Communication versus Consideration

[neonlyte]

This has been swirling around in my mind for months, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

At what point in a "caring" relationship (friendship or romance) do you say to yourself: This person is simply not considerate of my feelings and not likely to become so ?

How explicitly can you communicate your needs/wants before their response feels obligatory (and, by extension, less genuine)?

Recognizing that everyone's different -- and every relationship is different -- where is YOUR line?

I gotta go to an all-day meeting, but I hope to have some interesting replies to chew on when I get back.

I recall when I first met my wife she took an interest in sports because she thought she had to. She was kind and considerate back then, came with me to watch track and field athletics, didn't object if I wanted to watch football, but it was a sham - she was only putting up with it because she thought she ought to show consideration. We took years to settle this difference, including abandoning the television for a period of years, but never escalated beyond a difference of opinion.

She is still kind and considerate by the way - at least in most things - when it comes to her work she is like a devil driven fiend and we all need to accommodate her requirements no matter how much we might prefer to be doing something else.

I guess what I'm saying is 'consideration' might be a soft word for meeting someone elses demands, whether you give in to those demands depends upon how much you value the relationship and the potential of reward (equal consideration) in return. If it is one way traffic, it points to a long and ultimately lonely/frustrating road.

 

[Nirvanadragones]

I am unable to tell someone: I need you to do this, this, and this. Doing so makes me distrust the response and puts me back to square one. It's like an emotional ultimatum, of sorts.

If you are valued, don't you think the other person(s) will invest the energy in finding out what you need? Anticipate it? Even *gasp* prevent future rough patches? Does a trial-and-error approach feel smothering to you -- or does it make you feel valued?

Imp, you know many of my feelings on this matter. I'd like to just mention a concept that existed in my life, yet you had the perfect understanding and terminology for it (as always)

Tainting the outcome: as you have mentioned earlier. If I tell someone what I need directly, and in no uncertain terms, their doing it, does not have the same effect on me as it would have had if they had done it without my interference.

There are different ways of expressing needs that i prefer, like positive reinforcement.

Yet, somewhere deep inside me, I still hope, that those I hold close to me, knows me intimately enough to understand my needs and have the will and ability to satisfy them.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

If it is one way traffic, it points to a long and ultimately lonely/frustrating road.

I think this is probably the truest statement made so far.

Honestly, I think you shouldn't have to explicitly explain the "big" things to anyone who is supposed to be a close friend, etc. If they know you as well as a friend should, needs shouldn't have to be spelled out. I guess it all depends on what exactly you are referring to. There may be little things that have to be discussed, but the big things like the friend being there for you, etc should not have to be discussed ahead of time.

I don't know if any of that made sense. I was kind of rambling a bit.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

A person I view as a philosophical "guru" wrote this. The prose is a bit awkward and the second part is a bit ivory towerish, but I give you the whole thing anyway:


There's this psychological concept of "visibility," where the spiritual trade that occurs between friends (and comprises friendship, really) is that one can enjoy the values one holds in experiencing exchanges that let you enjoy fundamental aspects of yourself, or socially relevant aspects, such as your benevolence, your wit, etc. When people don't respond to your qualities when you share them, one feels invisible-- one is not rewarded with the normal interplay which conveys appreciation and respect. Nathaniel Branden came up with the idea playing with his dog, recognizing that what both enjoyed in roughhousing was the underlying fact that it was all in fun-- the pretend aggression emphasized and allowed the pleasant experience of their fundamental benevolence and a kind of kinship, which gave both visibility, let them each experience their own value in the eyes of another. It's a way to externalize one's experience of oneself, on the one hand, and the emotional celebration of having others who share one's view of life.

Everyone needs-- if social needs exist at all, and I think they do-- to experience having "compatriots" at life. They need people whom they are "comfortable with," and they won't be able to put better words than that to it most of the time, but the fundamental similarities are philosophical: metaphysical assumptions (e.g., fundamental opinions like "life sucks and then you die," or "everything's basically okay," or "the world needs drastic change, and ASAP"), epistemological assumptions (is it okay to believe whatever you hear over the radio, can we really know anything anyway, I believe that for which there is good empirical evidence), and moral (is it okay to believe in things because others do, is it acceptable to disagree with the majority, is one supposed to Be Nice above all or are there are there non-social goals that are good in and of themselves to pursue, should I be objective even though it causes strife with others).

 

[Kev H]

Warning: I did not read all the replies to see if I am being redundant with my opinion.

I must say, amicus' first post really got me rolling, though it did not seem very relevant to the heart of the question. Still damn enjoyable, and I am sure by skipping the others I have missed more humor (wish I had the time, but I need to travel in a bit).

