dmallord
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It would take a world leader with balls to turn lose a military general or admiral similar to George Patton with an assignment to get it done.
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dmallord
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Having that 10,000-foot ceiling view of a complex and evolving situation is always good. In this case, the Arab Israeli situation when you want to argue your point of view. Given the limits of the 10,000-character space allocation in the Forum, I've distilled much of this history. It will appear in two posts.
The present state of Israel came into being through a complex and multifaceted historical process. Here is a simplified overview of the key events and factors that led to the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948:
Military Realities: The 1948 Arab-Israeli War significantly altered the military situation on the ground. The conflict saw shifts in territorial control as both sides made gains and losses. The armistice lines were drawn to reflect the military positions when the various armistice agreements were negotiated.
Rejection of the UN Partition Plan: While the UN proposed the partition plan in 1947, it was accepted by the Jewish leadership, but the Arab states and the Palestinian Arab leadership rejected it. The Arab states opposed the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine and sought to prevent its establishment.
Arab Military Intervention: Following the declaration of the State of Israel, several neighboring Arab states, including Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq, launched a military intervention to support the Palestinian Arabs and prevent the establishment of Israel. The armistice lines were established following negotiations between the warring parties after this conflict.
Territorial Disputes: The borders established through the armistice agreements resulted from negotiations and did not necessarily reflect the UN partition plan. These negotiations took into account various considerations, including military positions, strategic interests, and territorial disputes. As a result, the armistice lines did not precisely match the borders proposed by the UN.
The establishment of the armistice lines did not bring a final resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Instead, they served as temporary boundaries and did not represent a final settlement. The armistice agreements included clauses indicating that the lines were not to be considered permanent borders.
It's important to note that these armistice lines, often referred to as the Green Line, remained in place until the Six-Day War in 1967 when Israel captured additional territories, including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. The issues related to borders and territorial disputes remain central to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the broader Arab-Israeli conflict.
The Six-Day War, also known as the June 1967 War, was a brief but highly significant conflict in the Middle East between June 5 and June 10, 1967. A combination of long-standing political and territorial disputes, military buildups, and regional tensions primarily precipitated the war. Here are some of the critical factors that led to the outbreak of the Six-Day War:
Territorial Disputes:
Ongoing tensions between Israel and its Arab neighbors, particularly Egypt and Syria, were rooted in territorial disputes that originated in the aftermath of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War (War of Independence). These disputes primarily revolved around the status of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem, occupied by Jordan and Egypt, respectively, after the 1948 war.
The present state of Israel came into being through a complex and multifaceted historical process. Here is a simplified overview of the key events and factors that led to the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948:
- Historical Background:
- Jewish presence in the region dates back thousands of years, and the Land of Israel holds deep religious and historical significance for Jewish people.
- The Zionist movement began in the late 19th century and aimed to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine, then part of the Ottoman Empire.
- Ottoman Rule:
- During World War I, the British and their allies, including Arab forces, fought against the Ottoman Empire.
- The British issued the Balfour Declaration in 1917, which expressed support for establishing a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine.
- British Mandate:
- After World War I, the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate to govern Palestine, which included present-day Israel and Jordan.
- The mandate was marked by conflict between Jewish and Arab communities over control of the land.
- United Nations Partition Plan (1947):
- The United Nations proposed a partition plan in 1947, which recommended the division of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem as an international city.
- The Jewish leadership accepted the plan but rejected by the Arab states and Palestinian Arabs.
- Declaration of the State of Israel (1948):
- On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, declared the establishment of the State of Israel.
- This declaration came on the eve of the expiration of the British Mandate and shortly before neighboring Arab states launched a military intervention in response to the declaration.
- Arab-Israeli War (1948-1949):
- The declaration of the State of Israel led to a regional conflict, often referred to as the 1948 Arab-Israeli War or War of Independence.
