Communication versus Consideration

[McKenna]

Ouch, Imp. It sounds like you're contemplating some serious stuff, and haven't been satisfied yet with the results.

You said:

I am unable to tell someone: I need you to do this, this, and this. Doing so makes me distrust the response and puts me back to square one. It's like an emotional ultimatum, of sorts.

If you are valued, don't you think the other person(s) will invest the energy in finding out what you need? Anticipate it? Even *gasp* prevent future rough patches? Does a trial-and-error approach feel smothering to you -- or does it make you feel valued?

Here's my take on the situation, but let me preface my comments by saying I understand where you're coming from. We are alike in that we want people to somehow inherently know how to treat us, and yet, I've learned that's not entirely realistic.

I think it's our responsibility to teach people how to treat us. It's not their responsibility to inherently know how, that's impossible and unrealistic. That said, does it make it easier to voice our needs? No, it does not. And there will probably always be a bit of hesitation about how much to trust a response that doesn't seem "natural," but let me ask you this: Is it worth it in the end to have your needs met?

I think trial-and-error is a part of life. Very few of us ever get it right on the first go round. Does it make the relationship less valuable? No, not in my opinion. I think if we concentrate on the end result, on what's really important, the end will justify the means in this case. So you have to tell someone how to meet your needs. If they know, and still don't fulfill your needs, at least you know for certain it wasn't because they didn't know how.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I talk too much. Here I go again.

McK's post reminded me of that "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" book. I know, eyes are probably rolling up and down the AH, but I think he was on to something, and it's directly related to " . . . we want people to somehow inherently know how to treat us, and yet, I've learned that's not entirely realistic. I think it's our responsibility to teach people how to treat us. It's not their responsibility to inherently know how, that's impossible and unrealistic."

Doubly impossible and unrealistic if the parties are from different planets, which I think they are. The author's message to women is that men's minds really do work differently, and things that a women just knows are proof that "he doesn't care" are often nothing of the sort.

I understand this thread is not necessarily about romantic M/F relationships.

 

[Nirvanadragones]

I was wondering - what if " Communication" and/ or " considering" is not as important to your partner as it is to you? Which reminded me of this book. I copy and paste the part below from a website (yet I edited it freely) Forgive the references to " spouse" as it applies to friendship and other close relationships as well.

In his book "The Five Love Languages" Gary Chapman says a love language is how someone wants to be shown love because it satisfies a deep-seated need.

According to Chapman, the five love languages are:

Quality Time
Words of Affirmation
Gifts
Acts of Service
Physical Touch.

Quality Time refers to spending time together. People who have this as their love language feel loved when they are taken out on special dates, when their spouse clears the calendar for them, or when the television is turned off in order to have a conversation.

Others prefer Words of Affirmation as a way to be shown love. Telling your spouse how you appreciate them, encouraging them, and general words of praise and acceptance all show your love.

If Gifts is your spouse's love language, then you need to understand that for them, gifts are not simply material objects -- they are expressions of your love.

If your spouse's love language is Acts of Service, they will appreciate your help more than anything. Give them a night off from cooking or other household chores. Repair that leaky faucet. Help them with the yard work. Prepare them a nice lunch to take to work.

Some people prefer Physical Touch as their love language. A simple touch on the arm, hug or backrub will convey your love to them.

Problems occur when spouses do not recognize each other's love language and attempt to show love in ways that are less meaningful to the other spouse. For example, consider if your spouse has the love language of Acts of Service, but you assume they would rather have gifts. They might be appreciative of your presents, but your love would be more obvious to them if you helped them around the house. To them, a cleaned house means more than a box of candy.

 

[rgraham666]

The biggest problem with the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" was that it allowed, as so many books on such subjects do, people to reinforce their prejudices. "What can you expect?" such people say. "Their minds don't work properly. They're not like us." Sigh.

Men and women I find are much more similar than they are different. The biggest problem is social.

All of us, I believe, are taught that our emotional needs are somehow unworthy, that if we want we should keep our mouths shut. I think this is an echo of the old 'Original Sin' idea and the strain of incipient Puritanism that sticks in our society.

Against this is the constant demand that we should want, more and more, all the time. Those threads on 'big women' and advertising pop into my mind.

So we're often wanting more from our friends and partners, and feeling unworthy for doing so. It's a tension that can be quite toxic to relationships.

