Consensual Non-Consent

[ataxia.girl]

I say this because, as much as I've said that I don't do consensual non-consent, there are many, many times when I don't ask. Taking is just the order of the day. And often times it's not fun for the person I'm taking from. But there's never a moment where consent is withdrawn, so it is not non-consent, if that makes sense.

At the end of the day, when I wake up erect and aroused, whomever is in bed with me is likely to get fucked*, and I am not all that worried about waking them up first. I figure my cock in some orifice will do the waking up job just dandy. That's not non-consent or rape play. That's just thursday at three in the morning.

i've always assumed your girls didn't tell you to get off them, try to get away or otherwise try to disrupt the "taking."

For us its like yeah i signed up for whatever happens when i showed up but i'm not sure that is the same as active obedience and availability. He had a fat lip for 3 days after i bit him and it wasn't a bite of passion either but then when he shows up i figure he also consents to whatever happens.

 

[ataxia.girl]

this may make no sense whatsoever to those who are sexually wired more normally, and again it is very difficult to explain, but i tried.

We repeat patterns. There is little doubt in my mind why i left a church where i felt like chattel only to enter a sexual lifestyle where i am "property."

Its not really rocket science. Its just human nature.

in the grand scheme of things, considering the complexity of human relations, i just don't think consent means a hill of beans.

my husband and i talk about this a lot. That consent doesn't really even exist in so many cases where we assume it does. The mind is wired to attempt to accept and deal with its reality. That is what Stockholm syndrome is all about.

Kinda like i didn't really consent to being raised and indoctrinated a mormon even though they love to tell me i did. Give me a break. i have kids. i know how easy it is to manipulate them and they are pretty much hard wired to care what their parents think and want to please them.

 

[Homburg]

on the showing up implies consent thing...not sure how i feel about that one. i think a person can very much hate their circumstances, hate where they are and the life they are living with another person, but never dare think of not "showing up," or leaving. does that mean they are consenting? i sure hope not.

In the case I was referring to, ataxia.girl, showing up does imply consent, at least in my eyes. She goes through a fair amount to get time with her Daddy, and by coming back, she consents to the treatment she receives overall.

in the grand scheme of things, considering the complexity of human relations, i just don't think consent means a hill of beans.

Well, I think that property ownership doesn't mean a hill of beans in a political climate where Eminent Domain is such a common happenstance. But in both our cases, John Law believes in it, so certain measures have to be taken.

--

i've always assumed your girls didn't tell you to get off them, try to get away or otherwise try to disrupt the "taking."

Generally, no, but no one is perfect. There have been times where I've done something and it elicited a "No" response. Usually it's part of a whine and not conscious, but it has happened.

For us its like yeah i signed up for whatever happens when i showed up but i'm not sure that is the same as active obedience and availability. He had a fat lip for 3 days after i bit him and it wasn't a bite of passion either but then when he shows up i figure he also consents to whatever happens.

The idea of the two-way street vis a vis consent is an important one. I think most people look at it solely from the perspective of the bottom, but what the top consents to is equally important, if more commonly glossed over.

In this case, your behaviour patterns are given the big OK stamp every time he shows up, just as much as you OK his behaviours by your presence. Interesting concept.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Generally, no, but no one is perfect. There have been times where I've done something and it elicited a "No" response. Usually it's part of a whine and not conscious, but it has happened.

Yeah that's like soooo not what i'm talking about.

my Daddy loves to tell me i would crush a mortal man, that only an insensitive clod could survive as my Daddy. For him its just a bonus that these types of comments feed into my belief that no matter how much i don't like him i couldn't find another Daddy who was any better. He isn't averse to unhealthy attachment though. It all goes back to the incest theme. No matter what you do your father is always your father. i'll need to make a thread sometime because i often think BDSM folks have a pretty superficial understanding of the that particular kink, as well as ageplay in general (yes i know Homburg is now going to get hung up on the word "play").

Its not uncommon for me to tell him i hate him and throw something at him and i am sooo not pretending. i used to get so mad at him i would drop my phone regularly when we used to text a lot.

i'm not a nice girl when i'm mad.

You know what is interesting is there is this new line in my mind that so far i have not been willing to cross. i won't really disclose on a message board the things i say to Daddy, you know, the things i say that are true but really really hateful. i have that little girl protecting her Daddy thing going on. Its okay for me to think and say really horrible things about him but not anyone else.

