Christian Fundamentalist Terrorism

[SimonBrooke]

It would appear that you, too, are getting all your information from the conflict-obsessed media . . . or possibly Dawkins/Hitchens. This is unfortunate. Stella, at least, has done research on her own.

I was for many years clerk of a Quaker meeting. My damascene conversion was slow and exceedingly painful. But my conclusion is firm. There are three fundamental doctrinal mistakes in the core of Christian teaching which are in themselves evil, and the whole is overlain with the accretion of two thousand years of exegesis by a generally corrupt, mendacious, and self-serving religious elite to the extent that it is now impossible to.recover the underlying good from the accumulated ill.

The three doctrinal issues which are irremediable are

* The doctrine of original sin. You can have a good God or you can have original sin, but you can't have both.
* The doctrine of dominion over the Earth. RIP oceans and rain forests, passim.
* To bring us right back on topic for Literotica, the doctrine of the sinfulness of human sexuality.

You can blame John and Paul as much as you like, but if we are to believe the synoptic gospels, Jesus himself told us that to look at an attractive woman and fancy her was sinful. And from that we have had two thousand years of guilt, repression, emotional wreckage, and worse.

By their fruits, sayeth the Lord, shall ye know them.

Can you - can you honestly - look at the fruits of two thousand years of Christian history and say 'this is not evil'?

 

[THROBBS]

Whaty makersd anybody think that the killer is a christisn, even a professing one? A suspect has been captured. I don't knmow what the eficence is, or if he is gui8lty at all. However, the attached article makes no mention of his religion. Suspect in Tiller's death supported killing abortion providers, friends say

It didn't atttach. I will try it agsain.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/nation/story/69151.html

There are OTHER instances of professed Christians performing "rational and utilitarian act(s) to take one life to preserve several others."

the debate has been sparked by this ONE incident, but engulfs a larger travesty.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I was for many years clerk of a Quaker meeting. My damascene conversion was slow and exceedingly painful. But my conclusion is firm. There are three fundamental doctrinal mistakes in the core of Christian teaching which are in themselves evil, and the whole is overlain with the accretion of two thousand years of exegesis by a generally corrupt, mendacious, and self-serving religious elite to the extent that it is now impossible to.recover the underlying good from the accumulated ill.

The three doctrinal issues which are irremediable are

* The doctrine of original sin. You can have a good God or you can have original sin, but you can't have both.
* The doctrine of dominion over the Earth. RIP oceans and rain forests, passim.
* To bring us right back on topic for Literotica, the doctrine of the sinfulness of human sexuality.

You can blame John and Paul as much as you like, but if we are to believe the synoptic gospels, Jesus himself told us that to look at an attractive woman and fancy her was sinful. And from that we have had two thousand years of guilt, repression, emotional wreckage, and worse.

By their fruits, sayeth the Lord, shall ye know them.

Can you - can you honestly - look at the fruits of two thousand years of Christian history and say 'this is not evil'?

It isn't really 2,000 years of Christian history. It is many years longer than that of organized religion, includingl Christianity, Islam and Flying Spaghetti Monsterism.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

1. Under Christian tradition, woman have stopped being property.

2. War has finally stopped being the rugby of the rich.

3. Those who are charitable to to others are elevated rather than thought odd.

4. Even thinking atheists know better than to take your simplistic viewpoint.

 

[Boxlicker101]

There are OTHER instances of professed Christians performing "rational and utilitarian act(s) to take one life to preserve several others."

the debate has been sparked by this ONE incident, but engulfs a larger travesty.

I am familiar with the concept. I describe it as Fosdickian. But, I am wondering what it is that leads the people on this thread to believe that the murder was done by a member of any specific religion. Both Pure and I posted a link to a description of an arrest, but there is nothing in there about the suspect's faith. There are many people of all faiths or of no faith who strongly oppose abortion.

 

[THROBBS]

I was for many years clerk of a Quaker meeting. My damascene conversion was slow and exceedingly painful. But my conclusion is firm. There are three fundamental doctrinal mistakes in the core of Christian teaching which are in themselves evil, and the whole is overlain with the accretion of two thousand years of exegesis by a generally corrupt, mendacious, and self-serving religious elite to the extent that it is now impossible to.recover the underlying good from the accumulated ill.