I believe that a successful relationship depends on willingness to change and to accept. What are we willing to change about ourselves and what are we willing to accept from our partners? These are the questions that we ought to ask ourselves.

The willingness to change is my biggest problem. I'm always frightened if I change myself, I'll lose myself, so it's very hard for me to change.

 

[impressive]

Ouch, Imp. It sounds like you're contemplating some serious stuff, and haven't been satisfied yet with the results.

...

Here's my take on the situation, but let me preface my comments by saying I understand where you're coming from. We are alike in that we want people to somehow inherently know how to treat us, and yet, I've learned that's not entirely realistic.

I think it's our responsibility to teach people how to treat us. It's not their responsibility to inherently know how, that's impossible and unrealistic. That said, does it make it easier to voice our needs? No, it does not. And there will probably always be a bit of hesitation about how much to trust a response that doesn't seem "natural," but let me ask you this: Is it worth it in the end to have your needs met?

I think trial-and-error is a part of life. Very few of us ever get it right on the first go round. Does it make the relationship less valuable? No, not in my opinion. I think if we concentrate on the end result, on what's really important, the end will justify the means in this case. So you have to tell someone how to meet your needs. If they know, and still don't fulfill your needs, at least you know for certain it wasn't because they didn't know how.

I'm seeking to better understand MYSELF, my motivations, my needs. As I've said earlier in this thread, this is a recurring theme in my life -- not an isolated event.

Personally, trial-and-error doesn't bother me in the least. It is effort, and effort clearly demonstrates desire/intent to make things "work."

When I was a little girl, I desperately wanted to please my father. I adored him. One Sunday afternoon, while he was watching football, I took a notion to spruce up his workshop in the garage. I tidied the workbench, sorted all the nuts & bolts, organized everything. Then, I painted. I painted the cinderblock walls a deep shade of purple -- which I thought was gorgeous. I just KNEW he'd be SO delighted with it (as I was). He was livid. I was crushed.

I learned a lot that day about effort ... and I will never fault anyone for trying, even if their choices are way off the mark. I don't buy that saying about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions.

As for this question: Is it worth it in the end to have your needs met? I'd have to say NO, not if it means I have to hand someone an "Imp for Dummies" manual. I'd never feel the response was genuine. I'd never trust it. I'd rather lower my expectations and reframe the relationship into something "lesser."

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[impressive]

I talk too much. Here I go again.

McK's post reminded me of that "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" book. I know, eyes are probably rolling up and down the AH, but I think he was on to something, and it's directly related to " . . . we want people to somehow inherently know how to treat us, and yet, I've learned that's not entirely realistic. I think it's our responsibility to teach people how to treat us. It's not their responsibility to inherently know how, that's impossible and unrealistic."

Doubly impossible and unrealistic if the parties are from different planets, which I think they are. The author's message to women is that men's minds really do work differently, and things that a women just knows are proof that "he doesn't care" are often nothing of the sort.

I understand this thread is not necessarily about romantic M/F relationships.

It's just my not-so-humble opinion that our differences have as much to do with the thinker/feeler dichotomy as they have to do with gender. Referencing, again, my relationship with my bestest buddy (who is female ... and a "thinker").

Yeah, I understand that there is a language difference ... but even non-native speakers eventually pick up the language if immersed (and if they make the effort).

 

[impressive]

Problems occur when spouses do not recognize each other's love language and attempt to show love in ways that are less meaningful to the other spouse. For example, consider if your spouse has the love language of Acts of Service, but you assume they would rather have gifts. They might be appreciative of your presents, but your love would be more obvious to them if you helped them around the house. To them, a cleaned house means more than a box of candy.

Indeed. "Problems occur" when languages vary. This is communication ABOUT consideration, no?

 

[impressive]

The biggest problem with the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" was that it allowed, as so many books on such subjects do, people to reinforce their prejudices. "What can you expect?" such people say. "Their minds don't work properly. They're not like us." Sigh.

Men and women I find are much more similar than they are different. The biggest problem is social.

All of us, I believe, are taught that our emotional needs are somehow unworthy, that if we want we should keep our mouths shut. I think this is an echo of the old 'Original Sin' idea and the strain of incipient Puritanism that sticks in our society.

Against this is the constant demand that we should want, more and more, all the time. Those threads on 'big women' and advertising pop into my mind.

So we're often wanting more from our friends and partners, and feeling unworthy for doing so. It's a tension that can be quite toxic to relationships.

