Church. Why?

[njlauren]

No, it doesn't. The bible says God first created heaven and earth, then said "let there be light". The earth or any other celestial bodies didn't form until well after the big bank, The universe is like 14 billion years old, and stars and planets probably took about 100 million years after the big bang. Stars likely formed before planets did, for the very reason that stars had to condense and form to have the gravitational field to hold planets. Then too it says God created light and dark ie night and day, but that is a function of planetary spin. Also says it made the stars after the earth, and a ton of other things that make no sense.

As far as where did the matter come from, we know that matter and energy are the same thing, and the big bang was basically a gigantic burst of energy that coalesced into matter (it is a lot more complicated then that), and we also know energy can neither be created nor destroyed, same with matter. If so, then you can't have creation as we know it, it implies that energy or matter has been around pretty much forever. You can argue that that energy is the universe and is God and maybe it is.

 

[njlauren]

Therein lies the problem, there are people in the church who feel called, who want to help people, to show them love and make their lives less miserable. That is what the church, any church, is supposed to be about, people coming together to help each other and themselves (remember, the early worshippers didn't even have priests, people preached as the spirit hit them).

The problem is when you talk about, not an individual church, but "The Church". The problem is when the Church set up a hierarchy, when they came up with a power base, when you had men who became Bishops and Cardinals and the like (or whatever the church had), people aspire to that and the corruption happens. This is the Church that tried to censor a group of nuns because they were busy helping the poor and weak and weren't out on the road beating the drum against abortion or gay people. We had a church hierarchy that felt protecting priests was more important than protecting chilldren then spent years denying it, or a Pope, instead of acting with outrage, basically said "Make this go away, it bothers me, I have the important work of doing away with abortion and demonizing LGBT people, because that is all that matters in the church".

The problem is that the churches become powerful forces and then the corruption of power come in, where dogmatic purity matters more than what they should be doing, showing love and bringing the real spirit of God to people. It is when churches align themselves with political forces that totally go against their teaching, whether it was the churches in Nazi Germany or the churches the last couple of elections who basically anointed Trump because they figured he would give them what they wanted, Roe overturned and LGBT people beaten back into the closet, supporting a man who is quite frankly an amoral pig. If Trump was a Democrat the church leaders would have denounced him as immoral, unfit for office; with Trump we got "heh heh well, he is a little rough around the edges, he isn't perfect" while supporting him. This is the same church that supported Trump who is a racist, who is someone who has cheated on all his wives, slept with porn stars, gotten probably a dozen women pregnant and made them get abortions, and then denounces Biden, who is a decent person,who really is a person of faith and want to pull his right to communion because he separates his personal faith from the law. Catholic politicians promote the creed that the rich are blessed, give huge tax cuts to the well off while slashing spending on the poor, and the church says "tut, tut bad boy" and write him a letter......

The problem isn't faith, it is those who use the power the church has for their own personal interest and when they use it basically for secular power, not doing what they should, helping people and making their lives better, not promoting their own power and control. The history of churches shows that once they become powerful they become more a political body than anything else. In the medieval period they promoted the idea of the divine right of kings and told people their duty was to obey the king and nobles because God put them in their position, told people their lives on this earth were meaningless so the suffering they had was not important, they would see paradise in heaven (and in return, collected huge taxes from earthly princes).

Time and again instead of being a check on secular power being misused, they allied themselves with it. Whether it was slavery, whether it was the feudal system, whether it was big business in the industrial revolution, the church leaders (and I am not talking just the Catholic church) often aligned themselves with the Rich and Poweful. The mainstream protestant churches like the Catholic Church and the Episcopal Church and the Presbytyrians aligned themselves with the industrialists and denounced labor organizing and unions as the Devil's work, and when they finally tried to pass child labor laws the churches denounced it, saying that was a matter between the employer and the employee (!) and that right came from God......(and for those who want to say bullshit, there have been a lot of great books written on this topic).

And need i mention the mega churches, the Joel Osteens, the Televangelists and their corruption?

 

[Tryharder62]

It's a good thing atheists don't want to be rich and powerful!

