Cervical Penetration

[Homburg]

The thing that I don’t understand is how everyone can so blatantly assume that. This is something their is not much information on, all that is present here so far is just initial impression sort of stuff. Speculation and doctors who don’t want to spend the 8 hours necessary to dilate a cervix without injury are not sufficient reasons in my opinion.

They are not assuming anything. Many of the people posting here are, or were, medical professionals. They are posting active, current medical information. Serious, time-tested, and widely accepted practices designed to protect women from active, serious harm. We're not talking discomfort. We're not talking stress. We're not talking expense. We're talking HARM.

The second reason why this is not an assumption is because we're on the internet. One of the great truths of the internet is that it doesn't matter how sick, twisted, or fucked up your kink is, there will be someone out there on the internet willing to help you fullfill, and a third person that will pay to watch. It's just that simple. The corollary to this is that odds are very good that no matter how sick, twisted, or fucked up your kink is, someone has probably already made a website for it.

Can you find a website on cervical penetration? Information on how to do it? Information on body modification of the cervix? I doubt so, or you would have included it in this post, or referred to it. Does that mean that you are alone in your kink? Not bloody likely, statistically speaking. Occam's razor leads me to say that there ain't a whole lot of info out there on this because it is unworkable, not because you are so very unique in your kink.

And "don’t want to spend the 8 hours necessary to dilate a cervix"? Do what? Have you never heard of childbirth? I know women that would've killed to have only taken 8 hours to dilate. And that was while they were being hit by their hormones telling the cervix to dilate AND pitocin.

 

[00Syd]

If a guy ever asked me to do that I would kick him in the nuts and then kick him out the door.

No fucking way am I risking having my cervix fall out of my vagina for any man.

YC, I've enjoyed a lot of your posts in the past. But the fact that you continue to believe that fucking a women's cervix is a) possible, and b) a good idea, after all the good evidence given to you on the contrary, makes me think that there is a good bit of stubborn ass in you. As far as fucking a cervix goes, you really need to think with your brain, not with your dick.

Like others have said, I think that this fantasy of yours should stay a fantasy.

 

[YourCaptor]

oo and dont forget bloodletting to let the evil spirits out or cutting the hair to allow the fever to escape.

Modern medicine inserts laminaria or seaweed sticks into the cervix and prostaglandin ointment (both require a prescription AND training) to dilate the cervix. Also needing a prescription and the training to start an IV because it's given over the time needed to dilate the cervix is the drug, pitocin. Both treatments require a long period of time for the dilation to occur and cause extreme pain to the patient as more and more seaweed are inserted into the os, or the opening. The uterus, since it's just one big muscle, reacts to the prostaglandin (a hormone) and the something in the laminaria and begins to soften, then the pitocin hits the bloodstream and the woman starts to have cramps that make the worst period feel like a walk in the park. The stronger the contractions..yes.. I said..contractions.. the faster she dilates. Stop the medication and the dilation stops. It's used before some procedures and is also used to induce labor.

And even if modern medicine requires a wider dilation, which I've never had it go more than 3-4 cm for surgery, usually it's nothing wider than a Yankaur tube, but that's still using the sterile field the the surgical arena, with a trained PHYSICIAN holding the instruments and drugs on board to anesthetize the patient. Also, unless they are removing part of the cervix to diagnose cervical cancer, the cervix itself is not damaged and certainly is not penetrated by anything with increased friction like a finger and/or a penis.

If anything is placed in the cervical canal, such as laminaria or just simple gauze it causes the cervix to soften. Laminaria has the added effect of absorbing moisture and expanding.

I have also read about a balloon that is placed in the canal and then slowly inflated with saline. Supposedly if you place something expandability like that between the two orifices it has the best results as opposed to dilating the orifices directly.

Pitocin, never heard of it, will look into it.

 

[EmpressFi]

If anything is placed in the cervical canal, such as laminaria or just simple gauze it causes the cervix to soften. Laminaria has the added effect of absorbing moisture and expanding.

