled in Science Fiction.

I feel like a mother to this thread, as the discussion that spawned this thread began on one of my threads. I am glad that so many have already rung in with thoughts and opinions. I hope we can continue.

Someone mentioned the politics of "Starship Troopers". This raises the question. Was Heinlein a Fascist, a Libertarian, or what? Anybody care to weigh in on such a touchy subject?

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Re: Thanks to sly!

Someone mentioned the politics of "Starship Troopers". This raises the question. Was Heinlein a Fascist, a Libertarian, or what? Anybody care to weigh in on such a touchy subject?

My answer is that Heinlein is a small-l libertarian who leans more to anarchist viewpoint. But far more important is that he is a true free thinker and humanist which mean he is fearlessly in exploring many possiblities. In many of his writings, he deals with one-world government, argaian community, revolution, powerful bad corporations, noble corproation CEOs, spies, etc etc. Starship is just one of them. Starship Troopers is not my favorite but I did read it carefully. What strike me is that in this "fascist" earth there is no draft and no "us vs. them" between humans like Nazi vs. Jews. In fact, you are perfectly free to live your life as you wish. The only limit to that life is that you cannot vote unless you first serve as (VERY important!) in army OR civil service. Even then, you cannot vote until you retire from the service which show Heinlein's cleverness because at the time of this novel he must has noticed that the biggest interest group in favor of greater government growth and its oppression is the government workers themselves.

As he stated it in the novel, this earth government was created by homecoming soldiers who saw the horror of war and were determined to never allow such bloodletting again. They need some kind of government that can actually promote human peace rather than war. Another reason why vote and offices were limited to vets was the fact that there alway has been chicken hawks who never fight a battle or kill and who still would recklessly demand a war for one poor reason or another. Bush and his vice-president are two such men in their blood demand for Iraq war even though they sneaked out of any actual miltary service such as Bush fearlessly search the blue sky of Texas for any dirty, rotton Red Chinesse planes having a sneak attack during Vietnam War in "honorable" service to Texas National Guard. Same thing with Republican John Rockfeller who stronly support the civil war in order to get hand on all those tax dollars (South was the cash cow back then and North the poor backwater) but turned around and pay $300 (about $3,000 today) to avoid the draft. Which mean the poor Irishs get the honor of getting killed. Men who actually kill in war tends to be very slow in actually starting a fight because they know there are some thing you can't undo.

Finally, the main reason this novel read like a fascist novel is that it is really a novel about the miltary culture, not future or earth. It's about how one Latino boy decided to join the marines in spite of his wealthy, non-voter father's wishes, and how he must learn how to become strong in both spirit and body, and even more vital how he learn to behave properly as both independent human AND warrior in such a way that ensure his own survial and the survival of his corps. None of the important idea about miltary culture is new, most of stuff are what Heinlein learned when studying at Annapolis's Navel Academy. Much of the themes in this novel is also covered in "Tunnel in the Sky" and "Starman Jones".

That's my imput!

 

[lustforlife74]

Mainly science fiction because it made him a very good money. Heinlein was never utopian, he was a hard-nosed realist. He wrote about future that have very exciting promises but which at same time was bedeviled by old problem of corruption, power madness, mob fear of unknown and strange, and often plain laziness. Heinlein was a Navy man before forced into retirement by a serious illness while still early in his career. Before picking up his pen, he was in mining business, ran for a local office, help to design pressure suit that was a model for the space suit in WW2, and many others. Because he was very interested in evolution, especially the social aspects, he was pushing various threads he saw in his life into the future, creating many ways that humanity could evolute.

Some stories have very dark future of universal slavery, others which have earth in total chaos, and others, bright, clean and better place. But all futures depends on how an individual make his or her choice. He believe very seriously, and I agreed with him, that real freedom and better life require a man to form a small community (like family) and move away into the froniter where he is free to experiment with better life. Just about all stories contrasts the difference between capable and clear-thinking individual able to create a simple and free home and more complex (which make it more likely to be corrupt) society in which the masses lose interest in freedom and became more interest in politics and welfare as a means of getting security. This kind of society tends to fall into dicatorship. But Heinlein, unlike Orwell and Huxley, was very confident about few individuals rising above the mess. Recent history has beared him out, especially in complexity theory, which show that a small change can have major results in whole system by feedbacks. That mean even if Bush decides to declare marital law today, many people will still be able to escape to freedom because no power, no matter how advanced their tools, can keep track of whole picture. Soviet Union fell apart because they cannot handle all information, it's humanly impossible. Same results will happen to any other dicatorships.

