College kids don't read books?

[astuffedshirt_perv]

The Atlantic is out with another piece questioning the literacy of Elite College Students.

The Elite College Students Who Can’t Read Books​

To read a book in college, it helps to have read a book in high school.

"... the student told Dames (Literature Humanities, Columbia University) that, at her public high school, she had never been required to read an entire book. She had been assigned excerpts, poetry, and news articles, but not a single book cover to cover."

TL;DR is that books are no longer required reading in HS, so no one reads books. "Last book I read was Percy Jackson." I wonder if Lit is seeing a drop off in people reading longer works? Should we expect to? How would we as authors know?

 

[THBGato]

Lucky there's some British readers here then! They'll have all read Romeo & Juliet and Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde at the very least! ;-)

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Both my kids are voracious readers. Youngest, 20 year old college sophomore, is into book 3 of LotR right now.

 

[Voboy]

I went to an American public high school over three decades ago.

The English classes required us to read MANY books.

Even back then, a sizeable chunk of the student population did not bother reading them all. They usually knew they could get at least a B- on a piece of written work reflecting a bare-bones understanding of the plot based on the dust jacket, some judicious skimming, and a little attention paid to remarks in class from their better-read peers. I distinctly remember that out of maybe 25 kids in my junior English class, the same 4-5 of us regularly contributed to class discussion because we were clearly the ones who'd done the reading. Everyone else was just along for the ride.

I can only imagine it's gotten much, much worse with the advent of the internet.

Readers (like me) love reading, and even then, some of the crap we were assigned in class was a slog (I'm talking to you, Faulkner). Kids who don't love reading? Yeah, forcing them to read Steinbeck is not going to magically make them love reading. They simply won't do it. They'll find a workaround that suits their interests better.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

I distinctly remember that out of maybe 25 kids in my junior English class, the same 4-5 of us regularly contributed to class discussion because we were clearly the ones who'd done the reading. Everyone else was just along for the ride

I had a very similar experience in junior English class.

 

[Voboy]

I had a very similar experience in junior English class.

Yep. Is it any wonder English teachers stopped assigning complete books? Teachers will only slog uphill for so long.

My understanding is that the AP curriculum for ELA changed dramatically around the turn of the century. When I was going through, junior AP English was "American Lit" and senior AP English was "English Lit;" in both, the emphasis was on reading canonical literary works, and lots of 'em.

Nowadays, there's an "AP Lit" and an "AP Lang." The Literature course studies the way writers use language to carry meaning to the readers, which is largely a matter of using real-world examples out of context: excerpts, critiques, etc. The Language course, as I understand it, is more of a rhetoric class: you learn about how to use language to make arguments and such.

Understandably, a world where the College Board deemphasizes reading books is going to affect other ELA courses downstream.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

Yep. Is it any wonder English teachers stopped assigning complete books? Teachers will only slog uphill for so long.

My understanding is that the AP curriculum for ELA changed dramatically around the turn of the century. When I was going through, junior AP English was "American Lit" and senior AP English was "English Lit;" in both, the emphasis was on reading canonical literary works, and lots of 'em.

Nowadays, there's an "AP Lit" and an "AP Lang." The Literature course studies the way writers use language to carry meaning to the readers, which is largely a matter of using real-world examples out of context: excerpts, critiques, etc. The Language course, as I understand it, is more of a rhetoric class: you learn about how to use language to make arguments and such.

Understandably, a world where the College Board deemphasizes reading books is going to affect other ELA courses downstream.

Interesting. As a teen, I was an avid reader of genre fiction. I was introduced to the American Literary greats like F. Scott Fitzgerald, Arthur Miller, J.D. Salinger, etc. through my high school English classes and really did change the way I viewed the written word.

I'd always thought of writing as a great tool to tell a story or communicate ideas. It wasn't until I read literature that I considered writing to be a form of art. I wasn't even an AP student. I'm sad that young people might miss out on such an enriching opportunity.

 

[SimonDoom]

I enjoyed reading from an early age. I credit my Mom because she was very supportive of reading and gave me many recommendations. I read many more novels outside of class than in class all through high school and college. I won't say "I can't imagine" because I've been accurately called on that recently by someone I shall not name, but I have a hard time understanding being an intelligent person and not wanting to read a good book.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I went to an American public high school over three decades ago.

The English classes required us to read MANY books.