I have also read about a balloon that is placed in the canal and then slowly inflated with saline. Supposedly if you place something expandability like that between the two orifices it has the best results as opposed to dilating the orifices directly.

Pitocin, never heard of it, will look into it.

Which two orifices? I'm still confused by that. A woman has the opening to the vaginal cavity, then the cervical os or opening then has two openings at the top of the uterus, one for each fallopian tube. So I'm not exactly sure which two orifices you're thinking of

Here.. let me help you..

Here is a list of sites

http://pregnancy.about.com/od/induction/f/pitocin.htm
http://www.birthingnaturally.net/birthplan/intervention/induction/pitocin.html
http://www.birthpsychology.com/messages/pitdrip/pitdrip.html
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/oxytocin.htm This one might be too technical for you, but I wanted you to have ALL the facts.
http://www.medicinenet.com/oxytocin-injectable/article.htm

This was my favorite part:

SIDE EFFECTS: Nausea, vomiting, cramping, and stomach pain may occur. If any of these effects persist or worsen, notify the doctor promptly. Tell the doctor immediately if any of these serious side effects occur in the mother: irregular heartbeat, dizziness, lightheadedness, swelling, severe bleeding (after childbirth), seizures, headache, blurred vision, one-sided weakness. Tell your doctor immediately if any of these serious side effects occur in the newborn: irregular heartbeat, yellowing eyes or skin, bleeding in the eyes, seizures. An allergic reaction to this drug is unlikely, but seek immediate medical attention if it occurs. Symptoms of an allergic reaction include: rash, itching, swelling, dizziness, trouble breathing. If you notice other effects not listed above, contact your doctor or pharmacist.

And "don’t want to spend the 8 hours necessary to dilate a cervix"? Do what? Have you never heard of childbirth? I know women that would've killed to have only taken 8 hours to dilate. And that was while they were being hit by their hormones telling the cervix to dilate AND pitocin.

Not to mention the poor women that after 12 hours or even longer if the waters havent broken, that the cervix never dilates and the woman ends up going through all that incredible pain and then needing a C-section anyway.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

odds are very good that no matter how sick, twisted, or fucked up your kink is, someone has probably already made a website for it.

The quantum law of the internet. Truly a double-edged sword.

 

[Homburg]

Not to mention the poor women that after 12 hours or even longer if the waters havent broken, that the cervix never dilates and the woman ends up going through all that incredible pain and then needing a C-section anyway.

Yup, like viv and our first child.

-----

The quantum law of the internet. Truly a double-edged sword.

Ain't it the truth.

 

[marieR19]

I've read this thread from the beginning, and I'm not even sure I really want to respond, 'cause it makes me mad just reading it, but here you go:

YC, you seem very focused on doing this NO MATTER WHAT anyone says, including medical professionals. You say this is not a test of submission but a bonding thing... How, in your mind, is it "bonding" to irreversibly damage another human being? HOW is that bonding?

I agree with Homburg, somewhere out there is probably others with this same fantasy. You know what? It is NOT going to happen in a bdsm-capacity. Bdsm is Safe, Sane, Consentual, correct? It has already been PROVEN, not assumed but PROVEN, that this is not a safe thing to do. Consentual, yeah I'm sure somewhere out there you could find someone willing to do this for you, but it sure as hell won't be considered consentual because it won't be considered sane.... Anyone who would be willing to let someone damage their body (and possible KILL them from infections) would be labeled borderline-suicidal by any doctor worth his salt, which negates the consentual/sane part of it.

Does this stuff not register in your mind? Seriously, so many people here have given HARD FACTS about this, and you come back basically saying "but I want to and you are all just assuming". WTF?


Heather

 

[YourCaptor]

Which two orifices? I'm still confused by that. A woman has the opening to the vaginal cavity, then the cervical os or opening then has two openings at the top of the uterus, one for each fallopian tube. So I'm not exactly sure which two orifices you're thinking of

There is an internal and an external os.

The external one is on the vaginal side of the cervix, and the internal one is on the uterine side of the cervix. So the cervix is sort of a tube that gets pinched off on both ends. Each on can usually dilates independently from the other. For example during menstruation the internal os will dilate, while sex will cause the external os to dilate.