Very insightful, Rob. I've not framed my issues in a broader context (because I rebel against such outside influences), but I can certainly see your point.

I believe that a successful relationship depends on willingness to change and to accept. What are we willing to change about ourselves and what are we willing to accept from our partners? These are the questions that we ought to ask ourselves.

The willingness to change is my biggest problem. I'm always frightened if I change myself, I'll lose myself, so it's very hard for me to change.

I hear you.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Non-native speakers may never get the accent and idioms right, though.

"Is it worth it in the end to have your needs met . . . if it means I have to hand someone an 'Imp for Dummies' manual? I'd never feel the response was genuine. I'd never trust it."

It might be genuine though, and you would lose something valuable by not trusting it. Which may be irrelevant - per Vana's post, if you are not being served in the "love language" that satisfies your needs, then maybe it doesn't matter if the response is genuine, because even if it is it won't be valuable to you.

What a mass of contradictions and interwoven complexities we humans are! I don't know if it's been useful for you, Imp, but I think this thread has teased out some of those complexities.

 

[impressive]

What a mass of contradictions and interwoven complexities we humans are! I don't know if it's been useful for you, Imp, but I think this thread has teased out some of those complexities.

I'm learning, yes. Learning is good.

 

[rgraham666]

Very insightful, Rob. I've not framed my issues in a broader context (because I rebel against such outside influences), but I can certainly see your point.

I hear you.

I'm much the same, imp. But we humans are a gregarious species and born pretty much tabula rasa. So we are affected by the larger picture.

I quite resonated to the story about your father. I have many of the same types of stories.

Looking back, I see that he was a man very disconnected from his emotional needs. And he'd been raised to think that the only allowable emotion was anger. Understandable as his mother was the same way, and her father was as well. Is that one of those memes they talk about?

Luckily, we human beings, can change ourselves more than any other animal on this planet. We do not have to be slaves of either our pasts nor our societies. It does take a lot of work though. And a recognition that the rewards for changing are not the rewards for staying the same. Well, not exactly.

 

[damppanties]

As for this question: Is it worth it in the end to have your needs met? I'd have to say NO, not if it means I have to hand someone an "Imp for Dummies" manual. I'd never feel the response was genuine. I'd never trust it. I'd rather lower my expectations and reframe the relationship into something "lesser."

What is 'genuine'? If by genuine you mean that they didn't think of doing it for you in the first place, and knowing you, they should have known before you told them, should have known your thoughts and what you want, that's some really high expectation. But, by genuine, if you mean whether they mean it and are doing it for you, no matter where it rises from, I think I'd take that. And I think more often than not, people do figure out the motivations behind someone doing something for them, whether it's obligatory or not.

Lovely thread Imp.

 

[impressive]

What is 'genuine'? If by genuine you mean that they didn't think of doing it for you in the first place, and knowing you, they should have known before you told them, should have known your thoughts and what you want, that's some really high expectation. But, by genuine, if you mean whether they mean it and are doing it for you, no matter where it rises from, I think I'd take that. And I think more often than not, people do figure out the motivations behind someone doing something for them, whether it's obligatory or not.

Lovely thread Imp.

Thanks.

I don't mean that those nearest and dearest to me need to be able to read my mind, no. In that way, I don't expect accuracy. I do expect effort ... and I'm worth it.

 

[rgraham666]

Thanks.

I don't mean that those nearest and dearest to me need to be able to read my mind, no. In that way, I don't expect accuracy. I do expect effort ... and I'm worth it.

There's a key concept: effort, and recognising it.

The effort may or may not be 'successful' but recognising that the other person made an effort and recognising the emotion that spurred the effort is a very important thing in relationships.

Too often we take the other for granted, don't respond to their actions because we 'expect' it of them. Or because the actions are such an every day thing we forget their importance.

I know I've been guilty of that more than once.

 

[Kev H]

*big grin* Very good points. How do you identify whether the person lacks intuition (i.e., is clueless) or is not even making the attempt to understand (or, even worse, understands & is not making the attempt to meet your needs)?

Just got back in town, and my first impression upon reading this is that you either replied to simply keep the dialog going, or you'd like to see me stumble through an answer to the unanswerable.

