Consensual Non-Consent

[ultramarineblue]

i don't pretend.

my consent is implied when i show up. Whatever happens after that is just what happens. Sometimes he has to take me by force and sometimes he doesn't and sometimes we're somewhere in between. i just do what i feel.

That makes sense. This discussion is definitely making me think about how we individually define words.

 

[ultramarineblue]

Yeah, that.

There's "oh, no, please, I'm just a little girl *giggle, giggle*," and then there's "you sonofabitch, when you let me up, I'm going to kill you." The first is just playing. The second is non-con.

I think this example is pretty good at differentiating the two.

Personally, the first would make me want to hit my head against the wall.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I really don't do well when someone is pretending. I think that is truly what they want.

that's it exactly for me. what they truly want is the fake me, not the real me, and that is a very very icky and invalidating feeling. *shudders* no thanks.

 

[ataxia.girl]

i definitely get rape fantasies...at least, REAL rape fantasies. i don't get the appeal of play-acting rape or "consensual non-consent." of course, the overwhelming majority of those who claim to have rape fantasies, truly have consensual non-consent fantasies...weird. i suppose i'm the only one who fantasizes about the actual suffering, debasement and outright terror that only real rape can cause. *shrug*

i fantasize about that. The ultimate objectification.

i go through long periods where i wonder if it would even be possible for me to be raped. Its like i just don't care. Other times i am in a "healthier" place and i don't think i would react by dissociating.

Luckily i don't really find myself in situations where i would be likely to get raped. If i wasn't expected to spend every night with Daddy that i travel or didn't have a Daddy i would likely be in a lot more trouble in this area.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Really?

Perhaps there's some "inside" information I am not aware of. I am very intrigued by this topic, so I was quick to interject into this thread. Perhaps I just made a fool out of myself?

no, just made a false assumption, but one anyone else who didn't know any better would make.

rape is far more comfortable for me than this "consensual sex" stuff everyone goes on and on about, because rape is what i was taught first and best. it makes sense to me and fits with my perception of humankind and the world. consensual sex doesn't, and continues to leave me confused every time i engage in it.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I don't "get" consensual non-consent. It evades me, and I wonder what is missing from my oh-so-domly personality when all the cool kids have rape fantasies. It's just not my thing.

Ours are more forced incest\captivity stuff. Who knows why we get off on the things we do but i've found its pretty hard to change what turns us on and what doesn't.

i don't think what turns us on is really a choice.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Yeah, that.

There's "oh, no, please, I'm just a little girl *giggle, giggle*," and then there's "you sonofabitch, when you let me up, I'm going to kill you." The first is just playing. The second is non-con.

interesting, and thanks for the examples. but i can't relate to either emotional state. i don't play, and i don't resist or want to fight back. i just take it, accept it, always. the difference is all internal...sometimes i'm taking it and wishing it would last forever, sometimes i'm taking it and wishing i had never been born. but regardless, i accept the fact that i just have to take it.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Not necessarily a bad thing. There are so many terms for what eventually amounts to the same thing that I just get confused and angry and a little hungry by the whole shebang. A particular favourite is the recurring debate about whether girl X is a submissive or a slave or whatnot when half the people I see here define each of those differently and the other half have different and irreconcilable opinions on the question to begin with.

it makes me hungry too.

 

[ataxia.girl]

no, just made a false assumption, but one anyone else who didn't know any better would make.

rape is far more comfortable for me than this "consensual sex" stuff everyone goes on and on about, because rape is what i was taught first and best. it makes sense to me and fits with my perception of humankind and the world. consensual sex doesn't, and continues to leave me confused every time i engage in it.

i'm kinda with you on this and i wasn't taught that way. Most of the time consensual feels fake. Like i have to pretend i am consenting and and all into it when on the inside i'm screaming.

i have a virginal bride repressed frigid mormon complex that is so much an ingrained part of my sexuality now that i don't think its going to go away. It has become what turns me on now that i actually enjoy sex... whatever enjoy means. i don't need it to be particularly brutal i just need the expectation that i am enjoying myself, and their need for me to, to be removed.

i'll tell you when i knew things were getting better for me in the sex department. When i no longer felt the least bit of self consciousness or hesitancy to pull out my vibrator and vibrate next to Daddy while he slept or watched TV or helped me along.

 

[ataxia.girl]

interesting, and thanks for the examples. but i can't relate to either emotional state. i don't play, and i don't resist or want to fight back. i just take it, accept it, always. the difference is all internal...sometimes i'm taking it and wishing it would last forever, sometimes i'm taking it and wishing i had never been born. but regardless, i accept the fact that i just have to take it.