The three doctrinal issues which are irremediable are

* The doctrine of original sin. You can have a good God or you can have original sin, but you can't have both.
* The doctrine of dominion over the Earth. RIP oceans and rain forests, passim.
* To bring us right back on topic for Literotica, the doctrine of the sinfulness of human sexuality.

You can blame John and Paul as much as you like, but if we are to believe the synoptic gospels, Jesus himself told us that to look at an attractive woman and fancy her was sinful. And from that we have had two thousand years of guilt, repression, emotional wreckage, and worse.

By their fruits, sayeth the Lord, shall ye know them.

Can you - can you honestly - look at the fruits of two thousand years of Christian history and say 'this is not evil'?

* The doctrine of original sin. You can have a good God or you can have original sin, but you can't have both.

Why not? The "original sin" did not precede God.
If God gave man free will (which is good..?)... and man chose to use his will against God... the "original sin".

* The doctrine of dominion over the Earth. RIP oceans and rain forests, passim.

Man was given dominion over the Earth. And has been fucking it up. Yep.
Just cause dad gives you the keys to the car, does not mean that you will not get dents. We were directed to be stewards... apparently, in our fallen state we are crappy at it. Toiling against the weeds and all.

* To bring us right back on topic for Literotica, the doctrine of the sinfulness of human sexuality.

I have read of the sinfulness of "perversions" of human sexuality... but if God made Man and Woman (and all their working parts) and called it "very good"....I am inclined to believe that God's intent was that sexuality was also "very good".


Of course I may be mistook!

 

[THROBBS]

I am familiar with the concept. I describe it as Fosdickian. But, I am wondering what it is that leads the people on this thread to believe that the murder was done by a member of any specific religion. Both Pure and I posted a link to a description of an arrest, but there is nothing in there about the suspect's faith. There are many people of all faiths or of no faith who strongly oppose abortion.

Ok.
Granted.

There ARE indeed lots of misguided nuts.

As far as I am concerned, in the context of this thread... I will ignore this incident... and look to the thread title.... "Christian Fundamentalist Terrorism" as the topic

 

[Stella_Omega]

I am familiar with the concept. I describe it as Fosdickian. But, I am wondering what it is that leads the people on this thread to believe that the murder was done by a member of any specific religion. Both Pure and I posted a link to a description of an arrest, but there is nothing in there about the suspect's faith. There are many people of all faiths or of no faith who strongly oppose abortion.

What I am talking about are "Christian" statements like Randall Terry's; http://www.earnedmedia.org/sftj0531.htm

He does not express any sorrow about the man's murder, you will notice, only about his soul. And he's mostly worried that this act will hurt his abortion is murder line.

Here's what an ex-anti-abortion activist says;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/how-i-and-other-pro-life_b_209747.html

 

[Boxlicker101]

1. Under Christian tradition, woman have stopped being property.

2. War has finally stopped being the rugby of the rich.

3. Those who are charitable to to others are elevated rather than thought odd.

4. Even thinking atheists know better than to take your simplistic viewpoint.

But were these actually "Christianl tradition?" Remember, it was only about a century ago that women were still thought of as "property" of their fathers and then their husbands. Even now, some people think of them as such, including professing Christian fundamentals.

War was still a sport of kings and aristocrats even into the 19th Century. And, these kings were often strongly supported by high-ranking members of the clergy.

I think charity and acts of kindness have been around for a lot more than 2,000 years.

 

[Pure]

bio of roeder (executioner for God)

seems conscientiously compiled:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hEsxTHOvCbc954sBWc59DuoqWxiwD98I4KLO0

 

[THROBBS]

What I am talking about are "Christian" statements like Randall Terry's; http://www.earnedmedia.org/sftj0531.htm

He does not express any sorrow about the man's murder, you will notice, only about his soul. And he's mostly worried that this act will hurt his abortion is murder line.