Even back then, a sizeable chunk of the student population did not bother reading them all. They usually knew they could get at least a B- on a piece of written work reflecting a bare-bones understanding of the plot based on the dust jacket, some judicious skimming, and a little attention paid to remarks in class from their better-read peers. I distinctly remember that out of maybe 25 kids in my junior English class, the same 4-5 of us regularly contributed to class discussion because we were clearly the ones who'd done the reading. Everyone else was just along for the ride.

I can only imagine it's gotten much, much worse with the advent of the internet.

Readers (like me) love reading, and even then, some of the crap we were assigned in class was a slog (I'm talking to you, Faulkner). Kids who don't love reading? Yeah, forcing them to read Steinbeck is not going to magically make them love reading. They simply won't do it. They'll find a workaround that suits their interests better.

But we aren't talking about average students. We are talking about supposedly "elite" students at a prestigious Ivy League university who can't read a book.

You've got kids getting accepted into Harvard who need remedial math.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/9/3/new-math-intro-course/

 

[Voboy]

But we aren't talking about average students. We are talking about supposedly "elite" students at a prestigious Ivy League university who can't read a book.

You've got kids getting accepted into Harvard who need remedial math.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/9/3/new-math-intro-course/

Kids who get accepted at elite colleges are not necessarily smart, still less intelligent, least of all intellectually curious. They are most likely to be students who've learned how to get A grades, and that doesn't usually translate to a love of learning for the sake of learning.

My most intelligent students were never the ones who got into Harvard. They were the ones who had their own thoughts and ideas, quite independently of their grades. Many of those were readers; the valedictorian never really was, from what I could see. The kids at the top of the class saw reading as a way to get 100% on their exams, which is not a healthy way to look at reading.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Kids who get accepted at elite colleges are not necessarily smart, still less intelligent, least of all intellectually curious. They are most likely to be students who've learned how to get A grades, and that doesn't usually translate to a love of learning for the sake of learning.

My most intelligent students were never the ones who got into Harvard. They were the ones who had their own thoughts and ideas, quite independently of their grades. Many of those were readers; the valedictorian never really was, from what I could see. The kids at the top of the class saw reading as a way to get 100% on their exams, which is not a healthy way to look at reading.

The story isn't about kids who don't WANT to read a book, it's about kids who CAN'T read a book. That is a significant and important difference. You don't need a "love of learning" to be able to read Dickens.
You may say, "these aren't the smart kids anyway" but that isn't how society as a whole looks at it. Graduating from one of the Ivys is the fast track to the levers of power in this country.
In the not to distant past the idea that anyone could get into an elite institution, let alone an Ivy league school and need remedial math or be unable to read a book would have been laughed at.

 

[Voboy]

In the not to distant past the idea that anyone could get into an elite institution, let alone an Ivy league school and need remedial math or be unable to read a book would have been laughed at.

And a few decades before that, they would not have gotten in without passing an exam in ancient Latin. Times change. Not always for the better, but they do change.

It is what it is. I'm just saying I'm not even slightly surprised kids at all ability levels no longer read books analytically.

 

[Flybynite1892]

Yeah, this story is kind of concerning. I'm a 32-year-old guy, and I still read a ton of fiction - I always try to have a novel going - but I definitely know it's kind of rare for a man in my generation to be reading that much. If anything, there's like this rise of the need to read self-help stuff, or books with actual "useful" applications, as opposed to fiction. (Will say, "The Picture of Dorian Gray" was way more useful in helping me find my voice as a bi writer than, I don't know, "How to Win Friends and Influence People" or something).

The irony is there really aren't any actual downsides to reading a ton of fiction. It builds empathy and it has made it way easier for me to talk to people as a shy person. So, if you really do want to market yourself and make yourself more interesting - if you want to be that cold and calculating about it, as the finance bros always are - reading fiction actually pays off more, in my opinion. But of course, I read because it's fucking fun, not for any other reason.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

And a few decades before that, they would not have gotten in without passing an exam in ancient Latin. Times change. Not always for the better, but they do change.

It is what it is. I'm just saying I'm not even slightly surprised kids at all ability levels no longer read books analytically.

There is a pretty significant difference between reading Latin and reading a book.
Do you really think it's ok to have people in the State Department responsible for foreign policy who can't read a book analytically? Because that's what you are going to get.
That goes way beyond "times change" and is a failure of our education system.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

In a previous job, I knew a woman who had a high school diploma and two years of secretarial school. She decided to go to college. I found her crying one day, because she had been given an assignment to write a one-page report.