- Israel successfully defended its newly declared borders, and armistice agreements were reached with several Arab states by 1949.
- Armistice Lines:
- The armistice agreements established de facto borders for Israel, known as the Green Line, which did not correspond with the UN partition plan.
- The West Bank came under Jordanian control, and the Gaza Strip came under Egyptian control.
Military Realities: The 1948 Arab-Israeli War significantly altered the military situation on the ground. The conflict saw shifts in territorial control as both sides made gains and losses. The armistice lines were drawn to reflect the military positions when the various armistice agreements were negotiated.
Rejection of the UN Partition Plan: While the UN proposed the partition plan in 1947, it was accepted by the Jewish leadership, but the Arab states and the Palestinian Arab leadership rejected it. The Arab states opposed the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine and sought to prevent its establishment.
Arab Military Intervention: Following the declaration of the State of Israel, several neighboring Arab states, including Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq, launched a military intervention to support the Palestinian Arabs and prevent the establishment of Israel. The armistice lines were established following negotiations between the warring parties after this conflict.
Territorial Disputes: The borders established through the armistice agreements resulted from negotiations and did not necessarily reflect the UN partition plan. These negotiations took into account various considerations, including military positions, strategic interests, and territorial disputes. As a result, the armistice lines did not precisely match the borders proposed by the UN.
The establishment of the armistice lines did not bring a final resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Instead, they served as temporary boundaries and did not represent a final settlement. The armistice agreements included clauses indicating that the lines were not to be considered permanent borders.
It's important to note that these armistice lines, often referred to as the Green Line, remained in place until the Six-Day War in 1967 when Israel captured additional territories, including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. The issues related to borders and territorial disputes remain central to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the broader Arab-Israeli conflict.
The Six-Day War, also known as the June 1967 War, was a brief but highly significant conflict in the Middle East between June 5 and June 10, 1967. A combination of long-standing political and territorial disputes, military buildups, and regional tensions primarily precipitated the war. Here are some of the critical factors that led to the outbreak of the Six-Day War:
Territorial Disputes:
Ongoing tensions between Israel and its Arab neighbors, particularly Egypt and Syria, were rooted in territorial disputes that originated in the aftermath of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War (War of Independence). These disputes primarily revolved around the status of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem, occupied by Jordan and Egypt, respectively, after the 1948 war.
dmallord
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This the second part of the brief history of the Arab and Israeli topic of discussion.
Now, go ahead and make your informed opinions.
- Following the Six-Day War in 1967, tensions between Arabs and Jews continued, and the war's aftermath had significant and lasting consequences for the Middle East. Here are some of the key developments and events that occurred after the war:
- Occupation and Settlements:
- Israel's capture of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem during the Six-Day War resulted in the occupation of these territories. Israel began building settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, leading to ongoing disputes with the Palestinian population and the international community.
- United Nations Resolution 242:
- In the aftermath of the war, the United Nations Security Council passed Resolution 242 in November 1967. This resolution called for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from the territories occupied during the war. It affirmed the "land for peace" principle, which laid the groundwork for future peace negotiations.
- Yom Kippur War (1973):
- The Arab-Israeli conflict continued to simmer, leading to the Yom Kippur War in 1973, also known as the October War or Ramadan War. This war, initiated by Egypt and Syria, marked another major conflict in the ongoing struggle between Israel and its Arab neighbors.
- Peace Treaties:
- In 1979, Egypt became the first Arab country to sign a peace treaty with Israel, known as the Camp David Accords. This resulted in Israel's withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula and normalizing relations between the two countries.
- In 1994, Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel, improving relations and cooperation between the two countries.
- Palestinian Conflict:
- The Six-Day War and its aftermath intensified the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. The Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), led by Yasser Arafat, engaged in various forms of resistance against Israeli occupation.
- Oslo Accords (1993):
- The Oslo Accords represented a significant attempt to address the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. These agreements between Israel and the PLO aimed to establish a process for Palestinian self-governance in parts of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. However, the peace process has faced numerous challenges and setbacks.