There are many ways to cause dilation, and of course we all know that under the right circumstances (birth) the cervix is capable of dilating extensively for long periods of time. The internal orifice will usually be dilated before the external one, so during birth it is most often the external one that is a concern. After birth in must women the cervix will contract again almost to its original state, the orifices will usually be slightly larger, but compared to how much they dilated it really is a minuscule change.

Hence cervical penetration is certainly possible, requiring only a fraction of what the cervix is otherwise capable of, problem is, how do you do it without pregnancy.

 

[Safra]

There is an internal and an external os.

The external one is on the vaginal side of the cervix, and the internal one is on the uterine side of the cervix. So the cervix is sort of a tube that gets pinched off on both ends. Each on can usually dilates independently from the other. For example during menstruation the internal os will dilate, while sex will cause the external os to dilate.

There are many ways to cause dilation, and of course we all know that under the right circumstances (birth) the cervix is capable of dilating extensively for long periods of time. The internal orifice will usually be dilated before the external one, so during birth it is most often the external one that is a concern. After birth in must women the cervix will contract again almost to its original state, the orifices will usually be slightly larger, but compared to how much they dilated it really is a minuscule change.

Hence cervical penetration is certainly possible, requiring only a fraction of what the cervix is otherwise capable of, problem is, how do you do it without pregnancy.

YC, I tried hard to stay non-judgemental until now but YOU MAKE ME SICK...


I know this community dwells on and requires an open mind...
ok, folks, bash on me - I can't help...

Why the hell are we even discussing this! All of us except YC are of the same opinion - it's not safe...
So, don't we all here agree to SSC?

Let him alone - don't give him that much audience...

 

[satindesire]

YC, I tried hard to stay non-judgemental until now but YOU MAKE ME SICK...


I know this community dwells on and requires an open mind...
ok, folks, bash on me - I can't help...

Why the hell are we even discussing this! All of us except YC are of the same opinion - it's not safe...
So, don't we all here agree to SSC?

Let him alone - don't give him that much audience...

I agree, let's let this thread die.

 

[EmpressFi]

YC, I tried hard to stay non-judgemental until now but YOU MAKE ME SICK...


I know this community dwells on and requires an open mind...
ok, folks, bash on me - I can't help...

Why the hell are we even discussing this! All of us except YC are of the same opinion - it's not safe...
So, don't we all here agree to SSC?

Let him alone - don't give him that much audience...

You know I was just thinking that YC was being something akin to a troll. He asked for medical information and when given that information it is brushed off as assumptions. I've provided link after link of information yet it's ignored. I personally think he's just doing this out of a sick need for attention.

No matter what we say.. no matter what information we provide, links we provide, personal testimony we provide, it'll never be good enough for him, thus proving ..he's just an asshatted troll

 

[Safra]

You know I was just thinking that YC was being something akin to a troll. He asked for medical information and when given that information it is brushed off as assumptions. I've provided link after link of information yet it's ignored. I personally think he's just doing this out of a sick need for attention.

No matter what we say.. no matter what information we provide, links we provide, personal testimony we provide, it'll never be good enough for him, thus proving ..he's just an asshatted troll

Fi, that's what I tried to say - only not so determined and explicit because I don't feel as a regular and settled member here in the community...

 

[00Syd]

Hence cervical penetration is certainly possible, requiring only a fraction of what the cervix is otherwise capable of, problem is, how do you do it without pregnancy.

You don't. The cervix is never meant to dilate that much except during pregnancy. Why try and get it to do something that it is not meant, nor made, to do? If you seriously pursue this, you are only going to end up irreversibly harming some woman. Is that really worth a few moments of pleasure? Why don't you take a deep breath, relax, and move on?

 

[Pure]

comments on y c, netzach, homburg, safra

Netzach They also did trepanning over 100 years ago and people survived it some of the time - should you get out the cordless drill?