Here's what an ex-anti-abortion activist says;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/how-i-and-other-pro-life_b_209747.html

Powerful stuff that! (both)

Thank you, for the links.

 

[john-the-author]

ok. YOU
Sit down and shut up, please.

God WILL take care of it..and as part of that, I am charged with being a good steward.

Please do not judge Christianity by the actions of a few misguided loud mouths.
Perhaps this will take a new "label" as the current one has been besmerched.
hmmm???

I figure that this will not be something that can be corrected in a few weeks, months or even years. I also believe that is not the point, to work MY agenda (or yours) within MY timeline.

Just as I believe in creation.. I also believe in evolution as PART of God's creation. Not at all at odds. I see God's "days" as potentially much longer than ours.... he has eternity to work. (besides... in Genesis...God was establishing "days" as we now know them).


I am NOT a priest or pastor as such...
I am a fallible Christian.
I HOPE to set a "better example"... but rest assured that I fuck up.


Ok..stand back up...
I am curious, as to what your "immediate solutions" are? And even what you perceive the "problem" to be?

I'd like to know what I am up against on ALL sides.

I'm judging Christianity by a lifetime of watching them slip and slide and slime their way through a lack of responsibility for their actions. I love the classic get-out-of-jail free that Christians use of "Oh, they're not really Christians." Yeah, actually, 'they' invariably qualify by the unbelievably shallow and vague standards that denotes "Christians" (a supposed acceptance of Jesus to eliminate your sin/original sin). Anything else is window dressing and it's all totally subjective anyway.

I don't see a commitment to Christians coming down on members of their own tribe for non-Christian behavior, as Stella was saying. I see them just being labeled "not Christians" which supposedly absolves the "good Christians" from further responsibility. (For example, where are the Christians beating up on the Mormons? They're all Christians--Mormons may be fucking weird, but Jesus is still the Big Guy in their pantheon. Why don't we see more Christians demanding Fred Phelps' hide, literally?)

I'm not happy with the idea of God taking care of this, because this presupposes that I believe that there is a God, there is a God like yours, that the God like yours is paying attention, that the God like yours is paying attention and cares about your rules, and that I should be happy with all of this because OF COURSE that makes sense. Pardon me, but I have a completely different belief system that does not mean that this life is a test.

I've been an English Traditional Witch for close to 32 years now and I am a priest (though not leading a group these days). I am strongly inclined to distrust the motivations of any group that says in its holy book that I should be killed. Okay, call me shallow for this POV, but Christians are not, by definition, to be trusted at the outset because I have to see ~how~ Christian they are to see if I'm in any danger. When everyone in one group you meet has a small chance of being a potential killer but you don't know who or what the chances are, you tend not to extend trust easily to that group. (Think this is a non-issue? I've met Christians who were crazy enough that I didn't think so.) If these people were really that good as Christians, they oughta be Unitarian Universalists as a sign of good faith that they're willing to consider other religions. I have a priest's attitude: you ARE responsible for the defamation of your religion by assholes. These people are definitely assholes.

I'm generally of the "the fewer Christians in the world, the better" school. I have actually met a real Christian once and I even got witnessed to by him and it was one of the great honors of my life. But the rest of them as sterling examples? Fuck 'em. Fundamentalists who are busy wanting to be martyrs for their religion--like this guy, Scott Roeder, would strongly appear to be--should be granted their hearts desire as soon as possible. They can discuss it with God as they sit at his right hand as the reward for their martyrdom. As you say, God WILL take care of it. But if this life is a test, some of these people have already failed the course. Time to give them a chance to start over.

One last thing: identifying yourself as a Christian to sit down and shut up does not go over well with non-Christians. Let me suggest that this would be a case of a Christian being less than perfect and encourage you not to do this again.

(P.S. I would like to say that I really like your art. I have always liked your art. And I don't want you to take anything in my response to suggest that I don't think you're a fantastic artist who I always like the work of.)

 

[john-the-author]

Hey, it is what I do best! (whine)

BUT. if someone is gonna challenge ME. with "Sit down and shut up" After telling me to do something.. perhaps they SHOULD sit down for a bit and listen.

