Conservatives?

[Roxanne Appleby]

Do you understand that the United States of America is bankrupt?


Balance Sheet
The United States of America

Assets.....................................Liabilities

..............................................Social Security.....$11,000,000,000,000
..............................................Medicare.............. 66,000,000,000,000
..............................................Treasury Debt.........9,000,000,000,000

.........................................Total Liabilities......$86,000,000,000,000

Relax!

The first two aren't real "liabilities." They're politicians' promises.

Feel better now?

You won't if you're depending on them, but anyone foolish enough to depend on politicians' promises without making contingency plans, um, shouldn't be surprised to find themselves coming up short.

There's gonna be a whole lotta "haircuts" given in this country in the next few decades. For starters, portions of those bennies are virtually certain to be made "means tested" at some point.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

secondly, the Burkean conservative has no problem *in principle* with something like government directed old age insurance. many 'social welfare' schemes originated in Germany with the Kaiser.

I find it fascinating that in coming from very different intellectual "dimensions," Burke and Hayek came to very similar conclusions about society and public policy. Burke's appreciation of the depth and interconnectedness of evolved social institutions, and Hayek's deep thinking on "disbursed knowledge," the "knowledge problem" and the limits of central planning, and related matters, brought them to very similar conclusions. Hayek was dissed by more libertarian-mined folk because he was not opposed to some social welfare schemes.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

'Conservative' is merely a label and what it means changes constantly.

Example. 1 This woman was a constant environmentalist from her days as a research chemist in the 1950's
2 As Minister for education she executed the most radical change in policy for 100 years by driving through the move to centrally controlled comprehensive High Schools(Socialist policy of the previous government)

3 She was in favour of choice for women on abortion.(regretably she did not apply it to her own son)

4 Though brought up as a nonconformist christian she rarely attended or took an interest(publically) in religion.

Her name - Margaret Thatcher

Conservative is a label applied to a person usually to distinguish them from more doctinaire thinkers. The so called 'real'conservatives in the US are doctrinaire, radical fundamentalists, or to use a more old fashioned and strictly accurate term they are fascists.

Per my first post in this thread, you have to distinguish whether you're using the term as a political label or to describe a certain philosophical tendency. What you say here applies to the former.

The whole "conservative/liberal" continuum is such an inpoverished model. It gets absurd at times, as when the media used to refer to Stalinist hardliners in the Gorbachev era as "conservatives." The two-dimension, two-axis analysis, Nolan chart or whatever, is much better. Personal freedom on one axis, economic freedom on the other, each individual occupying a point in one of the four quadrants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_chart

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

i think that's a good point, cold. from a little reading of Burke, he was NOT doctrinaire. he didn't believe you could REASON your way to the solution to a social problem (as the Ayn Rand folks do).

although there are a handful of somewhat 'burkean' conservatives, the usual self labeled "true conservative [US]" holds various doctrines, e.g. that the only sales tax, not the income tax, is valid; that the state should never sanction a marriage what was not man-woman traditional one.

Related to my last post, most citizens don't have any consistent set of political principles, but instead have disconnected collections of biases. Political parties absolutely have no unified principles; they are political "entrepreneurs," forever trimming this position and adding that one in the pursuit of power-winnign coalitions.

Regarding sales tax vs. income tax, the former is more economically efficient (which is a different matter than "valid.") Economic liberty-types are big on economic efficiency.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Related to my last post, most citizens don't have any consistent set of political principles, but instead have disconnected collections of biases. Political parties absolutely have no unified principles; they are political "entrepreneurs," forever trimming this position and adding that one in the pursuit of power-winnign coalitions.

Regarding sales tax vs. income tax, the former is more economically efficient (which is a different matter than "valid.") Economic liberty-types are big on economic efficiency.

"Sales taxes"
is a subject I know about, and it is probably the most regressive, except maybe social security. At least it can be. Whether it is or not depends on what is exempt from tax and what isn't. If it is a VAT, it is absolutely regressive.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

"Sales taxes"
is a subject I know about, and it is probably the most regressive, except maybe social security. At least it can be. Whether it is or not depends on what is exempt from tax and what isn't. If it is a VAT, it is absolutely regressive.

I'm not necessarily a fan of the so-called "fair tax" or national sales tax, but it gets around than by giving every soul a "prebate" worth that makes the first $20,000 in purchases essentially tax free.

Tax efficiency is all about the incentives a tax creates. Income taxes are a disincentive to socially useful things like work, study, invest and take risks. Sales taxes are a disincentive to consumption. Adam Smith pointed out that some forms of consumption are hardly optional, so should not be taxed. Food is exempt from sales tax in many (most?) places.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I'm not necessarily a fan of the so-called "fair tax" or national sales tax, but it gets around than by giving every soul a "prebate" worth that makes the first $20,000 in purchases essentially tax free.

Tax efficiency is all about the incentives a tax creates. Income taxes are a disincentive to socially useful things like work, study, invest and take risks. Sales taxes are a disincentive to consumption. Adam Smith pointed out that some forms of consumption are hardly optional, so should not be taxed. Food is exempt from sales tax in many (most?) places.

I know about sales taxes in CA and groceries are exempt, but restaurant meals are not. Other things are also exempt,including some necessities. Gasoline is taxable and clothing, and some fuel, depending how it is delivered. It's not a VAT because the sales tax only applies to sales to consumers, although this includes machinery being used in factories.