It's not rejection of your kink. Why is kink so sacred that it's horrible to say "this is best left a fantasy, it's a bad idea?"

Fuck, I thought M's hernia operation pics were kind of erotic, but the clear line that says "this is better off a fantasy" for me says that at home surgery would be a fucking bad idea. It's exciting to me to surgically alter a male - that's great. Any actual alteration is better done by a surgeon, it's called knowing the limits of your own expertise or lack thereof.


YC //I don’t see this act as proof of submission, I don’t ever seek proof of submission. If I felt that I had to test a girl to see if she truly was submissive then the relationship would already be over. Lack of trust, lack of communication, or just not a good match, whatever the reason for the failure may be.

This act, to me is like an embodiment of the D/s dynamic, a sort of union. Kind of like marriage except 10 times more powerful. To you it may look like nothing, but from where I am standing it’s everything. //

Homburg ////The second reason why this is not an assumption is because we're on the internet. One of the great truths of the internet is that it doesn't matter how sick, twisted, or fucked up your kink is, there will be someone out there on the internet willing to help you fullfill, and a third person that will pay to watch. It's just that simple. The corollary to this is that odds are very good that no matter how sick, twisted, or fucked up your kink is, someone has probably already made a website for it.

Can you find a website on cervical penetration? Information on how to do it? Information on body modification of the cervix? I doubt so, or you would have included it in this post, or referred to it. Does that mean that you are alone in your kink? Not bloody likely, statistically speaking. Occam's razor leads me to say that there ain't a whole lot of info out there on this because it is unworkable, not because you are so very unique in your kink.////

Originally Posted by Safra
///YC, I tried hard to stay non-judgemental until now but YOU MAKE ME SICK...///

===

i don't think one can condemn your captor for talking about an idea. as far as i see, he's not proposing to inflict it on someone or coerce them into it.

i think the conditions falls under extreme body modification, likely permanent. they are destructive or self destructive, but as homburg says, that does not preclude them from being talked about on the internet. heck, a fellow, Miewes, in germany arranged for his own castration and murder. consensually. in the eyes of the law, of course, you may NOT injure or kill someone, if asked: they cannot legally consent. hence the fellow's murderer has gone to prison.

there are a number of vague analogies, involving sterile areas; dilation of the male urethra to accomodate a finger; subincision of the male urethra, essentially destroying the ability to pee out the end, and except downward.; dilation of the female urethra to accomodate a cock for intercourse.

there are also equally severe of harmful acts, e.g. castrations by one's dom/me, or self castrations done for one's own reasons. i suppose too, a woman might seek a hysterectomy.

incidentally, as netzach stated these MIGHT be done safely, in a sense, i. e. without threatening the life, or causing an infection. that is NOT to say that the person isn't 'harmed', in some way. loss of the gonads, male or female , IS harmful to health, mental [depression] and physical.

all of this, though in a sense, possibly safe and consensual, is arguably not quite 'sane,' i.e healthy. but we already have a thread going on asexual service, and maybe that's not healthy either. so these acts are just 'beyond the fringes' even of the bdsm community.
but extreme body mod IS in the ball park of the psychology, or possibly psychopathology, of S and M.

as a matter of fact, i DON't think persons like your captor are the main issue, in terms of health of affected parties.

the most common issue, one can see all over the net, is from the BOTTOM or SUB side. this is the oddity for psychologists to evaluate: a man proposes to sacrifice a testicle, or a woman, a breast. possibly for their lover, owner, or (consensual) captor.

most every TOP or master will refuse, in fact, even to countenance, let alone ask for this. so we have to focus on the bottom, and to ask about this extreme masochistic desire. do we say, as safra suggests [for y c], 'you make me sick?' do we say "you are sick"?

yes, self mutilation is 'sick'; but any of us who've ever experienced the urge need to understand it. and judgements of others are not so relevant as their understanding and assistance.

i stated my conclusion some postings ago, leaving aside the extreme cases mentioned above: it's something for fantasy only; that's where it's best kept.

 

[Calabama]

I'm suddenly feeling rather vanilla.