- Continuing Tensions:
- Tensions between Israelis and Palestinians, as well as between Israel and various Arab states, have persisted. Disputes over borders, settlements, the status of Jerusalem, and the right of return for Palestinian refugees have been central issues in ongoing negotiations and conflicts.
- Regional Dynamics:
- The Arab-Israeli conflict has been influenced by broader regional dynamics, including the Arab League's stance on Israel and the influence of non-state actors like Hezbollah and Hamas. Geopolitical developments, such as the Arab Spring and the rise of Iran, have also had an impact.
Now, go ahead and make your informed opinions.
•
Dissolve Israel???
Israel seems / seemed purpose built to be a RELIABLE partner / foothold / base for "the west" and "secular western values" in the Middle East, AND as a logical homeland for an perpetually ostracized people.
I support that ^.
The Islamic Middle Eastern Arab nations have proven to be anything but RELIABLE partners for the west and "secular western values" and showed zero empathy for the Jewish people in the aftermath of the holocaust, etc.
(Also: - For some context on the entire "Israelites vs Palestinians" claim to the lands in dispute:
https://jfedsrq.org/did-jews-take-israel-from-palestinians/
That ^ is required reading imho.)
Israel was also likely deemed a more "palatable" / "salable" / "acceptable" option to another Christian crusade in Palestine at the time of its creation.
That ^ can be argued.
Ultimately, for many reasons, the Jews were / are a marked people.
This
didn’t help:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitism
That ^ (and religious / ethnic bigotry) has led us to where we are today.
Everybody needs to own their responsibility for the current situation.
*nods*
RobDownSouth
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Agreed. I do want to go on record as saying that I'm disappointed that the US government has seemingly blessed Israel with its tacit approval for any and all war crimes that Israel may commit in the upcoming week.
Obligatory: Yes, Hamas bad. Mass murder bad.
JoePepsiCo
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IF you are employing the vapid rhetoric tool lamenting the fate of the “innocent” citizens of Gaza as a reason for Israel not to clean out Hamas,
THEN Hamas thanks you profusely and vociferously. Hamas needs all of the useful tools it can find for it pogrom project.
SO, get up on that pile of “innocent” Jews in Israel and employ your bullhorn for the world to see.
AND remember, you’re in good company, keep reading the New York times, the newspaper/web site of record.
JUST like when they where covering for the Nazis and Walter Duranty was winning the Pulitzer.
THEN Hamas thanks you profusely and vociferously. Hamas needs all of the useful tools it can find for it pogrom project.
SO, get up on that pile of “innocent” Jews in Israel and employ your bullhorn for the world to see.
AND remember, you’re in good company, keep reading the New York times, the newspaper/web site of record.
JUST like when they where covering for the Nazis and Walter Duranty was winning the Pulitzer.
JoePepsiCo
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A Legacy of Foreign Policy Failure
Even before he was President, the butt-of-political-jokes was mocked and knocked for his lack of acumen.
Then he became a candidate and he was praised by the Democrats, led by the nose by the Left, as the wise elder we needed to replace Donald Trump’s failed policies. And he set about reversing All of those policies. The Occupation of Afghanistan. The Wall. The Abraham Accords. He was going to right (left) our sinking ship of international credibility and standing.
Mission Accomplished!
Joe Biden was weak on Afghanistan and failed miserably. The Democrats, led by the nose by the Left, sided with the Taliban. They ignored what they do to women and gays. No Rainbow Flags in Afghanistan! “Those” people don’t want our “Inhuman” rights!
He’s been weak on our border security allowing who knows what into the country. The Democrats, led by the nose by the Left, extolled the virtues of all our newly arrived undocumented citizens labeling them as “refugees,” de facto unassailable victims.
