Coming to the Tipping Point: Gas is Just too Expensive!

[amicus]

Ah, thanks R.Richard, you beat me to it and found a better one that I did:

http://www.nowpublic.com/travel/2500-dollar-car-india

Amicus...

 

[Stella_Omega]

The Tata Motors People’s Car has a rear-wheel drive, all-aluminium, two-cylinder, 623 cc, 33 PS, multi point fuel injection petrol engine. This is the first time that a two-cylinder gasoline engine is being used in a car with single balancer shaft. The lean design strategy has helped minimise weight, which helps maximise performance per unit of energy consumed and delivers high fuel efficiency. Performance is controlled by a specially designed electronic engine management system.

Encouraging!

 

[Carnevil9]

The Tata Motors People’s Car has a rear-wheel drive, all-aluminium, two-cylinder, 623 cc, 33 PS, multi point fuel injection petrol engine......

Bodacious!!!

 

[JagFarlane]

You can't afford a train ride, they run on diesel, ahem and they have outlawed coal fired boilers on trains, besides coal is expensive too!

Youse bums are gonna get your wishes in spades, back to horse and wagon days, hope y'all like horsepoop!

amicus...

Diesel and electricity depending upon the area. As a note: Amtrak recently cut thier use of diesel by 10% and are planning to cut 7% I believe in the next couple of years. One of the ways they are doing it, is by making locomotives that, instead of using a massive train diesel engine, are using 3 engines from semi's, that start and shut off as power is needed or no longer required.

 

[S-Des]

If you want to say "no growth," Ami then you need to explain why two Bush Adminstrations have taken the U.S. into deep recessions. And don't try and blame the Clintons. That old line is way too frayed with unbelivablilty given the current state of the economy.

Food it high because of fuel prices. The employment roster is shrinking (ergo the "housing crunch") because of fuel prices. The USGS is pointing out new sources of oil regularly, but the oil companies don't plan on taking advantage of the information. The refineries along the gulf coast were destroyed by Katrina. How many were rebuilt?

The list goes on.

Jenny, I know you're heart is in the right place, but "deep recession?" A recession is two quarters of zero or negative growth, and last quarter was a positive .6%, which is paltry but still better than zero (and may be a sign that the economy is starting to turn). Unemployment is still low, and has nothing to do with the housing problems. They were bad loans made to people who shouldn't have gotten them in the first place (so gimmicks were often used such as low interest for the first few years, followed by a baloon in percentage). Once property values started to dip, some people found the overpriced houses that they now owned were worth less than their loan, so they couldn't refinance. Their income didn't dip, the stupid loans they took became too much for the income they had. I know most everyone here wants to blame Bush for everything that's wrong in the world, but lets stick to stuff he has actually screwed up.

 

[S-Des]

Interesting...Mercedes Benz just brought over in January a new car. Its a little two seater, no trunk, and by little I mean 6' long. However it gets 50mpg, and costs about 13K base price. If you're curious, you can find it here:

Yeah, we have a name for cars like that here.....roadkill. I drive a Toyota Corolla which manages a workmanlike 35mpg, and when I'm driving on the highways the Chicago winds push me all over the road like it's a video game. During the winter storms it's kind of unsafe (I have a mini-van that gets used when conditions are shaky). I can't even imagine trying to drive something like that on the roads, and wouldn't do it on a bet.

 

[JagFarlane]

Unemployment is still low, and has nothing to do with the housing problems. They were bad loans made to people who shouldn't have gotten them in the first place (so gimmicks were often used such as low interest for the first few years, followed by a baloon in percentage). Once property values started to dip, some people found the overpriced houses that they now owned were worth less than their loan, so they couldn't refinance. Their income didn't dip, the stupid loans they took became too much for the income they had.

This is a good point, what more or less happened is, that people watched as housing prices grew, and thought that houses made a wonderful short term investment. "Flipping a house" became very popular and people were willing to pay for an over priced house just because they felt that if they held onto it for a short period of time [under a year, generally attempting under 6 months] and made a few improvements they could generate a huge return. The problem is, while a house is a good investment, it is more for over the long term, not the short term. In the end...fate just caught up with these people.

It should also be noted, as reported by the NY Times, 96% of mortgages are still paid on time.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yeah, we have a name for cars like that here.....roadkill. I drive a Toyota Corolla which manages a workmanlike 35mpg, and when I'm driving on the highways the Chicago winds push me all over the road like it's a video game. During the winter storms it's kind of unsafe (I have a mini-van that gets used when conditions are shaky). I can't even imagine trying to drive something like that on the roads, and wouldn't do it on a bet.

Of course, there are never heavy winds or deep snows in Germany. So those engineers wouldn't care much about those problems. Stands to reason.

*nods*

 

[S-Des]

This is a good point, what more or less happened is, that people watched as housing prices grew, and thought that houses made a wonderful short term investment. "Flipping a house" became very popular and people were willing to pay for an over priced house just because they felt that if they held onto it for a short period of time [under a year, generally attempting under 6 months] and made a few improvements they could generate a huge return. The problem is, while a house is a good investment, it is more for over the long term, not the short term. In the end...fate just caught up with these people.