HOWEVER, I do need to gather myself to the challenge. And IF John-the Author has some immediate solutions, I think I should listen.

I said Christians should sit down and shut up only if they had nothing else to offer. If you've got something else to offer other than "God will do this," then by all means, stand up and say something. I would say that there's plenty of precedent for Christians to squeeze a particular POV out of existence, such as Paul did with the Christian church in Palestine run by Jesus's relatives (cf. "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church," Dr. Malachi Martin, S.J.).

 

[john-the-author]

There will ALWAYS be those... and those...and those.

I believe that the challenge that Stella and john-the-author put forth...
was to make a "presentation".... of a "movement".. to the world.... BY "christians" to Show what we mean by "christianity".

I cannot speak to or of your brother. I also cannot judge him.< (that is biblical you know? ) so he should not be judging you or your mother, if he is subscribing to Christianity.

seems to get a bit "circular"... but mostly because, as human beans, we are flawed and we DO fall short, and we DO judge....

Not quite, Throbbs; I'm saying that
(a) if you're contending that these people aren't true followers of Christ (which I have no problem accepting as a premise, btw, but like I mentioned earlier, the standards for becoming a Christian are really, really low and Christians really don't have a "you're not a member of the club" mechanism other then excommunication)
(b) if it's true--and I think the case is self-evident--that these people cause as much damage to the perception of Christianity and anything associated with it as Jack Chick pamphlets, door-to-door missionaries, and other things that should be wiped from the face of the earth by any God paying attention

>then< I think it behooves all true Christians to do something to fix this problem. It could be a lot of things--vigorous and forceful missionary work might be a good start--but I would think that if those who sincerely do want to spread the Word would have a lot better chance if no-one had ever heard of dickheads like most of the people we're talking about.

I'm reminded of Ambrose Bierce's observation that "the problem with Marxism is Marxists, just like the problem with Christianity is Christians."

ADDED: Here's something a Christian could do to make the breed look better (and many do, too, I'm pleased to say): get out and face down the abortion protesters. They're busy waving their holy book around; go wave yours back at them. Under the circumstances and given the spark for this discussion, I think that would be a very Christian act.

 

[THROBBS]

ay yi yi...

Ok. I am "calling out" those who are beschmerching Chistianity.
I get that there are WAY too many who do shitty/evil things in the name of "christianity".

In my estimation being a Christian is NOT being perfect or holier than thou...in fact it entails ADMITTING/confessing that one is less than perfect.

You challenged me to DO something. To DO that, I asked you to sit down and shut up, (with a please) Such that you might listen to what I had to say.

I retracted that, because you had mentioned having Solutions...which you have not provided.

What I have to offer is , admittedly meager....but it is all I have.
I also believe that God doe shave a plan, which includes my meager contribution. EVEN if i have it screwed up.

 

[THROBBS]

Not quite, Throbbs; I'm saying that
(a) if you're contending that these people aren't true followers of Christ (which I have no problem accepting as a premise, btw, but like I mentioned earlier, the standards for becoming a Christian are really, really low and Christians really don't have a "you're not a member of the club" mechanism other then excommunication)
(b) if it's true--and I think the case is self-evident--that these people cause as much damage to the perception of Christianity and anything associated with it as Jack Chick pamphlets, door-to-door missionaries, and other things that should be wiped from the face of the earth by any God paying attention

>then< I think it behooves all true Christians to do something to fix this problem. It could be a lot of things--vigorous and forceful missionary work might be a good start--but I would think that if those who sincerely do want to spread the Word would have a lot better chance if no-one had ever heard of dickheads like most of the people we're talking about.

I'm reminded of Ambrose Bierce's observation that "the problem with Marxism is Marxists, just like the problem with Christianity is Christians."

Truly!


The standards of Christianity (as I believe it) ARE as low as you can go.
A "true" belief will begin to show its fruits...eventually.

Unlike Cathalocism, it is not about WORKS that you are saved.. your good deeds etc... It is your works that are a reflection of your belief and grow from that.

but hey, perhaps I am wrong.