And for once, I don't actually mind.

Pfffttttt.... a cock in my urethra..... yeah f*cking right.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Pfffttttt.... a cock in my urethra..... yeah f*cking right.

Ditto. A thousand times ditto.

 

[Safra]

Netzach They also did trepanning over 100 years ago and people survived it some of the time - should you get out the cordless drill?

It's not rejection of your kink. Why is kink so sacred that it's horrible to say "this is best left a fantasy, it's a bad idea?"

Fuck, I thought M's hernia operation pics were kind of erotic, but the clear line that says "this is better off a fantasy" for me says that at home surgery would be a fucking bad idea. It's exciting to me to surgically alter a male - that's great. Any actual alteration is better done by a surgeon, it's called knowing the limits of your own expertise or lack thereof.


YC //I don’t see this act as proof of submission, I don’t ever seek proof of submission. If I felt that I had to test a girl to see if she truly was submissive then the relationship would already be over. Lack of trust, lack of communication, or just not a good match, whatever the reason for the failure may be.

This act, to me is like an embodiment of the D/s dynamic, a sort of union. Kind of like marriage except 10 times more powerful. To you it may look like nothing, but from where I am standing it’s everything. //

Homburg ////The second reason why this is not an assumption is because we're on the internet. One of the great truths of the internet is that it doesn't matter how sick, twisted, or fucked up your kink is, there will be someone out there on the internet willing to help you fullfill, and a third person that will pay to watch. It's just that simple. The corollary to this is that odds are very good that no matter how sick, twisted, or fucked up your kink is, someone has probably already made a website for it.

Can you find a website on cervical penetration? Information on how to do it? Information on body modification of the cervix? I doubt so, or you would have included it in this post, or referred to it. Does that mean that you are alone in your kink? Not bloody likely, statistically speaking. Occam's razor leads me to say that there ain't a whole lot of info out there on this because it is unworkable, not because you are so very unique in your kink.////

Originally Posted by Safra
///YC, I tried hard to stay non-judgemental until now but YOU MAKE ME SICK...///

===

i don't think one can condemn your captor for talking about an idea. as far as i see, he's not proposing to inflict it on someone or coerce them into it.

i think the conditions falls under extreme body modification, likely permanent. they are destructive or self destructive, but as homburg says, that does not preclude them from being talked about on the internet. heck, a fellow, Miewes, in germany arranged for his own castration and murder. consensually. in the eyes of the law, of course, you may NOT injure or kill someone, if asked: they cannot legally consent. hence the fellow's murderer has gone to prison.

there are a number of vague analogies, involving sterile areas; dilation of the male urethra to accomodate a finger; subincision of the male urethra, essentially destroying the ability to pee out the end, and except downward.; dilation of the female urethra to accomodate a cock for intercourse.

there are also equally severe of harmful acts, e.g. castrations by one's dom/me, or self castrations done for one's own reasons. i suppose too, a woman might seek a hysterectomy.

incidentally, as netzach stated these MIGHT be done safely, in a sense, i. e. without threatening the life, or causing an infection. that is NOT to say that the person isn't 'harmed', in some way. loss of the gonads, male or female , IS harmful to health, mental [depression] and physical.

all of this, though in a sense, possibly safe and consensual, is arguably not quite 'sane,' i.e healthy. but we already have a thread going on asexual service, and maybe that's not healthy either. so these acts are just 'beyond the fringes' even of the bdsm community.
but extreme body mod IS in the ball park of the psychology, or possibly psychopathology, of S and M.

as a matter of fact, i DON't think persons like your captor are the main issue, in terms of health of affected parties.

the most common issue, one can see all over the net, is from the BOTTOM or SUB side. this is the oddity for psychologists to evaluate: a man proposes to sacrifice a testicle, or a woman, a breast. possibly for their lover, owner, or (consensual) captor.

most every TOP or master will refuse, in fact, even to countenance, let alone ask for this. so we have to focus on the bottom, and to ask about this extreme masochistic desire. do we say, as safra suggests [for y c], 'you make me sick?' do we say "you are sick"?

yes, self mutilation is 'sick'; but any of us who've ever experienced the urge need to understand it. and judgements of others are not so relevant as their understanding and assistance.

i stated my conclusion some postings ago, leaving aside the extreme cases mentioned above: it's something for fantasy only; that's where it's best kept.