When these lines come up its interesting to me because i never know if i'm going to end up crossing them or not.

As far as the consenting because we show up thing i want to be very clear that none of this was ever clearly articulated between us and still isn't. It just evolved. At no time did i say i consent when i show up to whatever you do and i expect the same in return. It is simply implied in the fact that we never ever talked about safewords or limits or any of that. He said he was my Daddy and he would never leave me and that was that.

But yeah we both have a hell of a lot of fun and believe me we both look forward to seeing each other.

 

[Cattypuss]

well first i have to say we are not into the "consensual non-consent" thing. actually that phrase really confuses me, the idea of pretending something is non-consensual when everyone knows that it is. [...]

BUT we are into straight up non-consent..or more clearly, him subjecting me to things or having me do things i absolutely do not want. "consent" is about the most irrelevant word in the english language as far as we're concerned, and within our relationship specifically an Owner does not require a slave's "consent." [...].

I have tried to get my head round this but I'm failing. Maybe the language is getting in the way... I dunno.

osg, at some point surely you consented to being his slave - and surely at that very point therefore you consented to non-consensual stuff (i.e. implicitly, by the very fact of consenting to become his slave, you gave your consent to whatever he might ever do to you, including the stuff you didn't want). So isn't everything he does to you in fact consensual non-consent?

I sense I'm being dim about this but I cannot make sense of your words.

 

[kaycee217]

I have tried to get my head round this but I'm failing. Maybe the language is getting in the way... I dunno.

osg, at some point surely you consented to being his slave - and surely at that very point therefore you consented to non-consensual stuff (i.e. implicitly, by the very fact of consenting to become his slave, you gave your consent to whatever he might ever do to you, including the stuff you didn't want). So isn't everything he does to you in fact consensual non-consent?

I sense I'm being dim about this but I cannot make sense of your words.

This is my understanding as well.

Just like soldiers in the United States have all enlisted and none of have been conscripted against their will, there are still plenty of times where the soldiers are ordered to do things they really do not want to do. There must be situations where the soldier believes if they follow orders, they will die. However, they have still consented to their situation despite not consenting to die, right?

 

[00Syd]

Seb and I get into some non-con stuff. I wasn't thinking of what we do in terms of non-con, but now that I think about it, it fits my definition of the term. Basically, there is stuff I don't want to do (Not stuff I actually want to do but will pretend that I don't want, but stuff that I actually want to do, or only have a limited tolerence for) and I've given Seb the OK to force me to do it anyway. That doesn't mean I want to do it, or will enjoy it in the moment, because I don't and I won't, but I know that everything will be fine in the end. While I may hate it in the moment, at the end of the day, there will be no permanent damage, he'll be happy, I'll be happy to have helped him be happy, and we'll hug and snuggle and it'll be good.

But this isn't like a "my will be done, slave" thing, or anything like that, its more similar to a pet that doesn't want to go to the vet but is forced to by its person, is in distress during the visit, and then is totally fine and happy afterward.

Sooo, yeah. That's the way we've been doing some things.

I'll be following the rest of this thread with interest.

 

[eastern sun]

Just like soldiers in the United States have all enlisted and none of have been conscripted against their will, there are still plenty of times where the soldiers are ordered to do things they really do not want to do. There must be situations where the soldier believes if they follow orders, they will die. However, they have still consented to their situation despite not consenting to die, right?

As grandiose as I know it sounds, I've used this thinking frequently to reconcile my own feelings, and often been comforted by the fact that whatever I was facing was "a pleasure walk in the park" compared to what conscripted soldiers face.

It also triggers this determination I have to keep myself alive, though, in spite of the apparent intentions of the one giving orders.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Resistance\Reluctance is probably a better label for what i meant. i didn't actually intend for this to become a consent debate although those can be interesting.

So if i rephrased the question to remove reference to consent it would be something more along the lines of:

For those pyls for whom obedience, maturity, and civil dialog within relationships with PYL's are any of you into Reluctance\Resistance? If so how to do achieve it without rebellion?