Hmm your statement about sometimes taking it and wishing it would last forever and sometimes taking it but wishing it had never started really resonates with me. In each case you are passive. Most of the time this is how i am even if i am energetically sucking his cock.

i don't fight every time i wish it wasn't happening, in fact most of the time i don't. i'm not even sure why sometimes i need to but it is a compulsion i find really difficult to control and with Daddy there is no need to because he is going to take what is his whether i fight or not.

i think its just a need to let off steam and get some pent up frustration out.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm not sure if what we do fits within consensual non-consent. It's more like I fight or push back a little. I definitely don't feel like I'm playing. There's also less fighting back and more sit there and take it.

There's a particular group on FetLife dedicated to rape in which everyone posts at length about how they want REAL rape, no really, REAL rape (!), but to me if you really want it, it's not real rape. I mean, when I looked at the posts, the whole thing just seemed like a weird charade.

For me, I just feel like I am myself in the moment. I have not been told that I need to act like I like it if I don't, so I don't. And he gets off on whatever suffering I'm going through, whatever I'm taking, etc.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I'm not sure if what we do fits within consensual non-consent. It's more like I fight or push back a little. I definitely don't feel like I'm playing. There's also less fighting back and more sit there and take it.

i usually end up crying if its happening and i really don't want it whether i expend the energy to fight or not just depends on my state of mind at the time. On some level i know its pointless but i don't know. i just get really angry and desperate so i fight, hard, for awhile and then i usually give up and cry instead.

 

[insert____here]

as a person who has suffered rape...let's just say it's very numbing. and far more than just physically damaging.

however, i too am a firm believer in consent by presence. if i show up my consent is implied. whether i'm screaming stop stop or not, if i like it or not, whatever, i showed up and gave up my rights at the door. whether that's rape or not i truly can't answer, but i'd be inclined to say no.

D is very gentle though and not really inclined to playing to this kind of thing. if he truly thought i didn't want to play any more, he'd stop.

 

[intothewoods]

i usually end up crying if its happening and i really don't want it whether i expend the energy to fight or not just depends on my state of mind at the time. On some level i know its pointless but i don't know. i just get really angry and desperate so i fight, hard, for awhile and then i usually give up and cry instead.

I don't cry. I do whimper a lot. And I don't put up much of a physical fight, I should add that. It's often pretty primal.

 

[ownedsubgal]

There's a particular group on FetLife dedicated to rape in which everyone posts at length about how they want REAL rape, no really, REAL rape (!), but to me if you really want it, it's not real rape. I mean, when I looked at the posts, the whole thing just seemed like a weird charade.

For me, I just feel like I am myself in the moment. I have not been told that I need to act like I like it if I don't, so I don't. And he gets off on whatever suffering I'm going through, whatever I'm taking, etc.

it's hard to explain so i get why it wouldn't make sense to most. i have never been raped and thought "oh yeah, that was just what i needed." i have never been aroused in the process of being raped (not that that defines anything, just putting it out there). being raped just kills your spirit and constantly eats away at you, stealing little bits and pieces of you that you can never get back. or at least, i have never figured out how. i don't "want" that. "want" is another strange word. i don't want to be raped like i may want some ice cream for dessert. it is not a desire, it is not the seeking out of pleasure. it is "want" in the same sense a suicidal person wants to die. they don't truly WANT death, but it is seen as the only solution to their problems. it is the best available option.

i fantasize about rape, as a rape victim/survivor, because again it is just most familiar and natural to me, what i know best. but deep inside i badly wish it were not. because, i do not want to be raped. i'm just not mentally or emotionally equipped to deal with any other options.

 

[intothewoods]

it's hard to explain so i get why it wouldn't make sense to most. i have never been raped and thought "oh yeah, that was just what i needed." i have never been aroused in the process of being raped (not that that defines anything, just putting it out there). being raped just kills your spirit and constantly eats away at you, stealing little bits and pieces of you that you can never get back. or at least, i have never figured out how. i don't "want" that. "want" is another strange word. i don't want to be raped like i may want some ice cream for dessert. it is not a desire, it is not the seeking out of pleasure. it is "want" in the same sense a suicidal person wants to die. they don't truly WANT death, but it is seen as the only solution to their problems. it is the best available option.

i fantasize about rape, as a rape victim/survivor, because again it is just most familiar and natural to me, what i know best. but deep inside i badly wish it were not. because, i do not want to be raped. i'm just not mentally or emotionally equipped to deal with any other options.