I have no clue how other people can tell; to me, personally, it's obvious. Does this mean I stay too long in bad relationships? Of course. I work hard to be empathetic and someone who not only pays attention to those around me, but bounces implications around in my head to ponder/meditate on them. Not many people are wired like I am, I have found, so giving them advice would be like asking them to remake themselves (and this is something I cannot/will not/should not do). I almost always stay in relationships to try and help them or to keep from hurting their feelings, so lately I just enjoy the deep peace that comes from being single.

If this line of questions is for anything more than curiousity, then I wish you luck, but if you listen to your analytical intelligence, I 'd bet you already have your answers.

 

[impressive]

Just got back in town, and my first impression upon reading this is that you either replied to simply keep the dialog going, or you'd like to see me stumble through an answer to the unanswerable.

I have no clue how other people can tell; to me, personally, it's obvious. Does this mean I stay too long in bad relationships? Of course. I work hard to be empathetic and someone who not only pays attention to those around me, but bounces implications around in my head to ponder/meditate on them. Not many people are wired like I am, I have found, so giving them advice would be like asking them to remake themselves (and this is something I cannot/will not/should not do). I almost always stay in relationships to try and help them or to keep from hurting their feelings, so lately I just enjoy the deep peace that comes from being single.

If this line of questions is for anything more than curiousity, then I wish you luck, but if you listen to your analytical intelligence, I 'd bet you already have your answers.

Of course I want to keep the dialog going! I find the discussion fascinating -- both on a personal level & in my desire to understand how others process information and reach decisions. In that way, yes, it's curiosity.

Analytical intelligence is one thing. Acting on it is another. Lots of people stay too long in "bad" relationships. Hopefully, we learn from experience. But I think it safe to say that most of the people who've contributed to this thread aren't really talking about "bad" relationships. When it's truly "bad," the decision is more black & white.

We're in a greyer space, here.

 

[impressive]

There's a key concept: effort, and recognising it.

The effort may or may not be 'successful' but recognising that the other person made an effort and recognising the emotion that spurred the effort is a very important thing in relationships.

Too often we take the other for granted, don't respond to their actions because we 'expect' it of them. Or because the actions are such an every day thing we forget their importance.

I know I've been guilty of that more than once.

I have, too, Rob.

 

[Nirvanadragones]

The Eyes of the Poor
by Charles Baudelaire

"Ah! You want to know why I hate you today. It will undoubtedly be harder for you to understand than for me to explain: for you must be the finest example one could find of female impenetrability.

We had passed a long day together which had seemed short to me. We had promised each other that we would share all our thoughts, and that from now on our two souls would be as one: -not a very original dream, after all, even though it is dreamed by all men and achieved by none.

In the evening you were rather tired, and wanted to sit down in a new café on the corner of a new boulevard still covered with debris, which was already displaying its uncompleted splendour. The café was sparkling. The very gas shone with the eagerness of a newcomer, lighting up with all its strength the walls that blinded us with their whiteness, the dazzling surface of the mirrors, the gold on the mouldings and the the cornices, the pages with their chubby cheeks dragged along by dogs on a lead, the ladies smiling at a falcon perched on their fist, the nymphs and the goddesses carrying fruits, paté and game on their heads, the Hebes and the Ganymedes with arms stretched out offering little jars of sweetmeats or an obelisk of multicoloured ices - the whole history, the whole mythology, in the service of gluttony.

Right in front of us, on the roadway, stood a worthy man of forty-odd with a grizzled beard: he looked tired, and held a little boy with one hand, while on the other arm he carried a tiny creature too weak to walk. He was their nursemaid, bringing the children out to take the evening air. They were all in rags. The three faces were strikingly earnest, and the six eyes stared at the new café with the same wonder, but subtly differentiated by age.

The father's eyes said: How beautiful! How beautiful! How Beautiful! One would think that all the gold in the world had been brought here for these walls. The eyes of the little boy said: How beautiful! How beautiful! But this place is not for the likes of us. As for the eyes of the tiny one, they were too fascinated to express anything other than a deep and utter joy.

The cabaret song tell us that pleasure makes the soul good and softens the heart. The songs were right that evening, as far as I was concerned. I was not only touched by that family of eyes, I felt a bit ashamed of our glasses and our decanters, much more than our thirst required. I turned to look at you, my love, in order to read my own thoughts; I plunged into your eyes, so beautiful and so strangely sweet, into your green eyes inhabitated by caprice, inspired by the moon, when you said to me: "I can't stand those people, with their eyes like wide open gates. Couldn't you ask the manager to get rid of them?".