 

[lovepussy691]

I refuse to believe that this many people on this Board can be this ignorant of God, Tithing... Money and The Church.

There is NO excuse for this!

At least find out what you are trying to belittle!

I personally think that there are many Churches that do a lot of good that goes unrecognized. I remember looking for a homeless shelter for someone and so many Churches came up on Google. There are a lot of Churches that do good and in this day and age I think this is extremely necessary.

 

[colddiesel]

A human can with the help of the Holy Spirit!

Do you mean the Holy Spirit called Advaita by the Hindus, Spenta Mainyu, or Dharma, because those three holy spirits were around for hundreds of years before your team pinched the idea.

 

[Tryharder62]

Do you mean the Holy Spirit called Advaita by the Hindus, Spenta Mainyu, or Dharma, because those three holy spirits were around for hundreds of years before your team pinched the idea.

Close,but no cigar. The Holy Spirit has been around before Creation and took part in it. Hard to pre-date that. Who is pinching the idea?

https://www.thomasnelsonbibles.com/blog/the-holy-spirit-in-the-old-testament/

 

[stickygirl]

I personally think that there are many Churches that do a lot of good that goes unrecognized. I remember looking for a homeless shelter for someone and so many Churches came up on Google. There are a lot of Churches that do good and in this day and age I think this is extremely necessary.

Except some church based charities are kinda picky about who they help: take the Salvation Army , which has a bad attitude towards transgender people. The whole point of the Samaritan parable, was that Samaritans were regarded as scum by the Jews.

The catholic church has a appallingly anti-LGBT and misogynistic attitude.

No, you either help all of god's children without discrimination or don't bother at all. Fitting their narrow requirements for who deserves their "help ( tax-deductable of course )" doesn't so just cut the ice, it helps Hell freeze over.

 

[pecksniff]

A human can with the help of the Holy Spirit!

Spirits might help, all right, but only if they ain't holy.

 

[Tryharder62]

Spirits might help, all right, but only if they ain't holy.

Are we talking demons or booze?

 

[colddiesel]

Close,but no cigar. The Holy Spirit has been around before Creation and took part in it. Hard to pre-date that. Who is pinching the idea?

https://www.thomasnelsonbibles.com/blog/the-holy-spirit-in-the-old-testament/

Not even close. There never was any event which you call 'creation.' The Solar System is 4.5 billion years old. The Universe started with a big bang almost 15 billion years ago. It has all been evolving quite nicely ever since

The Fairy stories found in the Old Testament were written down from about 2100 to 2500 years ago. A basic knowledge of Physics and Mathematics might help your understanding - but bedtime stories for Gullible Religionists won't cut it. The Gathas, Vedas and sundry older texts were the sources for almost all the basic ideas you will find repeated ad nauseum in Judeo Christian nonsense literature.

I'm not even going to challenge your quaint idea that something (anything!) existed before 'creation.' A self defeating philosophical nonsense, but I am too kind to press the point.

 

[Tryharder62]

Not even close. There never was any event which you call 'creation.' The Solar System is 4.5 billion years old. The Universe started with a big bang almost 15 billion years ago. It has all been evolving quite nicely ever since

The Fairy stories found in the Old Testament were written down from about 2100 to 2500 years ago. A basic knowledge of Physics and Mathematics might help your understanding - but bedtime stories for Gullible Religionists won't cut it. The Gathas, Vedas and sundry older texts were the sources for almost all the basic ideas you will find repeated ad nauseum in Judeo Christian nonsense literature.

I'm not even going to challenge your quaint idea that something (anything!) existed before 'creation.' A self defeating philosophical nonsense, but I am too kind to press the point.

Well, I'm a biology girl. Life exhibits such complexity that it could not have come from a bang and fallen together randomly. By the way, didn't the big bang theory begin in 1920, by a guy who speculates what happened 15 billion years ago and could not possibly prove it by scientific method?

I agree though, God's creation is good and has been adapting well.

So I am quaint. I kind of like that....attractively unusual. I am not defeated but thanks for being kind. Today really stunk.