I get what you're saying, but I'm doubting the people who say they are aroused by "real" rape, and are then setting up elaborate consensual non-con scenes that they control. It seems false.

As to what you're describing, you say you are not aroused by rape, yet you fantasize about it? How do you feel when your fantasizing about rape if not aroused?

 

[kaycee217]

i don't pretend.

my consent is implied when i show up. Whatever happens after that is just what happens. Sometimes he has to take me by force and sometimes he doesn't and sometimes we're somewhere in between. i just do what i feel.

How do you reconcile you "doing what you feel" with the "non-consent" aspect of your sex life?

I've also understood consent as being made by just showing up or allowing oneself to be put in a situation.

Fascinating stuff.

 

[ataxia.girl]

How do you reconcile you "doing what you feel" with the "non-consent" aspect of your sex life?

i don't understand the question. What is there to reconcile?

If i don't want to be fucked and i feel like fighting i do. If i don't want to be fucked and i don't feel like fighting i don't. If i want to be fucked which in my head really just means i want affection i behave differently.

i change my mind during any of the above scenarios then i behave accordingly except i really don't even like to use the word "behave."

i just am.

 

[kaycee217]

i don't understand the question. What is there to reconcile?

If i don't want to be fucked and i feel like fighting i do. If i don't want to be fucked and i don't feel like fighting i don't. If i want to be fucked which in my head really just means i want affection i behave differently.

i change my mind during any of the above scenarios then i behave accordingly except i really don't even like to use the word "behave."

i just am.

I guess I misunderstood you originally. If you really did what you wanted, you would stop the sex if that's what you wished (that was how I was approaching what you said). But now I see you're referring to doing what you want with respect to how you respond when having sex.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I don't cry. I do whimper a lot. And I don't put up much of a physical fight, I should add that. It's often pretty primal.

i have put up a lot of fight and other times not so much. i know the outcome so often i don't bother. Sometimes its fun fighting and sometimes i am very angry and would bite his ear or his lip off if i could. i actually have bit his lip once before because i was mad. i just come unhinged and go a bit feral.

The day Daddy raped me in the ass i tried to get away several times but it wasn't really like fighting. i knew i couldn't. It was just this sort of silent scuffling. Was so surreal. It hurt so bad. At one point i finally squeaked out an owie owie owie owie. i was really scared, too scared to really fight or talk or yell or anything. i was also just having trouble processing the whole thing and even staying present because it was so shocking and confusing.

What we do has some incestuous undertones though. The idea that you can't really get away from Daddy so what is the point of trying.

 

[Homburg]

i definitely get rape fantasies...at least, REAL rape fantasies. i don't get the appeal of play-acting rape or "consensual non-consent." of course, the overwhelming majority of those who claim to have rape fantasies, truly have consensual non-consent fantasies...weird. i suppose i'm the only one who fantasizes about the actual suffering, debasement and outright terror that only real rape can cause. *shrug*

Yeah, not my thing. It just doesn't hit my buttons. You aren't really the only one though, else it would not continue to pop up in various threads again and again.

Eastern Sun has written some particularly cogent thoughts on rape along these lines in her thread. You've probably seen them already though, as I am pretty sure that I've seen you in that thread.


--

they will do that at times, for no reason other than the need was there, you were there, and they can. and isn't that wonderful? bloody bathroom trips aside (and trust me i can relate as that is the only way my body responds to anal for the last 5 years), isn't it wonderful that you can give that to him and that he wants it from YOU in particular?

See, now what ataxia.girl described there is not what I think of when I think consensual non-consent. Sure, he didn't ask permission, and she wasn't enjoying it, but, as she said in a later post, showing up implies consent.

I say this because, as much as I've said that I don't do consensual non-consent, there are many, many times when I don't ask. Taking is just the order of the day. And often times it's not fun for the person I'm taking from. But there's never a moment where consent is withdrawn, so it is not non-consent, if that makes sense.

At the end of the day, when I wake up erect and aroused, whomever is in bed with me is likely to get fucked*, and I am not all that worried about waking them up first. I figure my cock in some orifice will do the waking up job just dandy. That's not non-consent or rape play. That's just thursday at three in the morning.

I think it is the idea of equating "rape" to some sort of "play" that puts me off.


* - Yes, I'm not all that choosy when half-awake and aroused. Thus I am picky about who I occupy a bed with so as to prevent embarrassing moments.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I get what you're saying, but I'm doubting the people who say they are aroused by "real" rape, and are then setting up elaborate consensual non-con scenes that they control. It seems false.

that reads very false to me too, and not something i can understand or relate to.

