closed Thread

[icanhelp1]

I listened to a guy on the news who supposedly had been involved in past hostage negotiations with Hamas and had had some discussions with them this time around as well. I believe he was Israeli so will obviously not be truly unbiased.

His view was that the only thing that would result in change is if they had what he called a "Belfast" moment. It was a reference to the troubles in Northern Ireland and how that only de-escalated when the general populace on both sides said enough is enough to their own leaders.

Iran is the gorilla in the room. This crap comes to an end when Iranians topple that theocracy. We missed a golden opportunity when we weren’t more supportive of the green uprising.

 

[RobDownSouth]

OMG that's an easy one. Hamas surrenders unconditionally.

The "easiest" solutions are the least likely solutions to actually happen, wouldn't you agree?

"Unconditional surrender" is an anomaly in modern history. Armistices and negotiated truces are much more prevalent.

And "unconditional surrender" is extremely unlikely to occur when religion is involved.

 

[ll74]

The "easiest" solutions are the least likely solutions to actually happen, wouldn't you agree?

"Unconditional surrender" is an anomaly in modern history. Armistices and negotiated truces are much more prevalent.

And "unconditional surrender" is extremely unlikely to occur when religion is involved.

Absolutely true The easiest solution is the least likely because Hamas has no interest in saving lives

 

[jaF0]

The Turds bring it home first.

Illinois man killed Muslim boy, 6, in hate crime motivated by Israeli-Hamas war, police say

Police charged a 71-year-old suburban Chicago man Sunday with a hate crime for fatally stabbing a 6-year-old boy and seriously wounding a 32-year-old woman.

 

[policywank]

Iran is the gorilla in the room. This crap comes to an end when Iranians topple that theocracy. We missed a golden opportunity when we weren’t more supportive of the green uprising.

Agreed. And whether we are talking about Iran or Hamas we are talking about groups that will stifle dissent by any means possible.

The leaders on both sides in Belfast could be ruthless but they were kittens compared to Iran and Hamas, so there was actually a prospect of the average person making their voice heard.

 

[policywank]

The Turds bring it home first.

Illinois man killed Muslim boy, 6, in hate crime motivated by Israeli-Hamas war, police say

Police charged a 71-year-old suburban Chicago man Sunday with a hate crime for fatally stabbing a 6-year-old boy and seriously wounding a 32-year-old woman.

Fuck. That is obviously unjust and entirely counter productive.

However, to those who would seek to use this as propaganda against Israel I would hope that they notice that this man will be punished and there will be nobody celebrating his actions (or if there are a few fringe wing nuts who do so they will be roundly condemned by the overwhelming majority of people who support Israel).

 

[policywank]

Gaza is not a prison, however Hamas have made their own prison there. They are a part of the Palestinian Authority. Their Arab brothers have given them untold amounts of money in order to improve the lives of the people who live there. What do they do with that money? The spend it on the rockets that have been showered down on my husband and I, my kids and my grandkids. I guess you think that's an okay thing to do since they live in a prison of their own making!! If they wanted peace they would not be in the position they are now, and we could all live in paradise.

And many of the Arab nations want Gaza the way it is. They want those people they're suffering for all the world to see so that they can preserve their antipathy towards Israel. That is why those countries have refused to take them in and that is why Egypt refuses to open the border crossing now.

 

[zipman]

Based on your previous statements, I doubt that would satisfy you.

I do agree that this is the best way forward for all.

It's not enough. Hamas would have to be removed from power in Gaza. It at least the view to destroy israel would have to be removed from their charter.

 

[zipman]

The other group that bears of responsibility for Hamas is the U.N. which had been a vehicle for anti-semitic hatred for decades.

 

[ll74]

It's not enough. Hamas would have to be removed from power in Gaza. It at least the view to destroy israel would have to be removed from their charter.

By turning themselves in, I would expect that includes resignation.

 

[zipman]

By turning themselves in, I would expect that includes resignation.

But it's not just about the individuals, it's about permanently dismantling Hamas as an organization.

 

[Dribble]

I wonder what the World Health Organization have said about the Palestinian casualties...what proportion has been children...or women?

No one here cares. So I am not bothering to link their latest. But it is freely available.

 

[ll74]

I wonder what the World Health Organization have said about the Palestinian casualties...what proportion has been children...or women?

No one here cares. So I am not bothering to link their latest. But it is freely available.

Thanks for telling us you can't be bothered to tell us what is bothering you

 

[dmallord]

Anyone here have any idea how to de-escalate the situation between Gaza and Israel?