TGIF

 

[pecksniff]

WBy the way, didn't the big bang theory begin in 1920, by a guy who speculates what happened 15 billion years ago and could not possibly prove it by scientific method?

Well, the universe is expanding now, and there is no evidence it has not always been expanding, so it's really a matter of extrapolation backward.

 

[stickygirl]

Arguing religion and logic is like mixing oil and water and will go on as pointlessly as discussing gun legislation in America. I'll bale, Have a nice day

 

[Tryharder62]

Arguing religion and logic is like mixing oil and water and will go on as pointlessly as discussing gun legislation in America. I'll bale, Have a nice day

If your logic is correct why are there Christian Scientists? I believe in Science.
I have no life so...... talking about this is fun for me. Would you come back if I posted my recipe for Hawaiian party weiners? (No, not that kind of weiner) It is heavenly.

Well, the universe is expanding now, and there is no evidence it has not always been expanding, so it's really a matter of extrapolation backward.

There is no evidence that it has always been expanding either.

 

[butters]

Well, I'm a biology girl. Life exhibits such complexity that it could not have come from a bang and fallen together randomly. By the way, didn't the big bang theory begin in 1920, by a guy who speculates what happened 15 billion years ago and could not possibly prove it by scientific method?

I agree though, God's creation is good and has been adapting well.

So I am quaint. I kind of like that....attractively unusual. I am not defeated but thanks for being kind. Today really stunk.

TGIF

i'm not being mean, but as a biology girl you surely understand that this statement is... well, not a true representation of what happened and is still happening, everyday, through the ongoing and well-documented process of evolution which has taken place for billions of years. Hardly a 'fallen together randomly' affair at all, but aeons of epic, naturally occurring variants in dna, experiments that fail or succeed. the failures disappear, the successes the result of adaptation to new environments or just plain super fitted for their niche in life as we know it. coelacanths, the goblin shark, horseshoe crabs... even these, though looking remarkably like their millions year old ancestors, have actually evolved over these long periods of time. changes in skeletal structure, for instance.

damn, even SARS-COV-2, the covid virus, evolves to adapt...not intentionally, as if it has a mind of its own, but when the original virus is less able to replicate in new hosts (through immunity/resistance caused by antibodies-vaccine or through having caught it and through a more aware public using social distancing/hygiene/masks etc...,), the naturally occurring variants get to spread faster as the same hosts may not be immune to those and so replicate more swiftly, becoming the predominant strains. they'll remain so until immunity (ergo lack of chances to infect and replicate leading to newer variants) holds up their progression.

science is not about 'just randomly falling into place'.

now you may be perfectly happy to assign all of this natural science to the powers of a greater being, and that's your prerogative, but please please PLEASE do not use that trite and stunningly disingenuous phrase. truth matters, tryharder.

 

[butters]

americans are supposed to be ensured the freedom to practice their religions without fear of persecution or prejudice. that's great and as it should be.

that is not the same thing as one religion being able to force all those who don't believe in it to do as its tenets command.

she has a point

https://i.imgur.com/z5dnVJF.mp4

 

[Tryharder62]

i'm not being mean, but as a biology girl you surely understand that this statement is... well, not a true representation of what happened and is still happening, everyday, through the ongoing and well-documented process of evolution which has taken place for billions of years. Hardly a 'fallen together randomly' affair at all, but aeons of epic, naturally occurring variants in dna, experiments that fail or succeed. the failures disappear, the successes the result of adaptation to new environments or just plain super fitted for their niche in life as we know it. coelacanths, the goblin shark, horseshoe crabs... even these, though looking remarkably like their millions year old ancestors, have actually evolved over these long periods of time. changes in skeletal structure, for instance.

damn, even SARS-COV-2, the covid virus, evolves to adapt...not intentionally, as if it has a mind of its own, but when the original virus is less able to replicate in new hosts (through immunity/resistance caused by antibodies-vaccine or through having caught it and through a more aware public using social distancing/hygiene/masks etc...,), the naturally occurring variants get to spread faster as the same hosts may not be immune to those and so replicate more swiftly, becoming the predominant strains. they'll remain so until immunity (ergo lack of chances to infect and replicate leading to newer variants) holds up their progression.

science is not about 'just randomly falling into place'.

now you may be perfectly happy to assign all of this natural science to the powers of a greater being, and that's your prerogative, but please please PLEASE do not use that trite and stunningly disingenuous phrase. truth matters, tryharder.