If your PYL was into it would you attempt to please them by attempting to become Reluctant\Resistant in a way that could be characterized as more than just pretend?

i would also add the following question:

As a PYL if you were into Reluctance\Resistance would you attempt to push your pyl to the point of resistance but not tell them why you were doing it? How would you get the message across that you were into this in a way that didn't risk the whole thing feeling manufactured.

i remember early on, before we even met in person, Daddy told me to do something which i thought was impossible. Up till then i had not really resisted much and had been very obedient. i remember he said "ah, resistance." i knew at that moment he liked it. i still didn't resist much. i was so used to wanting to be a good girl and be obedient and submit. Eventually though it just happened by itself but because of that one exchange i kinda knew it was okay to go there. i didn't go there because i thought he would like it. i went there because i was pissed off and frustrated he never did anything the way i wanted him to, or at least the way i thought he was supposed to

 

[ownedsubgal]

I have tried to get my head round this but I'm failing. Maybe the language is getting in the way... I dunno.

osg, at some point surely you consented to being his slave - and surely at that very point therefore you consented to non-consensual stuff (i.e. implicitly, by the very fact of consenting to become his slave, you gave your consent to whatever he might ever do to you, including the stuff you didn't want). So isn't everything he does to you in fact consensual non-consent?

I sense I'm being dim about this but I cannot make sense of your words.

Cattypuss, you're absolutely right that i consented to be his slave. that consent cannot be taken back, it is a done deal, he asked if i were willing and able to be his property for life, and i said yes. that was that. now i belong to him, and he has the right to do whatever he wants with his own property.

so yes the consent was there, it was given 9 years ago, and there is no turning back. i cannot say "i don't want to be here anymore," or on a given day, "i don't want to do this." well i suppose theoretically i could, but then i'd just be laughed at, beaten then have to do it anyway.

so in that sense, in the sense that i am his property, everything in consensual because i chose to be his property. however in the sense of desperately NOT wanting to do or be subjected to something, in the sense of dreading or hating something with every fiber of your being, there is plenty of "nonconsensual" stuff in our relationship.

i don't view that as "consensual non-consent," it is just the life of a slave.

and with that, the whole "consent" topic is officially a dead issue for me...sorry ataxia for the initial misunderstanding.

 

[ataxia.girl]

and with that, the whole "consent" topic is officially a dead issue for me...sorry ataxia for the initial misunderstanding.

my fault. Bad choice of terms in the original post.

 

[BiBunny]

Yeah that's like soooo not what i'm talking about.

my Daddy loves to tell me i would crush a mortal man, that only an insensitive clod could survive as my Daddy. For him its just a bonus that these types of comments feed into my belief that no matter how much i don't like him i couldn't find another Daddy who was any better. He isn't averse to unhealthy attachment though. It all goes back to the incest theme. No matter what you do your father is always your father. i'll need to make a thread sometime because i often think BDSM folks have a pretty superficial understanding of the that particular kink, as well as ageplay in general (yes i know Homburg is now going to get hung up on the word "play").

Its not uncommon for me to tell him i hate him and throw something at him and i am sooo not pretending. i used to get so mad at him i would drop my phone regularly when we used to text a lot.

i'm not a nice girl when i'm mad.

You know what is interesting is there is this new line in my mind that so far i have not been willing to cross. i won't really disclose on a message board the things i say to Daddy, you know, the things i say that are true but really really hateful. i have that little girl protecting her Daddy thing going on. Its okay for me to think and say really horrible things about him but not anyone else.

When these lines come up its interesting to me because i never know if i'm going to end up crossing them or not.

As far as the consenting because we show up thing i want to be very clear that none of this was ever clearly articulated between us and still isn't. It just evolved. At no time did i say i consent when i show up to whatever you do and i expect the same in return. It is simply implied in the fact that we never ever talked about safewords or limits or any of that. He said he was my Daddy and he would never leave me and that was that.

But yeah we both have a hell of a lot of fun and believe me we both look forward to seeing each other.

1.) I can relate to a good bit of this, in spite of the fact that our relationships are quite different. (Maybe it's a little girl thing?)

2.) I'd be really interested in such a thread if you decided to start it.