He’s weak on Israel now, vacillating with his finger in the wind, his fickle-fated eyes on the prize, a second, even more historical term in office. The Democrats, led by the nose by the Left, are championing Hamas, I.e., the Muslim Brotherhood Nazis and denying the holocaust, “Pictures? Pictures? We don’t see no stinkin’ pictures. Pictures? Lies! Fake News. Right-wing disinformation! FOMA! Who you gonna believe bitch? US? Or your lying eyes?”
Even before he was President, the butt-of-political-jokes was mocked and knocked for his lack of acumen.
Then he became a candidate and he was praised by the Democrats, led by the nose by the Left, as the wise elder we needed to replace Donald Trump’s failed policies. And he set about reversing All of those policies. The Occupation of Afghanistan. The Wall. The Abraham Accords. He was going to right (left) our sinking ship of international credibility and standing.
Mission Accomplished!
Joe Biden was weak on Afghanistan and failed miserably. The Democrats, led by the nose by the Left, sided with the Taliban. They ignored what they do to women and gays. No Rainbow Flags in Afghanistan! “Those” people don’t want our “Inhuman” rights!
He’s been weak on our border security allowing who knows what into the country. The Democrats, led by the nose by the Left, extolled the virtues of all our newly arrived undocumented citizens labeling them as “refugees,” de facto unassailable victims.
He’s weak on Israel now, vacillating with his finger in the wind, his fickle-fated eyes on the prize, a second, even more historical term in office. The Democrats, led by the nose by the Left, are championing Hamas, I.e., the Muslim Brotherhood Nazis and denying the holocaust, “Pictures? Pictures? We don’t see no stinkin’ pictures. Pictures? Lies! Fake News. Right-wing disinformation! FOMA! Who you gonna believe bitch? US? Or your lying eyes?”
JoePepsiCo
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In the wake of the barbaric attack on Israel, many Americans have been shocked, angered, and disgusted to see woke organizations express anything other than condemnation for Hamas. On campuses and in our communities, students and organizations like Black Lives Matter have expressed support for the butchers of Jews. Meanwhile, all too many campus leaders, formerly so quick to condemn even the hint of racism, can barely muster even weak condemnation of such savagery. Many Americans find themselves shaking their heads in dismay.
Where does this blindness come from? Why are so many people who think of themselves as crusaders for justice so misguided?
It is a complicated story. But one key part of that story is the way that civil rights, which began as a cause, became an ideology. Eventually that ideology metastasized into “anti-racism,” a radical legal doctrine that scholar John McWhorter suggests is nothing less than a secular “religion.” The once-noble cause of civil rights changed. No longer merely about ending specific acts of discrimination in voting, employment, and public accommodations, it became a crusade to rectify the wrongs of slavery, Jim Crow, and the lingering legacy of institutional racism. [snip] The woke movement’s larger hope is to transform America, and the world, fundamentally. The historical record is a sad one, full of barbarism, tragedy, and savagery. One can hardly blame people for wishing the future might be less bloody than the past. But if the tragic side of human life is due to the inevitable contradictions in the human condition, such idealism always tends to cross over into misanthropy. There is a deep moral lesson in the story of Satan being a fallen angel. [snip] In other words, todays wokesters combine the hatred of racial discrimination with a radical desire for a utopian future. And Jews are in the way of that project. That is hardly a novel turn in history. Hitler called the Holocaust the “Final Solution.” It was, more exactly, “The Final Solution to the Jewish Question.” Like today’s progressives, Hitler had hope for a better future: “I believe in a conclusive understanding among peoples which will come sooner or later. There is no point in bringing about co-operation among nations, based upon permanent understanding, until this Jewish fission-fungus of peoples has been removed.” Karl Marx said something similar. In his essay on “The Jewish Question,” Marx said that progress would not take place until Jews stopped being Jews. The Hamas Charter expresses a similar version of the Muslim apocalypse…
To allow religious and ethnic diversity is to allow a world in which tragic divisions and choices remain fundamental to politics, with the terrible consequences they necessarily entail. To recognize the necessity of a Jewish Israel is to reject comprehensive progress through merely human (as opposed to divine) means. Rather than admit that, many American progressives choose to shoot the messenger, or, as in this case, to back those who will.