As to what you're describing, you say you are not aroused by rape, yet you fantasize about it? How do you feel when your fantasizing about rape if not aroused?

when i fantasize about rape i am usually aroused. i am not, never have been and never could be aroused by the act of actually being raped. even looking back on times i have been raped, even the very worst times when i was a child, i may become aroused. when i see a story on CNN or Dateline or whatever about a woman being brutally raped or a child having gone through the same things i did or worse...i often become aroused. i can't help it, that is my involuntary physical response. being aroused means nothing for me, i do not have the desire or need for sexual release that most seem to. the arousal is not what anything is about anyway, i do not fantasize about how "hot" it would be to be raped. it is not hot, not fun, not sexy, and no part of my brain pretends that it is.

i do not fantasize about what would make me hot, i could give a flock what would make me hot. i fantasize about what makes sense to me, what feels right and natural and what i feel i deserve. what feels good, physically or mentally, just does not come into the picture.

in my teen years, i would sometimes place myself in situations where i would be very vulnerable to sexual abuse by men. not because i found the idea exciting or arousing, far from it, it terrified me. i didn't want to be out in public, i didn't want scary horny men to look at me or touch me. but the wounded part of me has always craved the suffering and shock which rape causes. it is affirmation for all the worst things i think about myself (yes, this is all you're good for...yes, this is what you deserve...yes, better you than someone important, etc.). it is honest. it is familiar. it is life as i know it.

this may make no sense whatsoever to those who are sexually wired more normally, and again it is very difficult to explain, but i tried.

 

[Netzach]

I feel kind of embarrassed because I feel like horny slutballs R us nympho girl, but I can't really get my head around "not wanting it." Sexually. Yeah, I have experienced this, at the hands of giant doses of steroids, but even when I'm in a good bit of pain, if M or T are like "sex?" I'm trying to figure out how to work it.

No, I have not, to my knowledge, been violated, but that's not mandatory for liking force or wanting/needing it, as the polls indicate.

 

[Netzach]

that reads very false to me too, and not something i can understand or relate to.



when i fantasize about rape i am usually aroused. i am not, never have been and never could be aroused by the act of actually being raped. even looking back on times i have been raped, even the very worst times when i was a child, i may become aroused. when i see a story on CNN or Dateline or whatever about a woman being brutally raped or a child having gone through the same things i did or worse...i often become aroused. i can't help it, that is my involuntary physical response. being aroused means nothing for me, i do not have the desire or need for sexual release that most seem to. the arousal is not what anything is about anyway, i do not fantasize about how "hot" it would be to be raped. it is not hot, not fun, not sexy, and no part of my brain pretends that it is.

i do not fantasize about what would make me hot, i could give a flock what would make me hot. i fantasize about what makes sense to me, what feels right and natural and what i feel i deserve. what feels good, physically or mentally, just does not come into the picture.

in my teen years, i would sometimes place myself in situations where i would be very vulnerable to sexual abuse by men. not because i found the idea exciting or arousing, far from it, it terrified me. i didn't want to be out in public, i didn't want scary horny men to look at me or touch me. but the wounded part of me has always craved the suffering and shock which rape causes. it is affirmation for all the worst things i think about myself (yes, this is all you're good for...yes, this is what you deserve...yes, better you than someone important, etc.). it is honest. it is familiar. it is life as i know it.

this may make no sense whatsoever to those who are sexually wired more normally, and again it is very difficult to explain, but i tried.

Aha moment.

When I transpose it onto other kinds of suffering, in the case of H, it makes a lot of sense in my brain, which otherwise would not get it at all. I think "catharsis" is sometimes too hyperbolic a word for people, but I think that's kind of the arousal/relief/rightness feeling for people sometimes.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Yeah, not my thing. It just doesn't hit my buttons. You aren't really the only one though, else it would not continue to pop up in various threads again and again.

Eastern Sun has written some particularly cogent thoughts on rape along these lines in her thread. You've probably seen them already though, as I am pretty sure that I've seen you in that thread.

yes i do realize i'm not truly the only one, just feels that way at times when these non-consent/rape, play vs. not play topics come up.

on the showing up implies consent thing...not sure how i feel about that one. i think a person can very much hate their circumstances, hate where they are and the life they are living with another person, but never dare think of not "showing up," or leaving. does that mean they are consenting? i sure hope not.

on the other hand, i believe in irrevocable consent. you make a vow once and that's it, period. what you may feel or how badly you may not want it anymore 5, 10 or 20 yrs down the line is irrelevant, you made that vow.

in the grand scheme of things, considering the complexity of human relations, i just don't think consent means a hill of beans.