I may be too black and white, or I may have missed the finer points, but IMO, if you are a sensitive person who is aware of that other person, it should be intuitive whether the need-sharing is compatible as soon as the facades are dropped. I realize that emotions and fears/paranoias can cloud an otherwise simple issue, but I also believe it's important in our search for the truth at the heart of every human scenario that those feelngs be understood and accounted for.

To be more pointed at your questions, there is a big difference in the feel of honest, naive cluelessness, and a self-centeredness that prevents empathy. Empathy and the desire to please that other person, in a perfect world, would be musts for anything other than an acquaintance. Alas, we tend to compromise in our impatient need.

If the S.O. is clueless, yet desires to please you (assuming he/she has no abnormal malfunction), it is a small thing to train them, to nurse that compatibility. If they are self-centered, it will be impossible. I would not wish it on anyone -- that frustration of emotionally and intellectually banging your head against the immobile wall...ok well, maybe my last girlfriend.

It goes without saying that you should be sensitive to reciprocate, but often I like stating the obvious. I call it emphasis.

 

[izabella]

I am unable to tell someone: I need you to do this, this, and this. Doing so makes me distrust the response and puts me back to square one. It's like an emotional ultimatum, of sorts.

If you are valued, don't you think the other person(s) will invest the energy in finding out what you need? Anticipate it? Even *gasp* prevent future rough patches? Does a trial-and-error approach feel smothering to you -- or does it make you feel valued?

If I have to keep telling someone that I need them to spend time with me, I wonder if they desire to or if they feel it's an obligation.

If I have to keep telling someone that I need them to call more often to see how I'm doing, I wonder if they really care or not.

If I have to keep reminding someone that I need support, I wonder if they've been hearing me or if I don't rate much thought and concern.

Where do I draw the line? With family, it's a lot further out. They're family, warts and all, and always will be. I just have to deal with them as they are and will keep telling them my needs if that's necessary.

With friends, the line is drawn when I realize I care much less than I used to about whether I see them, or talking to them isn't fun or rewarding anymore, or their support doesn't mean very much to me anymore.

With lovers, it's the toughest to draw the line because they fill more needs than family and friends do - different needs - and they are likely to continue filling some even as they stop filling others. I think there, I draw the line when I realize I'm turning to my friend and family more often than to my lover to fill needs that he used to fill, when it's harder to ask than to let them go.

 

[impressive]

The prose is a bit awkward and the second part is a bit ivory towerish, but I give you the whole thing anyway:

It is, indeed, both awkward and ivory towerish ... but I thank you for sharing it.

 

[impressive]

I recall when I first met my wife she took an interest in sports because she thought she had to. She was kind and considerate back then, came with me to watch track and field athletics, didn't object if I wanted to watch football, but it was a sham - she was only putting up with it because she thought she ought to show consideration.

I've heard the exact same analysis of sex from some couples.

 

[impressive]

Imp, you know many of my feelings on this matter. I'd like to just mention a concept that existed in my life, yet you had the perfect understanding and terminology for it (as always)

Tainting the outcome: as you have mentioned earlier. If I tell someone what I need directly, and in no uncertain terms, their doing it, does not have the same effect on me as it would have had if they had done it without my interference.

Yes. Tainted outcomes ... or the potential for them ... are anathema to me.

There are different ways of expressing needs that i prefer, like positive reinforcement.

Yet, somewhere deep inside me, I still hope, that those I hold close to me, knows me intimately enough to understand my needs and have the will and ability to satisfy them.

Amen, Soul Candy. Amen.

 

[impressive]

Honestly, I think you shouldn't have to explicitly explain the "big" things to anyone who is supposed to be a close friend, etc. If they know you as well as a friend should, needs shouldn't have to be spelled out. I guess it all depends on what exactly you are referring to. There may be little things that have to be discussed, but the big things like the friend being there for you, etc should not have to be discussed ahead of time.

I don't know if any of that made sense. I was kind of rambling a bit.

Makes sense to me. Thank you.

 

[impressive]

To be more pointed at your questions, there is a big difference in the feel of honest, naive cluelessness, and a self-centeredness that prevents empathy. Empathy and the desire to please that other person, in a perfect world, would be musts for anything other than an acquaintance. Alas, we tend to compromise in our impatient need.

If the S.O. is clueless, yet desires to please you (assuming he/she has no abnormal malfunction), it is a small thing to train them, to nurse that compatibility. If they are self-centered, it will be impossible. I would not wish it on anyone -- that frustration of emotionally and intellectually banging your head against the immobile wall...ok well, maybe my last girlfriend.

*big grin* Very good points. How do you identify whether the person lacks intuition (i.e., is clueless) or is not even making the attempt to understand (or, even worse, understands & is not making the attempt to meet your needs)?

 

[impressive]

If I have to keep telling someone that I need them to spend time with me, I wonder if they desire to or if they feel it's an obligation.