It should also be noted, as reported by the NY Times, 96% of mortgages are still paid on time.

I am looking into purchasing my first home (especially with the costs and mortgage rates low), so have been listening to a lot of real estate shows. This stuff has been talked to death, and virtually everyone I've heard tells the same story. People "flipped" houses like you said, and others purchased something nice rather than investing, assuming it was safer than the stock market. Some people even managed to pull off loans that were 0$ down and for more than the price of the home (using the extra to pay off debt). There was some fraud involved as well with lenders sneaking clauses into the agreement at the last minute, but the vast majority was lenders looking to make the sale, then move the loan to another institution, and buyers who assumed the market would just keep going up indefinitely.

 

[S-Des]

Of course, there are never heavy winds or deep snows in Germany. So those engineers wouldn't care much about those problems. Stands to reason.

*nods*

Well, I'm not sure what you think an engineer can do to make an 1800 lb car drive through snow the same as a 2800 lb one, but since they only claim it gets 5 mgp more than my car....I'll pass.

 

[amicus]

Diesel and electricity depending upon the area. As a note: Amtrak recently cut thier use of diesel by 10% and are planning to cut 7% I believe in the next couple of years. One of the ways they are doing it, is by making locomotives that, instead of using a massive train diesel engine, are using 3 engines from semi's, that start and shut off as power is needed or no longer required.

~~~

Not a refutation here, Jag, just a reality check.

Takes X amount of horsepower to move X amount of weight, at X amount of speed, regardless of motive power. Conservation and efficiency are great, of course, but have their limits.

Using electric as a motive force for trains simply places the burden on electricity demands which are also near full use, with no new sources in the works.

The population in general will undergo an increase in the cost of all energy related services and goods that require energy for manufacturing, transportation and distribution.

People will, as the Democrats are doing now, insist on higher wages which will engender even higher prices to cover labor costs.

T'aint an encouraging look into the future from my perspective.

?

Amicus....

 

[JagFarlane]

~~~

Not a refutation here, Jag, just a reality check.

Takes X amount of horsepower to move X amount of weight, at X amount of speed, regardless of motive power. Conservation and efficiency are great, of course, but have their limits.

Using electric as a motive force for trains simply places the burden on electricity demands which are also near full use, with no new sources in the works.

The population in general will undergo an increase in the cost of all energy related services and goods that require energy for manufacturing, transportation and distribution.

People will, as the Democrats are doing now, insist on higher wages which will engender even higher prices to cover labor costs.

T'aint an encouraging look into the future from my perspective.

?

Amicus....

Yes but it only takes x amount of force in order to turn the potential energy within said object into static energy. As the theory goes "An object in motion will remain in motion" Save for the giving forces of friction between the air and, in this case, the metal upon metal. Same concept works for a lot of pickup trucks, once you get it up to speed you do not need the same amount of force and therefore can shut off, in the trains case, up to two of three engines or in the trucks case, four of eight cylinders.

The electric I merely pointed out since you'd forgotten it.

And yes, people are going to insist upon higher wages. However, higher goods costs due to higher wages are quite possible, but what people will also forget is that higher wages will encourage shipping the work overseas. A lot of this really has to deal with us going from a production country to a service country, and the growing pains of realizing we cannot support both and appease all.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, I'm not sure what you think an engineer can do to make an 1800 lb car drive through snow the same as a 2800 lb one, but since they only claim it gets 5 mgp more than my car....I'll pass.

The Old man had one of the very first Honda Civics-- with some kind of hot-rodded engine and double-wide tires. He and his first wife drove it from LA to Chicago where they drove it for four years.
He says it sounded like a sewing machine in heat, and drove mostly on top of the snow... I drove a Ford Escort between Philadelphia and Chicago in a snowstorm back in '93. Whee!

 

[R. Richard]

Yeah, we have a name for cars like that here.....roadkill. I drive a Toyota Corolla which manages a workmanlike 35mpg, and when I'm driving on the highways the Chicago winds push me all over the road like it's a video game. During the winter storms it's kind of unsafe (I have a mini-van that gets used when conditions are shaky). I can't even imagine trying to drive something like that on the roads, and wouldn't do it on a bet.

I used to drive a dune buggy in the winter snow and the summer heat of New York or Connecticut. The buggy weighed about 1800 pounds with me in it and a full tank of gas. In really bad weather the only vehicles on the road were the big snow plow trucks, me and a very few BIG 4WD pickups. The other guys tried to overpower the snow. My little buggy floated on top of the snow, just like it floated on top of the western dunes. Since I had about the same size tires on the buggy as a big Mercedes, the buggy was quite stable in high winds. Oh yeah, on a long trip I averaged 38 MPG, despite a VERY non-stock air-cooled VW engine.