"life require a man to form a small community (like family) and move away into the froniter where he is free to experiment with better life."

I don't disagree, I'm a bit of a 'libertarian' myself.

Where are there froniter's left? Where can a man with little or no money go to set up his community?

Money seems to be the catch-22, without it you can't make it. A mind, creativity, rebellion, and drive will more times then not lead someone into the gutter not to a free life. Society might just be the problem.

Just a few things to knaw on. To pass the time.

Once I finish Kipiling, I'll pick up Heinlein.

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Money and Mind

"life require a man to form a small community (like family) and move away into the froniter where he is free to experiment with better life."

Money seems to be the catch-22, without it you can't make it. A mind, creativity, rebellion, and drive will more times then not lead someone into the gutter not to a free life. Society might just be the problem.

Money is not a problem. Money is a creation of your own mind. What is gold in nature? Just a shiny yellow metel trapped in the rock. It take a mind to become attracted to the gold's shine and the mind to seek to melt it out of rock in order to claim the metal. Government do not make money, it only print a nice looking I.O.U. notes. You make money by your act of making a contract with another party. Money is a symbol of consensual agreement because if the other party want what you are offering, then it's as good as gold. So, no, money is not a problem. What you and I need is to learn how to create relationships that profits both sides. That is the secret to making money.

 

[lustforlife74]

Re: Money and Mind

Money is not a problem. Money is a creation of your own mind. What is gold in nature? Just a shiny yellow metel trapped in the rock. It take a mind to become attracted to the gold's shine and the mind to seek to melt it out of rock in order to claim the metal. Government do not make money, it only print a nice looking I.O.U. notes. You make money by your act of making a contract with another party. Money is a symbol of consensual agreement because if the other party want what you are offering, then it's as good as gold. So, no, money is not a problem. What you and I need is to learn how to create relationships that profits both sides. That is the secret to making money.

"Government does not make money, it only print a nice looking I.O.U. notes."

Agreed, the philosophy is sound, money is a creation of faith.

Have you ever tried to live without it? Money that is. It is not possible.

Henry Miller, put it well: Money we are lulled by it, dulled by it, it's more money or not enough money, but it's always money, money, money...

"You make money by your act of making a contract with another party. Money is a symbol of consensual agreement because if the other party want what you are offering, then it's as good as gold."

To make a contract between people assumes good faith on both parties. Many times the good faith is not there.

"What you and I need is to learn how to create relationships that profits both sides. That is the secret to making money."

Many times it favors one party much more then the other. A matter of fact, not politics.

Thanks, Sensual. Have a good night. Have you ever thought about being a lawyer? You have the art of retoric down.

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Re: Re: Money and Mind

"Government does not make money, it only print a nice looking I.O.U. notes."

Agreed, the philosophy is sound, money is a creation of faith.

Have you ever tried to live without it? Money that is. It is not possible.

Henry Miller, put it well: Money we are lulled by it, dulled by it, it's more money or not enough money, but it's always money, money, money...

"You make money by your act of making a contract with another party. Money is a symbol of consensual agreement because if the other party want what you are offering, then it's as good as gold."

To make a contract between people assumes good faith on both parties. Many times the good faith is not there.

"What you and I need is to learn how to create relationships that profits both sides. That is the secret to making money."

Many times it favors one party much more then the other. A matter of fact, not politics.

Thanks, Sensual. Have a good night. Have you ever thought about being a lawyer? You have the art of retoric down.

Then you just find another folks to make contract with. You and I do that all the time. Making money is just another learning process like learning how to walk. I try to land my feet on the side, I fall, I get up and I try again until I discover that landing on my neel first offer the best way to get proper balance for walking. The same way with money which was discoved by the market throught long trial and error.