Richard Samuelson
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2023/10/14/why_the_woke_support_hamas_149903.html
Hat tip: Clarice Feldman
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2023/10/time_for_wokesters_to_stick_a_sock_in_it.html
(The rundown on the allies of genocide from #BlackLivesMatter to the UNRWA)
#HeyHeyHoHoIsraelHasGotToGo!
#TheNewNazisRus
Where does this blindness come from? Why are so many people who think of themselves as crusaders for justice so misguided?
It is a complicated story. But one key part of that story is the way that civil rights, which began as a cause, became an ideology. Eventually that ideology metastasized into “anti-racism,” a radical legal doctrine that scholar John McWhorter suggests is nothing less than a secular “religion.” The once-noble cause of civil rights changed. No longer merely about ending specific acts of discrimination in voting, employment, and public accommodations, it became a crusade to rectify the wrongs of slavery, Jim Crow, and the lingering legacy of institutional racism. [snip] The woke movement’s larger hope is to transform America, and the world, fundamentally. The historical record is a sad one, full of barbarism, tragedy, and savagery. One can hardly blame people for wishing the future might be less bloody than the past. But if the tragic side of human life is due to the inevitable contradictions in the human condition, such idealism always tends to cross over into misanthropy. There is a deep moral lesson in the story of Satan being a fallen angel. [snip] In other words, todays wokesters combine the hatred of racial discrimination with a radical desire for a utopian future. And Jews are in the way of that project. That is hardly a novel turn in history. Hitler called the Holocaust the “Final Solution.” It was, more exactly, “The Final Solution to the Jewish Question.” Like today’s progressives, Hitler had hope for a better future: “I believe in a conclusive understanding among peoples which will come sooner or later. There is no point in bringing about co-operation among nations, based upon permanent understanding, until this Jewish fission-fungus of peoples has been removed.” Karl Marx said something similar. In his essay on “The Jewish Question,” Marx said that progress would not take place until Jews stopped being Jews. The Hamas Charter expresses a similar version of the Muslim apocalypse…
To allow religious and ethnic diversity is to allow a world in which tragic divisions and choices remain fundamental to politics, with the terrible consequences they necessarily entail. To recognize the necessity of a Jewish Israel is to reject comprehensive progress through merely human (as opposed to divine) means. Rather than admit that, many American progressives choose to shoot the messenger, or, as in this case, to back those who will.
Richard Samuelson
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2023/10/14/why_the_woke_support_hamas_149903.html
Hat tip: Clarice Feldman
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2023/10/time_for_wokesters_to_stick_a_sock_in_it.html
(The rundown on the allies of genocide from #BlackLivesMatter to the UNRWA)
#HeyHeyHoHoIsraelHasGotToGo!
#TheNewNazisRus
ChloeTzang
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Oh, I agree completely. But you did ask how to de-escalate the situation between Gaza and Israel?, and I answered.
What's going to happen is that Gaza is going to be hammered for the next year, to a year and a half, as Israel progressively dismantles and eliminates Hamas, with the collateral damage being the complete destruction of Gaza and thousands of dead Palestinians. Because Israel at this point will accept nothing less than the complete annihilation of Hamas. They've even written off the Israeli hostages as bargaining chips. They're not interested in bargaining with Hamas, and why would they be?
There is no other path to de-escalation at this point. Gaza is fucked.
ChloeTzang
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You and everyone else knows very well that Israel does NOT commit war crimes. And don't give me the vapid shit that killing civilians is a war crime. It's not, where the intended target is military and civilians are collateral damage. You may not like it, but it's NOT a war crime. As the Russia-Ukraine war has illustrated.