If I have to keep telling someone that I need them to call more often to see how I'm doing, I wonder if they really care or not.

If I have to keep reminding someone that I need support, I wonder if they've been hearing me or if I don't rate much thought and concern.

Where do I draw the line? With family, it's a lot further out. They're family, warts and all, and always will be. I just have to deal with them as they are and will keep telling them my needs if that's necessary.

With friends, the line is drawn when I realize I care much less than I used to about whether I see them, or talking to them isn't fun or rewarding anymore, or their support doesn't mean very much to me anymore.

With lovers, it's the toughest to draw the line because they fill more needs than family and friends do - different needs - and they are likely to continue filling some even as they stop filling others. I think there, I draw the line when I realize I'm turning to my friend and family more often than to my lover to fill needs that he used to fill, when it's harder to ask than to let them go.

Very well articulated. Thank you.

 

[rgraham666]

Been reading this, and I have no idea what to say.

I've had so little success with relationships; lovers, friends or family; that I can't add anything here.

All my efforts end up in the category of "Well, that didn't work." and "What the fuck just happened?"

 

[impressive]

All my efforts end up in the category of "Well, that didn't work." and "What the fuck just happened?"

But ... do you keep trying?

If the relationship has value to you, then do you chalk it up to a learning experience & try something different next time? Or, do you throw your hands up & say, "I'll never understand women." and stop trying to anticipate her desires/needs?

For some reason, Rob, I don't take you as the "give up" type.

 

[rgraham666]

But ... do you keep trying?

If the relationship has value to you, then do you chalk it up to a learning experience & try something different next time? Or, do you throw your hands up & say, "I'll never understand women." and stop trying to anticipate her desires/needs?

For some reason, Rob, I don't take you as the "give up" type.

I don't understand my species, imp. Not in a manner that is useful to me.

I think one of the major problems is that of assumption. Many people have had very similar experiences. And so they share similar assumptions about how to act in a relationship.

Due to my rather odd past, I often don't share those assumptions. So we end up disappointing each other.

And despite my skills as a writer, my communication skills aren't very good. So it's difficult for me to relay my assumptions and wants to others. That's one thing I share with most of my species.

I don't give up. But I don't try that hard anymore either.

 

[impressive]

And despite my skills as a writer, my communication skills aren't very good. So it's difficult for me to relay my assumptions and wants to others. That's one thing I share with most of my species.

There is more than one type of "communication skill," though. Just because you may not be skilled at interpreting non-verbal ... or may not be skilled at expressing yourself verbally ... does not mean you can't, somewhat like a non-sighted person relying on other senses, make the best use of the tools in your box. The written word, for example.


My bestest buddy and I are so incredibly different in our communication styles, yet we've managed to remain close friends. She totally sucks at reading non-verbal cues, and I totally suck at verbally conveying my wants/needs. I am unable to: (a) ask, specifically, for what I need; and (b) express my feelings negatively in a way that "blames" someone else for causing them. (I have no problem, however, telling someone their actions "made" me happy. *shrug* I guess that makes me a hypocrite, but -- like 'Vana said -- "positive reinforcement" is very important to me.) What we HAVE managed to achieve is a thorough understanding of HOW the other communicates ... and that was not an easy journey. It was, however, worth it.

 

[carsonshepherd]

This has been swirling around in my mind for months, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

At what point in a "caring" relationship (friendship or romance) do you say to yourself: This person is simply not considerate of my feelings and not likely to become so ?

How explicitly can you communicate your needs/wants before their response feels obligatory (and, by extension, less genuine)?

Recognizing that everyone's different -- and every relationship is different -- where is YOUR line?

I gotta go to an all-day meeting, but I hope to have some interesting replies to chew on when I get back.

At what point do I realize it? Probably fairly quickly, sometimes almost right away. But how soon do I admit it? That depends on how badly I want them to consider my feelings, love me, return my gestures of caring.

That is, I have usually projected what I want that person to be, instead of what they really are. I have felt in the past that my emotional needs were not that important - that I could get what I need on my own.

I know that isn't true now. I don't know why it's taken this long to realize it. I think it was my recent experience with living with an alcoholic that cured me of neglecting my own needs. I poured so much energy into his alcoholism that one day I realized I didn't have any left, that I was more alone than I had ever been, and I need and deserve more.

With friends, it's easier. I love each of my friends without any expectations. If they're interested in what I have to give, then they know where I am; if they're busy doing their own thing, it's not really a big deal. I don't have to tell them what I need from them, because their friendship and uniqueness is a gift to me, not something I demand.

My romantic relationships haven't been very successful, but I have friendships that have lasted for 15+ years.

 

[impressive]

At what point do I realize it? Probably fairly quickly, sometimes almost right away. But how soon do I admit it? That depends on how badly I want them to consider my feelings, love me, return my gestures of caring.