 

[intothewoods]

that reads very false to me too, and not something i can understand or relate to.



when i fantasize about rape i am usually aroused. i am not, never have been and never could be aroused by the act of actually being raped. even looking back on times i have been raped, even the very worst times when i was a child, i may become aroused. when i see a story on CNN or Dateline or whatever about a woman being brutally raped or a child having gone through the same things i did or worse...i often become aroused. i can't help it, that is my involuntary physical response. being aroused means nothing for me, i do not have the desire or need for sexual release that most seem to. the arousal is not what anything is about anyway, i do not fantasize about how "hot" it would be to be raped. it is not hot, not fun, not sexy, and no part of my brain pretends that it is.

i do not fantasize about what would make me hot, i could give a flock what would make me hot. i fantasize about what makes sense to me, what feels right and natural and what i feel i deserve. what feels good, physically or mentally, just does not come into the picture.

in my teen years, i would sometimes place myself in situations where i would be very vulnerable to sexual abuse by men. not because i found the idea exciting or arousing, far from it, it terrified me. i didn't want to be out in public, i didn't want scary horny men to look at me or touch me. but the wounded part of me has always craved the suffering and shock which rape causes. it is affirmation for all the worst things i think about myself (yes, this is all you're good for...yes, this is what you deserve...yes, better you than someone important, etc.). it is honest. it is familiar. it is life as i know it.

this may make no sense whatsoever to those who are sexually wired more normally, and again it is very difficult to explain, but i tried.

That all makes perfect sense to me, and, from what I've read, tracks what a lot of victims of sexual abuse feel and seek out.

I feel kind of embarrassed because I feel like horny slutballs R us nympho girl, but I can't really get my head around "not wanting it." Sexually. Yeah, I have experienced this, at the hands of giant doses of steroids, but even when I'm in a good bit of pain, if M or T are like "sex?" I'm trying to figure out how to work it.

No, I have not, to my knowledge, been violated, but that's not mandatory for liking force or wanting/needing it, as the polls indicate.

I totally get this. I'm thankfully not someone with a very low sex drive who is at times incapable of getting turned on. In fact, I'll always be turned on at the end of sex. For me, it's more that I am not in the mood to begin with, and so it's possible that I am "playing" at non-con at some level, despite what I said earlier. He's in the mood, and I'm neutral. He then enjoys just the rough having his way with me sex, and I'm not particulary obligated to show enthusiasm. There are times when I'm feeling kinda sullen and pissy, and in those times, I'm also not obligated to show enthusiasm. It sounds kind of lame to many, I'm sure, but it makes him hot and it makes me hot too. I do sometimes wonder if we're fucked up for never (or at least not for a while) having romantic sex. It's just become this groove that works for both of us. Plus I love that I can be really whatever I want during sex. I could lie there and think about paint drying. I could complain and be a brat. I could turn around and get really into it. He's somewhat similar to ataxia's Daddy in that nothing really fazes him or his cock, and he just takes over and takes it where he wants it to go.

 

[YourCaptor]

As a PYL if you were into Reluctance\Resistance would you attempt to push your pyl to the point of resistance but not tell them why you were doing it? How would you get the message across that you were into this in a way that didn't risk the whole thing feeling manufactured.

Umm... resistance/reluctance can be fun as long as obedience is still their and the pyl gets over their rebellion being crushed every time. For example a sub doesn't want to fuck and expresses that in her actions, but gets forced anyway.

For the sadist in me that results in some of the best sex.

It's kind of a difficult topic to discus though cause it could really mean anything, and nobody likes everything.

I just push it to that point, can't get more real then when it's real. I let her know how much resistance is ok with little comments, stuff like, "I love a struggler" or "your tears are so pretty." Romantic stuff like such. Oh, and basically if I don't reprimand her for it it's fine.

 

[Homburg]

I want unfeigned, worshipful enthusiasm, dammit.

 

[insert____here]

I want unfeigned, worshipful enthusiasm, dammit.

that may be true but at what point do you take what you want regardless of whether your pyl wants it or not??
she may worship you but at some point the "i want this so shut up and give it to me" is bound to come out.
or do you only go as far as you know your pyl will enjoy??
do you think that makes her worship you more or less??
i'm one of the worshipful types. but as previously stated, i will still do it just cos it was asked. whether i like it or not. that's kinda the point for me really.

it's interesting to hear this from the "bossy people's" perspective cos us pyl types really do get alot of analysis and care, but to me there just isn't alot of insight into the clockwork of the other side...