I TRY not to judge the fundies (i DO judge them), from my weak knowledge, the hateful actions I see are NOT an example of "following in Christ's footsteps" or being a "bearer of God's Image" (perhaps a bit if you only look to Old Testament ). These actions are not what I would call "fruits of the Spirit" (love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance).

And to that extent I call them (and myself) out on that. ACCOUNTABLE.

 

[john-the-author]

1. Under Christian tradition, woman have stopped being property.

2. War has finally stopped being the rugby of the rich.

3. Those who are charitable to to others are elevated rather than thought odd.

4. Even thinking atheists know better than to take your simplistic viewpoint.

I have to disagree with some of this, VM.

It wasn't Christian tradition that did the first; as was documented so nicely in "As the Romans Did," women were getting an unprecedented measure of legal and social equality in the last 2-3 centuries of the Roman existence prior to the Christians taking over.

I'm thinking of the recent invasions of Iraq and not being able to equate that with #2.

The Talmud talked about the tradition and responsibilities of charity from long before the Christians were around and the value thereof. Christians hardly get an exclusive claim.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

And given that the alternatives throughout history haven't shown themselves to be one whit 'better' than a humble, agape-based Christianity, I fail to see where anyone on this forum has any superior claim to virtue. Furthermore, I also fail to see why those of us who have never believed in the kind of vicious violence done by one man to another Believer, in his own church, should be forced to defend those who advocate it.

Stuff it.

 

[THROBBS]

(P.S. I would like to say that I really like your art. I have always liked your art. And I don't want you to take anything in my response to suggest that I don't think you're a fantastic artist who I always like the work of.)

Thanks!

 

[THROBBS]

I think it is sound advice to get off my ass and do/say something.

Said Something here... now I'd better say it elsewhere!





Go tell it on the mountain..over the hills and everywhere!!!
(you DON'T want to hear me sing that)

 

[john-the-author]

ay yi yi...

Ok. I am "calling out" those who are beschmerching Chistianity.
I get that there are WAY too many who do shitty/evil things in the name of "christianity".

In my estimation being a Christian is NOT being perfect or holier than thou...in fact it entails ADMITTING/confessing that one is less than perfect.

You challenged me to DO something. To DO that, I asked you to sit down and shut up, (with a please) Such that you might listen to what I had to say.

I retracted that, because you had mentioned having Solutions...which you have not provided.

What I have to offer is , admittedly meager....but it is all I have.
I also believe that God doe shave a plan, which includes my meager contribution. EVEN if i have it screwed up.

Here are a few things, right off:
1. Edit the line about killing witches out of the Holy Book. (It was edited in in the first place, so it can be edited out.) Start with yours, but see what you can do elsewhere. That one line does cause a lot of people grief and distrust in Christians.
2. Support the conviction and (if meted out) execution of Scott Roeder under the law. (Two precedents here that require that: "Caesar's unto Caesar" and "God will take care of it.")
3. Discourage missionaries. Yeah, yeah, I know you're supposed to spread the Word and all that, but which is more effective: having missionaries banging on doors and spreading trite pamphlets and taking out ads on late-night TV or having people who know you coming to you eventually and saying "Man, you have an inner glow that you carry with you. How do you do that?" I contend that I've seen all the usual tracts and met tons of missionaries at my door who wouldn't have the qualifications to make good bridge-decking, and the ONE true Christian I ever met (20 years ago) ~still~ fills my life with hope for the breed and did more to make me think about converting than everything I've experienced before or since. Now that's witnessing!
4. When Christians are not living up to their... well, their charter, do what you can to snap them in line. I know that Christians aren't perfect; I've seen 'em. What I would like to see is a world where seeing a fish icon didn't immediately mean "bad driver" or (in the case of all but one of the businesses I've seen it on) "cheap and unethical businessperson." (I have a NOTABLE counterexample to the latter in a field not noted for quality and character: roofers! Howie & Phil, Lo-Berg Roofing in the Seattle area, who were not just good workman, but they were really good people, something you could see from a block away.)

There were a few other things on my mental list that, upon reflection, aren't fair of me to ask (much less expect) and I won't.

 

[john-the-author]

Truly!