That is, I have usually projected what I want that person to be, instead of what they really are. I have felt in the past that my emotional needs were not that important - that I could get what I need on my own.

I know that isn't true now. I don't know why it's taken this long to realize it.

We are so much alike in this way, but that comes as no surprise to me.

With friends, it's easier. I love each of my friends without any expectations. If they're interested in what I have to give, then they know where I am; if they're busy doing their own thing, it's not really a big deal. I don't have to tell them what I need from them, because their friendship and uniqueness is a gift to me, not something I demand.

My romantic relationships haven't been very successful, but I have friendships that have lasted for 15+ years.

And yet we differ markedly, here.

 

[carsonshepherd]

And yet we differ markedly, here.

Well, I am easy with my friends.

But, I do have only one really close friend. We've been friends for 18 years and there was only one brief period of time when we didn't speak to each other (over a guy, how stupid.) If we hadn't realized that we needed each other more than we needed a piece of ass, then we might not be friends now and I don't even like to think about it.

With other people, though, I usually let them come and go as they please. I've got MissScarlett so everyone else is optional.

 

[impressive]

I've got MissScarlett so everyone else is optional.

That is sooooooooo sweet! (Lucky YOU!)

 

[McKenna]

Seriously woman, will you get out of my head?!



I just saw this thread, even though Roxelby referred to it in a post she made in a different thread. I went looking for it then, but didn't see it. All this is the round-about way of me saying I'd like to think on my answer before replying.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I'm assuming we're talking about loving relationships here, because your question doesn't make much sense if we're talking about mere acquaintanceships, right?

When you love someone, it seems to me it's because there's a shared understanding and appreciation of one another. There are shared feelings. When you hurt, you shouldn't have to ask a loved one to comfort you. When you triumph, you shouldn't have to suggest that they celebrate with you. They do it spontaneously because they share your feelings.

I mean, that's the whole point of a relationship, isn't it? Sharing feelings? Isn't that why we fall in love with people? Because we already empathize with them and feel what they do? And the tighter that empathy, the stronger the love. Or am I doing something wrong here?

 

[impressive]

I'm assuming we're talking about loving relationships here, because your question doesn't make much sense if we're talking about mere acquaintanceships, right?

Well, I used the word "caring" relationship ... but "loving" fits, I suppose. I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't solely talking about romance. My questions apply to close friendship, as well.

When you love someone, it seems to me it's because there's a shared understanding and appreciation of one another. There are shared feelings. When you hurt, you shouldn't have to ask a loved one to comfort you. When you triumph, you shouldn't have to suggest that they celebrate with you. They do it spontaneously because they share your feelings.

Ideally, yes. (Again, as with neon's post, the same applies to sex in a "romantic" relationship.)

I mean, that's the whole point of a relationship, isn't it? Sharing feelings? Isn't that why we fall in love with people? Because we already empathize with them and feel what they do? And the tighter that empathy, the stronger the love. Or am I doing something wrong here?

No, sounds to me as if you're doing it right. However, even in the most "loving" (or "caring") relationships, there ARE times when your needs are not being met & you ask yourself: I'm doing everything BUT literally writing step-by-step instructions and s/he just doesn't get it. Why? Is s/he even paying attention? If not, why? If so, why isn't s/he doing something? Does s/he really care as much as claimed?

I'm not just speaking from personal experience, here (although I have plenty of it over the past 20+ years), but also from what others have shared with me.

Maybe it has more to do with, as carson so succinctly put it: projecting "what I want that person to be, instead of what they really are." ... which I'm sure happens a great deal. I'd even go so far as to say it is the main reason marriages (and friendships, for that matter) flounder in their early years.

So, obviously, in order to reach the point where these questions would even be asked, there is a connection already established. There is already a value placed on the relationship. One would hope there is at least empathy (understanding), if not sympathy (shared feelings).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


McK -- I look forward to yours.

 

[L_homme]

My view is that 'communication' and 'consideration' are diametrically opposed but they can also be a way for one to learn from the other. You can't avoid communication. It is possible to avoid consideration and that can be problematic because the other person thinks you don't care.

If your guard is down, you can end up more puzzled than before you communicated or tried to consider because you get no communication or consideration back from the other, and if your guard is up, you can get accused of being uncommunicative and inconsiderate by the other.

 

[impressive]

My view is that 'communication' and 'consideration' are diametrically opposed...

It certainly does seem that way at times, doesn't it?

When you think of it as gift-giving, perhaps, it emphasizes the disparity. Which gift means more to you: the one you specifically asked for ... or the one someone put a lot of thought and care into selecting based on their feelings for you?

If your guard is down, you can end up more puzzled than before you communicated or tried to consider because you get no communication or consideration back from the other, and if your guard is up, you can get accused of being uncommunicative and inconsiderate by the other.

*nods*

Thanks.