So let me understand this. Billions of years ago..."every speck of energy jammed into a very tiny point. This extremely dense point exploded with unimaginable force, creating matter and propelling it outward to make the billions of galaxies of our universe." During that big bang our DNA bind together into fragile and intricate DNA that withstand that explosion to eventially produce all the different species that land on the earth. Hmm. I'd like to see the evidence of that using the scientific method. Show me the science. Truth does matter Butters. Neither of us can prove what we believe. No one was there to gather the data.

What I can never get you to understand is that I believe in adaptation. Also, I'm a nurse and yes...I understand Covid variants.

americans are supposed to be ensured the freedom to practice their religions without fear of persecution or prejudice. that's great and as it should be.

that is not the same thing as one religion being able to force all those who don't believe in it to do as its tenets command.

she has a point

https://i.imgur.com/z5dnVJF.mp4

So your point is that only the non-religious are non-biased?

I think we both have faith but in different things.
Sing it Toby:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8xGaE4S2gk

 

[pecksniff]

If your logic is correct why are there Christian Scientists?

That is simply the name of a church. It is not actually in any way scientific. There are scientists who are Christians, but that's a different matter.

There is no evidence that it has always been expanding either.

Nevertheless.

Many converging lines of evidence support the Big-Bang model, including:

* the observed expansion of the universe
* the observed cosmic microwave background radiation and its anisotropies[3]
* the observed ratios of elements that are left over from the early universe
* simulations involving galaxy formation
* the many measurements (most of which have nothing to do with cosmology) that show that dark matter is real and not just a "fudge factor" (as some alternative theorists and creationists claim)

Note that unlike what some creationists claim, the Big-Bang theory does not attempt to describe the initial conditions or first cause of the universe. The theory merely addresses the development of the universe from its extremely dense and hot early stages into its present form. (Compare and contrast how the theory of evolution likewise does not concern itself with the origin of life on Earth; but merely with its development after its origin.) It is instructive to think of the Big Bang not as a localized explosion from which all matter moves away, but rather as a uniform expansion of space itself.[notes 1] An observer at any point in the universe sees the same thing: a homogeneous distribution of matter everywhere, with the more-and-more distant parts receding faster and faster.[4][5]

 

[pecksniff]

During that big bang our DNA bind together into fragile and intricate DNA that withstand that explosion to eventially produce all the different species that land on the earth.

Well, no. DNA did not exist until much, much later.

 

[jaF0]

So let me understand this. Billions of years ago..."every speck of energy jammed into a very tiny point. This extremely dense point exploded with unimaginable force, creating matter and propelling it outward to make the billions of galaxies of our universe."

That whole schpiel is as silly as the whole 'god' thing. It's all humans trying to explain stuff in ways humans can understand.

The simple truth is that there was no beginning and there will be no end. Space and time are limitless.

 

[jaF0]

Everything we know, everything we ever will know, all of space, time, the 'universe', as vast as we think it may be is nothing more than a microscopic speck on the sharpest point of a pin in a box of a billion pins of reality.

 

[Tryharder62]

That is simply the name of a church. It is not actually in any way scientific. There are scientists who are Christians, but that's a different matter.

Nevertheless.

I am talking about the scientists that are Christians. What am I supposed to learn from Wiki??

Well, no. DNA did not exist until much, much later.

When....how do you know?

 

[Tryharder62]

That whole schpiel is as silly as the whole 'god' thing. It's all humans trying to explain stuff in ways humans can understand.

The simple truth is that there was no beginning and there will be no end. Space and time are limitless.

Exactly, except Christians believe it is because of God.

 

[jaF0]

Well, no. DNA did not exist until much, much later.

When....how do you know?

DNA is a human designator for something that has likely existed many time longer than we have.

 

[jaF0]

Exactly, except Morons believe it is because of silliness.

Fixed your post.