Pure, I said, YC, or better this thread makes ME sick... didn't say he is...

And, yes, I mentioned the German cannibal and his willing victim also in my first post... And for me, sorry, such an degree of longing for self-mutilation IS sick... At least not at all sane... And someone like YC will happily take what is offered because he WANTS it... For me, without sanity it's also not consensual...

And - a person who has a sadistic fantasy and is willing to act on it with a willing person, "sick" like that, to me is close to be a criminal...

This all has me once again pondering how any of us, who are not shrinks or so, is able to decide who is sane and who not... and how one avoids the natural bias because we WANT something....

*shrugs*
Of course you could say I'm too new to this lifestyle...
I don't think I will change my opinion...

 

[Pure]

safra

And for me, sorry, such an degree of longing for self-mutilation IS sick... At least not at all sane...

i agreed with this, above. psychological health is a big consideration for any so called 'life style' or any life choices.

==

PS. Just to be clear, I do NOT approve of anyone encouraging or condoning their partner's self mutilation. NO top, especially a male top with a female bottom, should suggest or be involved in this. Indeed their duty as a human, not to say a friend/lover is to discourage it.

 

[YourCaptor]

-sigh-

This thing has descended too far south.

I don’t want to do the whole drama thing, so I’ll just fold my hand here, take this thing to different circles.

Thank you to all who contributed. This thread has been helpful; I now know the primary cause of most of the risks involved, so there is direction for reducing those risks to an acceptable level.

 

[EmpressFi]

-sigh-

This thing has descended too far south.

I don’t want to do the whole drama thing, so I’ll just fold my hand here, take this thing to different circles.

Thank you to all who contributed. This thread has been helpful; I now know the primary cause of most of the risks involved, so there is direction for reducing those risks to an acceptable level.

what is an acceptable level.. YOU dont have any risk at all. There isnt an acceptable level of risk for sepsis, hysterectomy, uterine prolapse, or death. Just make sure you get a girl who isnt dependent upon her uterus for an orgasm, would be a shame if your little escapade into satisfying what is an acceptable risk... caused her to no longer be able to reach orgasm. Oh.. and make sure they leave her ovaries or at least do hormone therapy because you wouldnt want to put her at higher risk for breast cancer.

 

[baristagirl]

My first thought was... her crazy long acrylic finger nail!? Gah! Everything cervix related for me has resulted in a decent amount of pain (even OB/GYN paps). I couldn't imagine that... a cervix not dilating for typical reasons has such a small opening! I mean, small so much to where the mucus plug that is generally present changes to a more watery substance to allow and sort of guide sperm in during ovulation and sexual arousal... eesh!

Anyway, sorry that I don't have any information for you. Thanks for the informative video!

 

[Netzach]

-sigh-

This thing has descended too far south.

I don’t want to do the whole drama thing, so I’ll just fold my hand here, take this thing to different circles.

Thank you to all who contributed. This thread has been helpful; I now know the primary cause of most of the risks involved, so there is direction for reducing those risks to an acceptable level.

There are still thousands of malpractice suits every day filed because people with 8+ years of training think they know what they're doing.

The saving grace is I don't think it will be easy to find a woman with this many self-destructive impulses piled together.

In lieu of a cervix, though, perhaps you could prolapse your rectum and practice on that. While it's not a 1:1 relation, as I pointed out earlier, when you get that stuff to protrude the other way and then play with it, I think you can practice by staving off death by peritonitis on yourself. That should prepare you for risk management.

 

[Pure]

nearing finality?

Originally Posted by VelvetDarkness
I will never completely understand the male fascination with pushing the female form to every physical limit they can think of like their life partner is a labrat or something. WHY do you even want to do this?