That's how difficult it is to understand each other, my angel, that's how incommunicable our thoughts are, even between people in love."

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

The Eyes of the Poor
by Charles Baudelaire

"Ah! You want to know why I hate you today. It will undoubtedly be harder for you to understand than for me to explain: for you must be the finest example one could find of female impenetrability.
~~~~~~
That's how difficult it is to understand each other, my angel, that's how incommunicable our thoughts are, even between people in love."

Très profond.

 

[amicus]

I agree...

 

[impressive]

That's how difficult it is to understand each other, my angel, that's how incommunicable our thoughts are, even between people in love."

 

[Lee Chambers]

When I find I can't rely on someone is when I think they don't give a damn about me or my feelings.

And it doesn't have to be relying on them in desperate times. If they say they're going to be somewhere, like meeting you for dinner or the movies, and constantly don't keep their appointments. If they want to change plans suddenly on you. if they expect you to drop everything you have planned because they want to do something on a whim.

There's also the matter of what comes out of their mouth. whether talking to you or someone else, what they say has an impact as well, as i've had friends who just spurt out the craziest bullshit you've ever heard that offends a great number of people. They don't give a damn, but then you look bad because of guilt by association.

Also, someone who thinks they know everything that's good for you and think they know exactly how to handle things. Rather, it's how THEY would handle it and they think that's how everyone else should handle it too. Trying to push their way of doing things on to you is not being considerate of your feelings.

 

[MagicaPractica]

Two thoughts on this subject.

From Dr. Phil: Relationships are negotiated and you teach people how to treat you. I would add some people learn better than others and both parties have to be willing to negotiate.

From my Father: Good husbands aren't found, they're made.

One of my father's favorite songs, please forgive the caps, got it from Paul Overstreet lyrics and I don't feel like re-typing it.

Daddy's Come Around to Mama's Way of Thinkin'
DADDY'S COME AROUND TO MAMA'S WAY OF THINKING
NO MORE STAYING OUT ALL NIGHT DRINKING
EVERYTHING'S BETTER ON THE HOME FRONT NOW
THEY'RE MEETING IN THE MIDDLE WORKING IT OUT
HE'S FINALLY FIGURED OUT HE'S GOT SOMETHING WORTH KEEPING
YEA NOW DADDY'S COME AROUND TO MAMA'S WAY OF THINKIN

DADDY USED TO GO OUT EVERY NIGHT WITH HIS FRIENDS
AND MAMA STAYED HOME TAKING CARE OF THE KIDS
DADDY DIDN'T MIND THE WAY IT WAS ARRANGED
TO HIS WAY OF THINKING, IT DIDN'T SEEM STRANGE
THEN ONE NIGHT MAMA MET HIM AT THE DOOR
'CAUSE THE KEY IN HIS HAND DIDN'T WORK ANYMORE
MAMA SAID "MORE THAN THE LOCKS ARE CHANGED,
THERE'S A NEW SET OF RULES TO THIS OLD GAME"

CHORUS

IT'S BEEN SOME TIME SINCE SHE LAID DOWN THE LAW
BUT DADDY DON'T SEEM TO MIND AT ALL
HE COMES STRAIGHT HOME WHEN THE WORK DAY'S THROUGH
HE'S EVEN DONE THE DISHES A TIME OR TWO
LATE LAST NIGHT WHEN THE LIGHTS WERE LOW
DADDY TOLD MAMA "I LOVE YOU SO"

 

[impressive]

When I find I can't rely on someone is when I think they don't give a damn about me or my feelings.

And it doesn't have to be relying on them in desperate times.

Hmm. The non-desperate times are almost MORE important, aren't they? There are plenty of people around that you can "inconvenience" in an emergency. It speaks to a level of trust, I believe ... and of commitment.

Thanks.

 

[lucky-E-leven]

Coming in really late here, and I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if the topic has completely morphed by now.

For me, the response to my needs from someone else really doesn't mean that much if I have to spell it out for them. The boundaries are different in each relationship, but when I get to the point that I question whether that person really knows me at all - OR - I begin wondering that I simply don't matter enough to motivate them to react/act/move/feel/respond/provide then my line's damn near crossed. I try to consciously recognize that the envelope is being pushed. I then make that very thing clear to the other person. If, at that time, there is not some kind of cataclysmic misunderstanding revealed or some mountains don't begin getting relocated (even a pebble at a time), I'm out.

For me, it's all about feeling understood and worth the effort.