[Raising my Hand!]

This is a declared war and requires solutions befitting that perspective. Entrenched wars 'de-escalate' under a number of conditions:

• being rapidly overwhelmed by an enemy force
• lack of water, food, ammunition
• the will to fight is broken
• brokered peace after contracted warring - [hasn't worked here, has it?]

Consider these. Perhaps not necessarily in any order and can be used in combination:

• Let the Israelis do what they set out to do - erase Hamas, and the USA stands in overwatch.
• Seriously, increase the USA rhetoric about returning the human shields they captured [they are not hostages; that implies some bargaining chip scenario] as the two carrier fleets begin putting up intensive aerial recon over Gaza.
• Deliver an ultimatum to Hamas to lay down arms. [Borg approach - resistance is futile.] We will stand as an ally with Israel and use our military presence's full force to terminate this war if they persist.
• Put Hamas on a deadline to deliver all of the POWs within twenty-four hours of the arrival of the fleets.
• Tactically, Israelis breach the midpoint or a point south of the city and push to the sea, severing the strip. Effectively surrounding the Hamas enclave. Clear the main exit to the designated safe area within Gaza. Declare it safe for Palestinians, without weapons, to proceed with the evacuation south as a holding place within Gaza if Egypt refuses entry. Then, take on any remaining populace as combatants in the city. Next, turn south for any missed targets.
• Put some onus on the UN to provide temporary shelters, emergency medical services, food, and water for the Palestinians. It's going to take a boatload of gold to help out nearly a million of them. Establish a UN-funded rebuilding of the Gaza Strip under a UN Charter territory.
• Put Iran on final notice - end this or meet similar consequences.

 

[RobDownSouth]

[Raising my Hand!]

This is a declared war and requires solutions befitting that perspective. Entrenched wars 'de-escalate' under a number of conditions:

• being rapidly overwhelmed by an enemy force
• lack of water, food, ammunition
• the will to fight is broken
• brokered peace after contracted warring - [hasn't worked here, has it?]

Consider these. Perhaps not necessarily in any order and can be used in combination:

• Let the Israelis do what they set out to do - erase Hamas, and the USA stands in overwatch.
• Seriously, increase the USA rhetoric about returning the human shields they captured [they are not hostages; that implies some bargaining chip scenario] as the two carrier fleets begin putting up intensive aerial recon over Gaza.
• Deliver an ultimatum to Hamas to lay down arms. [Borg approach - resistance is futile.] We will stand as an ally with Israel and use our military presence's full force to terminate this war if they persist.
• Put Hamas on a deadline to deliver all of the POWs within twenty-four hours of the arrival of the fleets.
• Tactically, Israelis breach the midpoint or a point south of the city and push to the sea, severing the strip. Effectively surrounding the Hamas enclave. Clear the main exit to the designated safe area within Gaza. Declare it safe for Palestinians, without weapons, to proceed with the evacuation south as a holding place within Gaza if Egypt refuses entry. Then, take on any remaining populace as combatants in the city. Next, turn south for any missed targets.
• Put some onus on the UN to provide temporary shelters, emergency medical services, food, and water for the Palestinians. It's going to take a boatload of gold to help out nearly a million of them. Establish a UN-funded rebuilding of the Gaza Strip under a UN Charter territory.
• Put Iran on final notice - end this or meet similar consequences.

Appreciate your detailed response. Not sure if what you propose is "de-escalation", though. Your approach does, however, upset the status quo in the region. I'm not sure the major players (who, let's face it, are fighting a proxy war through Gaza) would allow this to happen.

 

[Dribble]

This is what the media creates by not telling the truth

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/us/chicago-landlord-attack-muslim-boy-mother/index.html

 

[RandyRebecca]

Anyone here have any idea how to de-escalate the situation between Gaza and Israel?

Stop giving support, weapons and aid to Israel. Put massive pressure on them to stop their warmongering and occupation BS. They must immediately be made to withdraw all Israeli settlements completely from the West Bank and end any blockades there and in Gaza.

Better still, end the Zionist project completely and live in Palestine as one people of all religions and none.

Not this time, and I didn't know it was a competition! Why can't the Hamas just live in peace with us in their enclave. We don't want them and they don't want us! So, let's agree to disagree. But NO HAMAS DO NOT WANT TO LIVE IN PEACE, DON'T YOU GET THAT?