Why?
YC I didn’t think I would have to explain myself in this place.
Theirs just something so intriguing about it, its intoxicating. I can’t explain it, its not rational, is any kink ever rational? I suppose much of the appeal is in the amount of surrender it requires. Its far more then just a simple hormone driven lust… although I think that is still an element.
----

there have been lots of comments on the dangers, so i pass on that topic. and above i've talked about my interest in wouldbe or real bottoms and masos--not unlike myself-- who've at least flirted with self mutilation ideas. it's simplistic, of course, but the general theme, from a psychological pov, is self destruction. perhaps this is at times rational and sane, e.g. when you have a terminal disease, but generally it's pathological.

turning to y c's dream or project, which is, of course linked with fantasy, if not resulting from it....

i'm reminded of what's termed "the fallacy of misplaced concreteness" and a whole lot of other related fallacies or mistakes to do with abstraction or metaphor. the entire 'depth psychology' is based on the metaphor of 'deeper' as more profound or fundamental. the idea is that in understanding someone you are like an archaeologist excavating a new building built on the ruins of the old.

the interest in 'plumbing natures mysteries' is centuries old, going back to Bacon. and many commentators have made the analogy of scientific enterprise and penetration or rape; nature's veils are pulled aside.

a central male porn obsession is a kind of penetration by 'bringing to light'; the open pussy-- a non normal occurrence outside of sexual arousal, childbirth, etc.--being the object of a million photos since the revolution in north american porn. discreet playboy allowed the female pussy to be shown real; penthouse and a thousand other purveyors realized the market for the open. open pussy: available, desirous.

with the internet all things are possible and photographic so there are the speculum sites, where the normally closed canal is stretched open. deeper into the woman. [ass: once the vagina is open, the next frontier emerges, the cervix and womb; then, i suppose, on to the tubes!]

at this point the fallacy should be obvious. do you get "deeper" into a woman with a speculum.? concretely, yes. obgyn drs. do. but the fallacy is pretty apparent: to get deeper into someone is not a matter of claiming more inches of some canal or tube; the legendary 'deep throat' is not deeper knowledge. it's worth stating that the fallacy might be embraced by a woman, as well, as in the question "how do i deep throat my b.f.?" when she herself believes it's giving more.

mr y c considers--possibly wants to--and is attracted to opening the cervix and entering. he says he views the woman's opening herself in that way as a deeper surrender. it's clearly a fallacy. if, beyond her vagina, i get into her an extra inch deeper, am i more "into" her? has she given me more access *to herself*? no.

some gay persons have wanted penetration not just by fist, but up the forearm. same analysis applies. is one deeper into one's love if one's up to one's forearm, i. e. a foot in, instead of the usual 6 ins. in rectal penetration.?

how do you "enter" someone? how does someone "open up" or surrender? sexual mechanics are fine natural metaphors. they have deep validity *to a point.* a woman's surrender might be indicated by her making her pussy available to penetrate. but everyday life furnish thousands of counter instances. every whore offers her pussy, without offering herself in the least. every john who "takes" that pussy, "takes" nothing but the four inch tract of her; his *fantasy* whispers he's possessed her.

the 'surrender' fantasy, as related to cervical penetration, is of a similar nature, though involved in self mutilation, if practiced as real. the danger, sensed or pointed out by the women of the thread is that a woman herself may commit the error. open and damage her cervix as a misplaced devotion or surrender.

so the reality is that if the seeker of cervical penetration found such a willing participant, the interaction might feed his fantasy and hers, yet the "extreme surrender" has no objective reality. he's an inch deeper true, but in another sense, no-wise closer to her; nor in any greater degree does he dominate her or she submit. "deeper surrender" just like "deeper understanding" is to be pursued on another plane.

 

[Safra]

-sigh-

This thing has descended too far south.

I don’t want to do the whole drama thing, so I’ll just fold my hand here, take this thing to different circles.

Thank you to all who contributed. This thread has been helpful; I now know the primary cause of most of the risks involved, so there is direction for reducing those risks to an acceptable level.

Yeah, the primary cause of most of the risks is you....