 

[S-Des]

The Old man had one of the very first Honda Civics-- with some kind of hot-rodded engine and double-wide tires. He and his first wife drove it from LA to Chicago where they drove it for four years.
He says it sounded like a sewing machine in heat,

I love that description.

I drove a Ford Escort between Philadelphia and Chicago in a snowstorm back in '93. Whee!

hehe, that was the first new car I ever bought (around 1988). I spun it 360 about a half-dozen times, but miraculously never managed to wreck it. That car was Christine in reverse.

 

[JagFarlane]

I used to drive a dune buggy in the winter snow and the summer heat of New York or Connecticut. The buggy weighed about 1800 pounds with me in it and a full tank of gas. In really bad weather the only vehicles on the road were the big snow plow trucks, me and a very few BIG 4WD pickups. The other guys tried to overpower the snow. My little buggy floated on top of the snow, just like it floated on top of the western dunes. Since I had about the same size tires on the buggy as a big Mercedes, the buggy was quite stable in high winds. Oh yeah, on a long trip I averaged 38 MPG, despite a VERY non-stock air-cooled VW engine.

-chuckles- During Nor'Easters in NJ I'd break out the ol '78 Dodge Warlock. The thing was an absolute beast...actually was set as a class II truck [which made emissions controls very easy to pass]. -smirks- can't tell ya how many times I'd have to pull out people whom had smaller SUV's out of the snow...

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I just wish Dodge would bring out the Dakota in turbocharged diesel. I'd trade in at once. Right sized truck, not too big, not too small, but just doesn't have a decently economical powerplant.

 

[Weird Harold]

What will stop human stupidity regarding the tracks? I don't have an answer for that.

High speed trains don't have the same sort of problems with vehicles on the tracks and suicide is a bit more difficult for the higher tech versions with raised tracks -- like monorails and mag-levs.

It's expensive, but level grade crossings should be eliminated -- preferably raise trains above the terrain so people can't jump from highway over passes onto the tracks to commit suicide. In general, the people who commit sucide by train do it because it's easy and spur of the moment; make them climb fences or elevated track pylons and it's too much work.

Mmmm that was also the 1970's...train technology has made rapid leaps forwards and thus allowing for faster transportation. And considering the train industry has to compete with airlines, they, of course, want faster trains, thus Amtrak's Acela train and of course, the supertrains over in Japan.

The problem with faster trains is that they require better, more expensive, and better maintained tracks as well as more expensive rolling stock. Just separating the grade crossings to allow unrestricted speeds is more than railroads can make back from passenger service in the US outside of the "Eastern Corridor."

Heard on the news just today, India is manufacturing and selling a car for $2500.00 American...

That car, with it's two cycle engine, can't meet US safety and emmission requirements. When I first saw a reference to that car, the article estimated it would require nearly it's own curb weight in energy absorbing bumpers and other safety devices and nearly triple it's basic cost in engine and exhaust system modifications to meet US pollution control requirements.

It's a nice starter car for India's growing lower-middle class, but it's a modern day "Tin Lizzie" with all of that venerable Ford's flaws as well it's benefits.

[re: Mercedes smart for two]Yeah, we have a name for cars like that here.....roadkill. I drive a Toyota Corolla which manages a workmanlike 35mpg, and when I'm driving on the highways the Chicago winds push me all over the road like it's a video game.

Of course, there are never heavy winds or deep snows in Germany. So those engineers wouldn't care much about those problems. Stands to reason.

The mercedes Smart For Two line isn't an autobahn cruiser intended for extended distances on major (autobahn class) highways. It's intended to get two people around in Megurbs (suburbs and inner-city surface streets.)

They are probably less prone to shifting in cross-winds that S-Des' Corolla because it looks like some thought has been given to aerodynamics and aerodynamic down forces. My main concern with mixing that size vehicle with existing traffic is being eye-level to the DOT bumper on an 18-wheeler.

I just wish Dodge would bring out the Dakota in turbocharged diesel. I'd trade in at once. Right sized truck, not too big, not too small, but just doesn't have a decently economical powerplant.

So invest in the Dakota Hybrid. Dodge appears to offer Hybrid versions of all of it's most popular models for 2009, and according my last excursion into Dodge's news releases, the Dakota and Aspen SUVs are incluided in the Hybrid options.

 

[R. Richard]

-chuckles- During Nor'Easters in NJ I'd break out the ol '78 Dodge Warlock. The thing was an absolute beast...actually was set as a class II truck [which made emissions controls very easy to pass]. -smirks- can't tell ya how many times I'd have to pull out people whom had smaller SUV's out of the snow...

East of San Diego there are mountains. In the winter they often get snow storms. I had a rail dune buggy with an aluminum body that I rescued from the Baja 1000 race. I had to beg and plead to get a chance to do maintenance work on the remote sites. The dune buggy always got me there and back. In fact, I used to get calls late at night to go and pickup some idiots who got stuck in their big 4WDs. I would have to 'float' in and pick up one guy at a time and then take them back to the highway. I finally lost the job, because of, "The inablity of your vehicle to reliably access remote sites."