Israel don't want to live in peace and never have. Israel was built over the expulsion of over 700,000 Palestinians from their land. Israel is the occupying power, brutally oppressing the Palestinian population. Do you get that?

Do we, the Israelis have to swallow 2,500 deaths and just say to the Hamas, oh thank you so much we did not need those women, children, babies or men???? Where is the sense in that? If you know anything about Arab culture you have to know that they will always attack us.

Go back centuries, and "Arab culture" in the Middle East was very civilized indeed compared to "Christian culture" in European countries. Israel is a brutal occupying imperialist power. That violence is far and above anything that Hamas does, thousands of times over at least.

Gaza is not a prison, however Hamas have made their own prison there.

Israel has blockaded Gaza. They have turned it into an open air prison, a ghetto, call it what you like.

They are a part of the Palestinian Authority.

Ah yes. The Oslo Accords that Israel used, after Yitzhak Rabin's death anyway, to pass the buck of opposing the Palestinian fighters from Israel proper to the "Palestinian Authority", while Israel proceeds to build more settlements on Palestinian land, or does propaganda methods like pulling out of Gaza and then turning the place into an open air prison that is blockaded.

Did the Israelis cross over the fence to murder, rape and burn the bodies of Hamas? Do you know what the Hamas do to their own people? The 'evils of Israel' who are you? You are probably a troll here for the Palestinians! I don't think I'll bother to respond to your 'evil' anymore!

They shoot Palestinian kids for throwing stones, bulldoze Palestinian houses to the ground etc. Yes, I support oppressed peoples against imperialist crimes. It is vile and monstrous what Israel is doing.

 

[PersonalFavors]

The media drones on and on about the drama. In the end gaza cleared of iranians or not, there is still the west bank where Jordan has banished all their Palestinians. It is never ending.
Before we/they get to that the media is ignoring Lebanon. How come we have heard from no Lebanese? It is their cities that will be decimated as Hezbola(SP?) is eliminated. I am also not sure about Lebanon. But Gaza /west bank voted the iranians in power. Or did they steal the election?

 

[RandyRebecca]

The media drones on and on about the drama. In the end gaza cleared of iranians or not, there is still the west bank where Jordan has banished all their Palestinians. It is never ending.
Before we/they get to that the media is ignoring Lebanon. How come we have heard from no Lebanese? It is their cities that will be decimated as Hezbola(SP?) is eliminated. I am also not sure about Lebanon. But Gaza /west bank voted the iranians in power. Or did they steal the election?

Hezbollah has beaten Israel multiple times before, most recently in 2006.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Lebanon_conflict_(1985–2000)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War

Hezbollah are much stronger than Hamas militarily. Hezbollah came into being during the Lebanese Civil War, where, you guessed it, Israeli atrocities were committed, including against Palestinians like at Sabra and Shatila. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

 

[Fuzzy1975]

The media drones on and on about the drama.

Yes people dying is "drama".

In the end gaza cleared of iranians or not, there is still the west bank where Jordan has banished all their Palestinians.

There are no Iranian's, it is the Palestinians.

It is never ending.

At some point it has to end.

Before we/they get to that the media is ignoring Lebanon. How come we have heard from no Lebanese? It is their cities that will be decimated as Hezbola(SP?) is eliminated. I am also not sure about Lebanon.

I've read about Lebanon, maybe expand your news sources?

But Gaza /west bank voted the iranians in power. Or did they steal the election?

The last election in Gaza was in 2006. The Iranians are not in power in Gaza, Hamas is, and they are Palestinians.

 

[ll74]

This is what the media creates by not telling the truth

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/us/chicago-landlord-attack-muslim-boy-mother/index.html

Sure it does

 

[jaF0]

I'd rather the UN permanently dismantle the state of Israel.

On paper, the same way it was created.
.

 

[RandyRebecca]

I'd rather the UN permanently dismantle the state of Israel.

On paper, the same way it was created.
.

Unfortunately, the UN is little more than a talking shop for the big imperialist powers of the world.

 

[jaF0]

And still ....

UN aid chief says six months of war in Sudan has killed 9,000 people​

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/ip3/abcnews.go.com.icoABC News|1 hour ago
The United Nations humanitarian chief says Sudan's war between the military and a powerful paramilitary group has killed up to 9,000 people and created "one of the worst humanitarian nightmares in recent history." FILE - South Sudanese who fled from ...


... aomg other similar conflicts in the region.

 

[RandyRebecca]

Yemen is one that is rarely mentioned in the news.