And the best way to reduce those risks to an acceptable level is throwing you out...

 

[Safra]

Originally Posted by VelvetDarkness
I will never completely understand the male fascination with pushing the female form to every physical limit they can think of like their life partner is a labrat or something. WHY do you even want to do this?

Why?
YC I didn’t think I would have to explain myself in this place.
Theirs just something so intriguing about it, its intoxicating. I can’t explain it, its not rational, is any kink ever rational? I suppose much of the appeal is in the amount of surrender it requires. Its far more then just a simple hormone driven lust… although I think that is still an element.
----

there have been lots of comments on the dangers, so i pass on that topic. and above i've talked about my interest in wouldbe or real bottoms and masos--not unlike myself-- who've at least flirted with self mutilation ideas. it's simplistic, of course, but the general theme, from a psychological pov, is self destruction. perhaps this is at times rational and sane, e.g. when you have a terminal disease, but generally it's pathological.

turning to y c's dream or project, which is, of course linked with fantasy, if not resulting from it....

i'm reminded of what's termed "the fallacy of misplaced concreteness" and a whole lot of other related fallacies or mistakes to do with abstraction or metaphor. the entire 'depth psychology' is based on the metaphor of 'deeper' as more profound or fundamental. the idea is that in understanding someone you are like an archaeologist excavating a new building built on the ruins of the old.

the interest in 'plumbing natures mysteries' is centuries old, going back to Bacon. and many commentators have made the analogy of scientific enterprise and penetration or rape; nature's veils are pulled aside.

a central male porn obsession is a kind of penetration by 'bringing to light'; the open pussy-- a non normal occurrence outside of sexual arousal, childbirth, etc.--being the object of a million photos since the revolution in north american porn. discreet playboy allowed the female pussy to be shown real; penthouse and a thousand other purveyors realized the market for the open. open pussy: available, desirous.

with the internet all things are possible and photographic so there are the speculum sites, where the normally closed canal is stretched open. deeper into the woman.

at this point the fallacy should be obvious. do you get "deeper" into a woman with a speculum.? concretely, yes. obgyn drs. do. but the fallacy is pretty apparent: to get deeper into someone is not a matter of claiming more inches of some canal or tube; the legendary 'deep throat' is not deeper knowledge. it's worth stating that the fallacy might be embraced by a woman, as well, as in the question "how do i deep throat my b.f.?" when she herself believes it's giving more.

mr y c considers--possibly wants to--and is attracted to opening the cervix and entering. he say views the woman's opening herself in that way as a deeper surrender. it's clearly a fallacy. if, beyond her vagina, i get into the extra inch deeper, am i more "into" her? has she given me more access *to herself*? no.

some gay persons have wanted penetration not just by fist, but up the forearm. same analysis applies. is one deeper into one's love if one's up to one's forearm, i. e. a foot in, instead of the usual 6 ins. in rectal penetration.?

how do you "enter" someone? how does someone "open up" or surrender? sexual mechanics are fine natural metaphors. they have deep validity *to a point.* a woman's surrender might be indicated by her making her pussy available to penetrate. but everyday life furnish thousands of counter instances. every whore offers her pussy, without offering herself in the least. every john who "takes" that pussy, "takes" nothing but the four inch tract of her; his *fantasy* whispers he's possessed her.

the 'surrender' fantasy, as related to cervical penetration, is of a similar nature, though involved in self mutilation, if practiced as real. the danger, sensed or pointed out by the women of the thread is that a woman herself may commit the error. open and damage her cervix as a misplaced devotion or surrender.

so the reality is that if the seeker of cervical penetration found such a willing participant, the interaction might feed his fantasy and hers, yet the "extreme surrender" has no objective reality. he's an inch deeper true, but in another sense, no-wise closer to her; nor in any greater degree does he dominate her or she submit. "deeper surrender" just like "deeper understanding" is to be pursued on another plane.

Thank you, Pure, for your ability to stay calm and reasonable!
I tend to get a bit too ballistic at times...
Yeah and - wise words!