The standards of Christianity (as I believe it) ARE as low as you can go.
A "true" belief will begin to show its fruits...eventually.

Unlike Cathalocism, it is not about WORKS that you are saved.. your good deeds etc... It is your works that are a reflection of your belief and grow from that.

but hey, perhaps I am wrong.

I TRY not to judge the fundies (i DO judge them), from my weak knowledge, the hateful actions I see are NOT an example of "following in Christ's footsteps" or being a "bearer of God's Image" (perhaps a bit if you only look to Old Testament ). These actions are not what I would call "fruits of the Spirit" (love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance).

And to that extent I call them (and myself) out on that. ACCOUNTABLE.

I like the idea of works being a reflection of your spirit. That's a very meaningful description. I'll use that in the future and think about you when I do. Well done! (I believe that it's not enough to be a good person--though it's vital--but that you must also do things to help the world and do your part of the Great Work.)

Most fundamentalists don't make the cut for "human" in my book, but by the same token, the one True Christian I've known is fundamentalist, even possibly literalist (though I think not). But his is a light that is so visibly NOT under a bushel that you never really have to ask. He's probably as fine a person as I can ever hope to know. I admire him enormously.

 

[Corylea]

* The doctrine of original sin. You can have a good God or you can have original sin, but you can't have both.

Why not? The "original sin" did not precede God.
If God gave man free will (which is good..?)... and man chose to use his will against God... the "original sin".

Why? Because no good person holds others responsible for actions that they have not, themselves, performed. If Adam and Eve transgressed, then every human is guilty for all time? We all share the guilt for actions that were taken centuries before we were born? Man, that's some draconian law. Even the craziest, most power-loving dictators haven't been THAT over-the-top.

* The doctrine of dominion over the Earth. RIP oceans and rain forests, passim.

Man was given dominion over the Earth. And has been fucking it up. Yep.
Just cause dad gives you the keys to the car, does not mean that you will not get dents. We were directed to be stewards... apparently, in our fallen state we are crappy at it. Toiling against the weeds and all.

Let's not use the example of the car; let's use the example of the little sister. If Dad asks you to babysit your little sister, he doesn't give you "dominion" over her; he asks you to take care of her. The use of the word "dominion" implies a separation between humans and nature and furthermore implies that humans are superior to nature. If we treated Nature like a little sister, we would not be strip mining her, dumping garbage into her, or razing forests. Plus, the dominion-over-nature thing sets up the whole idea that dominion is a good and natural relationship to have with living things. Whether it's kings over serfs or men over women, the idea that dominion is a right and necessary relationship to have with living things finds its origin in humans' dominion over the earth.

* To bring us right back on topic for Literotica, the doctrine of the sinfulness of human sexuality.

I have read of the sinfulness of "perversions" of human sexuality... but if God made Man and Woman (and all their working parts) and called it "very good"....I am inclined to believe that God's intent was that sexuality was also "very good".

Er, you're making Simon's argument for him. Many pagans believe that human sexuality is good -- perhaps even sacred or a route to understanding the Divine -- but this is NOT what's in the Bible. If there is a God, then this intent of Hirs that you've discerned is NOT manifest in Christianity, and if there is no God, then the whole thing is hogwash to begin with.

 

[sr71plt]

The literalist readers of the Bible (once again the Christian Fundamentalists and the zealot athiests holding hands, apparently) certainly do get tied up in knots on how to approach a balanced life inside a Christian tradition.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

This thread started out as a protest against a perversion of a faith and has degenerated into a kind of grade school playground bullying. Petty, petty, petty.

Martin Luther King, Jr. was a pastor who led his people towards equality knowing full well that the assassination that happened was likely. It didn't stop him.

Martin Luther was the first successful revolutionary in history. He formed modern German, broke the power of the Vatican bureaucracy and began the rise of nation-states in northern Europe.

Where in history have atheists stood in the forefront of the anti-war movement? Which self-proclaimed witches denounced the Viet Nam War? Where were the non-believers who were martyred resisting Hitler, Stalin or Mao?

Unrestricted evil, my foot!

I'm now going to go find some well-mannered people to talk to.