 

[ownedsubgal]

I want unfeigned, worshipful enthusiasm, dammit.

the worshipful part comes naturally. but enthusiasm? ehhh that is me maybe 2 times out of 10. excitement, make that 1 out of 20. thankfully this does not bother my Owner in the slightest.

i'm with i_h, i'm curious about Domly perspectives and feelings. Homburg, what does it do for you when one of your girls serves you with enthusiasm as opposed to simply fulfilling her duty?

 

[insert____here]

can i add that in light of ms subgals post...even when i really don't like the request, there is still a huge part that is joyful and enthusiastic just because i know it's something D wants??
sad, i know, but you know us noobs...it's still all roses even when it's covered in shit. (figuratively speaking)

glad i'm not the only one who wants to know what makes the bossy people tick....

 

[BiBunny]

I want unfeigned, worshipful enthusiasm, dammit.

I'm not picking on ya, but this confuses me.

Here, you said this. There's another discussion currently going on in my thread about "if you don't do what I want, then leave." How do those two things co-exist?

Unless you only order your girls to do what would make them happy (which there's absolutely nothing wrong with), or they're some really awesome people who can be enthusiastic about stuff they don't like, then the two things have to part company somewhere.

 

[JMohegan]

Resistance\Reluctance is probably a better label for what i meant. i didn't actually intend for this to become a consent debate although those can be interesting.

So if i rephrased the question to remove reference to consent it would be something more along the lines of:

For those pyls for whom obedience, maturity, and civil dialog within relationships with PYL's are any of you into Reluctance\Resistance? If so how to do achieve it without rebellion?

If your PYL was into it would you attempt to please them by attempting to become Reluctant\Resistant in a way that could be characterized as more than just pretend?

i would also add the following question:

As a PYL if you were into Reluctance\Resistance would you attempt to push your pyl to the point of resistance but not tell them why you were doing it? How would you get the message across that you were into this in a way that didn't risk the whole thing feeling manufactured.

Obedience + reluctance/resistance means that the s is not fighting the D; the s is fighting herself. Personally, I find this exceedingly hot.

Why on earth would it feel manufactured? All you need is a relationship in which the understanding, agreement, and intent is that the D's commands WILL be obeyed..... and a D who is willing to push up against the limits of the s with regard to embarrassment and/or pain.

Safeword is optional here, but I'm a big fan of retaining that option. Because to me, it makes the struggle of an obedient partner sooo much more delicious.

 

[ataxia.girl]

A resistance encounter with us usually starts with me getting mad about something and picking a fight. We have no understanding that i am going to eventually comply\obey of my own choice.

That is one of the things i find kind of fascinating about it. That i pretty much control when these things are going to happen for the most part but it doesn't really diminish his control because he does not hesitate to use physical force.

Most of the time i comply because i know how its all going to end anyway so what's the point. If i got some kind of maintenance discipline it probably wouldn't happen nearly as often but i don't so it does.

 

[Cattypuss]

Cattypuss, you're absolutely right that i consented to be his slave. that consent cannot be taken back, it is a done deal, he asked if i were willing and able to be his property for life, and i said yes. that was that. now i belong to him, and he has the right to do whatever he wants with his own property.

so yes the consent was there, it was given 9 years ago, and there is no turning back. i cannot say "i don't want to be here anymore," or on a given day, "i don't want to do this." well i suppose theoretically i could, but then i'd just be laughed at, beaten then have to do it anyway.

so in that sense, in the sense that i am his property, everything in consensual because i chose to be his property. however in the sense of desperately NOT wanting to do or be subjected to something, in the sense of dreading or hating something with every fiber of your being, there is plenty of "nonconsensual" stuff in our relationship.

i don't view that as "consensual non-consent," it is just the life of a slave.

and with that, the whole "consent" topic is officially a dead issue for me...sorry ataxia for the initial misunderstanding.

I think the penny has dropped now for me. If you think of yourself as consenting (via a long-ago-given, all-encompassing, permanently-binding consent) to stuff, this destroys what you want - which is a feeling of total abnegation of all choice in what happens in your life. I can see that that challenge to your mindset would be upsetting for you. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

 

[Homburg]

that may be true but at what point do you take what you want regardless of whether your pyl wants it or not??
she may worship you but at some point the "i want this so shut up and give it to me" is bound to come out.

Whenever I want. I would think that is obvious.

or do you only go as far as you know your pyl will enjoy??

Goodness, no.

do you think that makes her worship you more or less??