She didn't know how. Nobody had given her a single writing assignment longer than a paragraph in her entire time in school.

-Rocco

 

[InterestedBlonde]

This seems an over-reaction, especially when the Atlantic article notes: "No comprehensive data exist on this trend . . . " The article's title screams clickbait to me. As someone who graduated from an "elite" institution, we read hundreds of pages each week (including complete books) and are routinely expected to be adept in math, economics, statistics, sophisticated research, writing, and data-wrangling. I've never encountered a student who can't read books or do math. Some do so spectacularly and with genius as well as creativity.

My parents tell me that teachers have been tsk-tsk-ing about lazy and/or underperforming students since time immemorial. It's good to have high expectations, but to claim university students (elite or otherwise) cannot read books or math in the absence of any robust evidence or data just seems silly. There is some data on gaps due to COVID challenges, but nothing that supports these broad statements or conclusions that future leaders or professionals will be morons.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

but nothing that supports these broad statements or conclusions that future leaders or professionals will be morons.

Future? George W Bush.

 

[RetroFan]

Maybe they could take a summer course at the Derek Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good?

 

[TheLobster]

There is a pretty significant difference between reading Latin and reading a book.
Do you really think it's ok to have people in the State Department responsible for foreign policy who can't read a book analytically? Because that's what you are going to get.
That goes way beyond "times change" and is a failure of our education system.

Indeed. A few more decades of those “changing times” and your president will be called Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Future? George W Bush.

Not to turn this political, but he was a voracious reader, Obama on the other hand was a TV watcher.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

This seems an over-reaction, especially when the Atlantic article notes: "No comprehensive data exist on this trend . . . " The article's title screams clickbait to me. As someone who graduated from an "elite" institution, we read hundreds of pages each week (including complete books) and are routinely expected to be adept in math, economics, statistics, sophisticated research, writing, and data-wrangling. I've never encountered a student who can't read books or do math. Some do so spectacularly and with genius as well as creativity.

My parents tell me that teachers have been tsk-tsk-ing about lazy and/or underperforming students since time immemorial. It's good to have high expectations, but to claim university students (elite or otherwise) cannot read books or math in the absence of any robust evidence or data just seems silly. There is some data on gaps due to COVID challenges, but nothing that supports these broad statements or conclusions that future leaders or professionals will be morons.

Nobody is making broad statements that future leaders will be morons.
We aren't talking about "can't do math". But if you are accepted into a supposedly elite institution and have to take remedial courses that should say something about the admittance policies of said institution.

 

[Comshaw]

Future? George W Bush.

GWB didn't make college on his own work. He was a legacy student. If anything this is the problem with "elite" students. You have a section (how many I could only guess) of them that get into elite colleges not because they are smart, or have worked hard, but because their daddy knows people. I'm sure that some of those "elite" students have difficulty with most of the subjects taught and to put it bluntly, are dumb as a box of rocks. But they gots money and daddy knows everybody on the board.
And if you don't know anyone on the board? Well if you have drawers full of money you just buy your kid a place.

Those kids don't have to know how to read or do math or any of that icky study stuff. Daddy's got money! And I'm inclined to believe that's where the "can't read a book" as an elite college student comes in.

"There are only haves and have not. And there are only so many places at the table." Ned Beatty as Senator Charles F. Meachum



Comshaw

 

[Levorotatory]

The problem is too much emphasis on where someone completed their post-secondary education and not enough on what they did there. A 3.5+ GPA from any state university should be worth more than a "C's get degrees" graduate from a big name school.

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

My parents tell me that teachers have been tsk-tsk-ing about lazy and/or underperforming students since time immemorial.

This is actually in the linked article also! "In 1979, Martha Maxwell..."Every generation, at some point, discovers that students cannot read as well as they you like or as well as professors expect." 1979 isn't exactly time immemorial, but...

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

As someone who graduated from an "elite" institution, we read hundreds of pages each week (including complete books) and are routinely expected to be adept in math, economics, statistics, sophisticated research, writing, and data-wrangling.

I also attest from personal experience that the article seems leans to the "click / rage- baity" side of things. I was a grad student at an "elite" school fairly recently and having interacted on a daily basis with undergrads, I can safely say that we are at no risk of illiteracy among our alleged best and brightest. Education might look different these days and maybe not to the liking of the old farts, but the kids these days are absolutely reading. Even the stem kids. The future generations are in better hands than the internet will have you believe, I promise!