Hamas, on the other hand, has. Hamas also embed their units within civilian areas, using human shields. Well, tough shit for the human shields. Perfectly within the "rules of war" to hit those units and the human shields are shit out of luck. But shit out of luck is NOT a war crime. The US Govt has NOT given tacit approval for any and all war crimes in any way whatsoever.
So stop with the Hamas talking points.
jaF0
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You and everyone else knows very well that's an outright, bold faced lie.
Let'em ramble on, self-identify as it were. The world is turning and it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
The people that were content to just get on with their own lives and let the mouth-breathers say and do outrageous shit are starting to get pissed off. The push back is probably going to get ugly as well.
zipman
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Biden came out right away, denounced the attacks, told Israel they had our total support and sent an aircraft carrier to the region to deter Iran and other Arab countries from getting involved.
Trump ridiculed Netanyahu and praised Hezbollah for being very smart.
Now tell us again how you don't support support Trump, A_J.
ll74
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ll74
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Using white phosphorus is a war crime.
Israel does take care to avoid non military targets, BUT their shit is not fully clean.
That is subject to it's intended use. The use of white phosphorus in and of itself is NOT a war crime.,
ll74
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Sorry, you're correct. Israel's use of white phosphorus was a war crime. According to reports - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...us-weapons-gaza-human-rights-group-rcna120272
Thanks for helping me clarify.
ChloeTzang
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Without Biden's idiocy, altho I should really say the Biden Administration, because we all know Biden is a puppet that they dose up and rollout to read from the teleprompter (as best he can), this whole thing would never have happened. But no, they had to undo everything Trump did in the Middle East and THIS is the end result. As for an aircraft carrier, really, what are they going to do? Bomb Hamas? I don't think we'll be joining in. Bomb Hezbollah? That didn't work out so well for us last time. Threaten Iran? Why would they do anything more? They've caused chaos, which was what Russian has no doubt paid them to do. They have Saudi Arabia increasingly onside. Why would they need to do anything else.
Thanks again, Joe. Trump has nothing to do with this. He's just the bogeyman Democrats jerk off to blaming everything for.
ll74
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The blame Biden thread is here -> https://forum.literotica.com/thread...er-israel-at-war.1596812/page-5#post-97666397
snailspace
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In every conflict there the playback is identical. The HRW says Israel uses white phosphorus.
jaF0
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You spelled Netanyahu wrong.
ll74
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Wtf are you talking about?
ChloeTzang
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Under protocol 3 - prohibition of use of certain conventional weapons - using willy pete in heavily built up civilian areas is a war crime, as has been pointed out to Russian time and time again with regard to Ukraine. Russia ignores this as they haven't signed protocol 3 of the convention on the prohibition of use of certain conventional weapons, which has largely only been signed by foolish western governments as a feel good thing for the lefties. Real militaries realize war is war and you need to fight with everything available, including anti-personnel mines, cluster munitions and yes, white phosphorous.
Israel has denied using WP in Gaza. Israel’s military initially said it was “currently not aware of the use of weapons containing white phosphorus in Gaza”. Later, it hardened its response, saying: “The current accusation … regarding the use of white phosphorus in Gaza is unequivocally false.”
White phosphorus is considered an incendiary weapon under protocol 3 of the convention on the prohibition of use of certain conventional weapons. The protocol prohibits using incendiary weapons against military targets located among civilians, although Israel has not signed it and is not bound by it. Ergo, there is NO war crime. Israel has not signed the protocol, is not bound by it, and therefore, even if white phosphorous was used, no war crime has been committed.
It may be horrible (war is). You may not like it and you may cry a river of tears over it, but it is NOT a war crime. Suck it up and put your big boy panties on. It's a war. Wars are in fact horrible and they result in horrible suffering. That's reality.
zipman
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The level of stupidity from those blaming Biden for this is hysterical.
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