No, I don't.

i'm one of the worshipful types. but as previously stated, i will still do it just cos it was asked. whether i like it or not. that's kinda the point for me really.

it's interesting to hear this from the "bossy people's" perspective cos us pyl types really do get alot of analysis and care, but to me there just isn't alot of insight into the clockwork of the other side...

That is because we don't like to share as much.

--

the worshipful part comes naturally. but enthusiasm? ehhh that is me maybe 2 times out of 10. excitement, make that 1 out of 20. thankfully this does not bother my Owner in the slightest.

i'm with i_h, i'm curious about Domly perspectives and feelings. Homburg, what does it do for you when one of your girls serves you with enthusiasm as opposed to simply fulfilling her duty?

I figured my comment would generate response.

What does it do for me? I am a fairly responsive person emotional. My girls' emotional states can spin me up or sap me dry depending on what the state is, and how receptive I am at the moment. Enthusiasm is always a good thing for me.

It is not necessary mind you, but it is what I want.

--

I'm not picking on ya, but this confuses me.

Here, you said this. There's another discussion currently going on in my thread about "if you don't do what I want, then leave." How do those two things co-exist?

Unless you only order your girls to do what would make them happy (which there's absolutely nothing wrong with), or they're some really awesome people who can be enthusiastic about stuff they don't like, then the two things have to part company somewhere.

Not really. As I said above, I want it, but don't have to have it constantly, but it is what I want. This is why I said "want" in the earlier statement.

I don't "get" reluctance. It's not my thing. I am a large, strong guy, and I'm pretty persuasive. I can convince people to do what I want, and have many times. Boring. What is more rare, and more interesting to me, is the partner that isn't just willing to suffer through my twisted ideas, but the enthusiastic partner in crime. The one that wants the twisted fucked up shit enough to beg for it herself. That's my kink.

The "If you don't like it, leave," comes to the fore when the "don't like it" is enough to say "No," and good sense fails to eclipse.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I think the penny has dropped now for me. If you think of yourself as consenting (via a long-ago-given, all-encompassing, permanently-binding consent) to stuff, this destroys what you want - which is a feeling of total abnegation of all choice in what happens in your life. I can see that that challenge to your mindset would be upsetting for you. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

i get in that same kind of conundrum. On some level i need someone who is just going to take what they want from me and is pretty much going to ignore\not care what i want unless it amuses them to care for a moment or it doesn't inconvenience them enough to stop me from doing what i want. This is a need that i have. Its a need that sometimes feels like it is in conflict with other needs, like the need to be loved and accepted unconditionally. i'm not sure accepted is the right word. Its more a need to know that no matter what i won't be abandoned\discarded.

Whether my compliance is extracted or given freely pretty much makes no difference in my relationship and i need that.

i also get off on being hit\disciplined in anger but that isn't a state a PYL can really control. i have to do something to make them angry first. Its exceedingly difficult to make Daddy angry but i have gotten a few spankings where he was pissed off. Most of the time i amuse and arouse him more than anger him which just makes me angry which in turn arouses him more. Its a vicious cycle

 

[subish2009]

I don't think my tendencies for reluctance quite line up with any responder's so far, but they probably come closest to YourCaptor's and JMohegan's.

I have very stereotypical Catholic school girl/Daddy issue desires...I want to be made by a D to do all the dirty/depraved things that I want to do, but can't bring myself to own up to or (gasp!) initiate on my own. I will deny wanting it, deny being turned on by it, and refuse to do what I'm told until the D can "convince" me...whether that's with a hand to the neck slamming me up against the wall, a light slap to the face, an over-the-knee spanking, or even just that tone of voice. I will comply when I sense I've toed the line of acceptable resistance; I have never yet accidentally crossed the line to needing true correction, and doubt I would ever do so intentionally.

I know many D-types hate that kind of reluctance/resistance, but it works perfectly for me and my Ds, both of whom LOVE watching the feisty resistance disintegrate into flat-out begging for that which I just swore I would never do. It helps that I am extremely reactionary, to both physical and mental stimuli, so half the fun is also the humiliation aspect of getting called out for my body's reactions even while I'm swearing I hate the D with all I'm worth.

I spend a lot of time being an utterly out-of-line sub, but that's how my Ds like me. Getting me back in line is the whole point for them.