Celibacy - joy or curse?

[amicus]

Native American Cannibalism

http://www.nativeamericans.com/Iroquois.htm

"When the prophet Deganawidah and his disciple Hiawatha founded (c.1570) the confederacy (to eliminate incessant intertribal warfare and to end cannibalism), this dwelling became the symbol of the Five Nations." Copied and Pasted from the above URL) There were 11,800 sites turned up in the search. Get your own box.

As usual some of the lackluster left distort the words of others.

I had mentioned, in passing, that cannibalism was evident in some prehistorical tribes of Native Americans. It was part of the discovery process on the road to trying to understand why the first inhabitants of North America had what Paleontologists called, a 'stagnant culture' for more than 5000 years.

I still have not drawn a conclusion concerning the reason for that stunted societal growth.



Assuming there are a few rational souls who read but do not post; the concept of celibacy and abstinence goes far back in human history. The reasons for those vows of celibacy were not mine, I did not create them, only paraphrased the writing of others as a curiosity.

Freud and others identified the libido as the most powerful innate drive of the species. Dealing with that drive has been a societal, philosophical and psychological pursuit for 'rational' men for eons.

The continued irrational, emotional, subjective and personal attacks do more to expose the wrath and ignorance of detractors than it does to demean those who speak with reason.

In the event your vocabulary in insufficient; you have just been insulted.

amicus veritas

 

[Randi Grail]

Oh, my vocabulary is sufficient enough to follow you, worry not. And it tkes a helluva lot to insult me.

But obviously your vocabulary is not enough to comprehand my post, as you just did everything but answer the question I asked.

I did not question the concept of celibacy, or the power of the libido. Maybe my preference to use a less high-brow language to express myself confuses you?

I merely objected to you describing the tempted as specifically male and the tempter as specifically female, and that there was something in the "female psyche" (if that is your definition or something paraphrased doesn't matter, you obviosly agree with it, or you wouldn't had used it) that impairs logic and reasonnable thinking.

Which is, to use academic terms, utter bollocks.

 

[cloudy]

My apologies to steve w for this hijacking...

http://www.nativeamericans.com/Iroquois.htm

"When the prophet Deganawidah and his disciple Hiawatha founded (c.1570) the confederacy (to eliminate incessant intertribal warfare and to end cannibalism), this dwelling became the symbol of the Five Nations." Copied and Pasted from the above URL) There were 11,800 sites turned up in the search. Get your own box.

As usual some of the lackluster left distort the words of others.

I had mentioned, in passing, that cannibalism was evident in some prehistorical tribes of Native Americans. It was part of the discovery process on the road to trying to understand why the first inhabitants of North America had what Paleontologists called, a 'stagnant culture' for more than 5000 years.

I still have not drawn a conclusion concerning the reason for that stunted societal growth.

amicus veritas

Don't be patronizing - it just makes you look like an ass. And please - I've been called both "lackluster left" now along with "neocon" - I wish people would realize I'm neither - I am me, and labels are offensive.

Your posts might be taken a little more seriously both by those that lurk and don't respond, and those that do, if they weren't so full of bigotry. I can't decide whether you actually believe the trash you post, or if you just get some sort of weird rush by provoking people.

Cannibalism did exist, however, you don't mention how it existed. For example, in many societies it was a way of honoring the dead, in accordance with spiritual beliefs. In others, it was a way of honoring those that had fallen against you in battle - taking their strength in to yourself. It was ritualistic. Please don't try to pass it off as just "what's for dinner." The thing that frightens me about you is that as far as Natives have come, all it takes is a few to believe you and we're back to "the only good injun is a dead injun."

I've never seen your proof of what you termed our "intellectual inferiority." Your comments about our lack of culture are ridiculous.

When will you realize that there is more to being human than just being white, and male? I, for one, am very damn proud of who I am, regardless of the minority, like yourself, who seem to think I ought to be ashamed of it.

From the same website you quoted above:

It was the Europeans' cultural arrogance, coupled with their materialistic view of the land and its animal and plant beings, that the Indians found repellent. Europeans, in sum, were regarded as something mechanical - soulless creatures who wielded diabolically ingenious tools and weapons to accomplish mad ends.

The Europeans brought with them not only a desire and will to conquer the new continent for all its material richness, but they also brought with them diseases that hit the Indians hard. Conflicts developed between the Native Americans and the Invaders, the latter arriving in overwhelming numbers, as many "as the stars in heaven". The Europeans were accustomed to own land and laid claim to it while they considered the Indians to be nomads with no interest to claim land ownership. The conflicts led to the Indian Wars, the Indian Removal Act empowered by president Andrew Jackson in 1830 and other acts instituted by the Europeans in order to accomplish their objectives, as they viewed them at the time. In these wars the Indian tribes were at a great disadvantage because of their modest numbers, nomadic life, lack of advanced weapons, and unwillingness to cooperate, even in their own defense.

The end of the wars more or less coincided with the end of the 19th century. The last major war was not really a war, it was a massacre in 1890 where Indian warriors, women, and children were slaughtered by U.S. cavalrymen at Wounded Knee, South Dakota, in a final spasm of ferocity.

A stupefying record of greed and treachery, of heroism and pain, had come to an end, a record forever staining the immense history of the westward movement, which in its drama and tragedy is also distinctively and unforgettably American.

Unfortunately, amicus, I see the same arrogance described above in your posts. How sad.

 

[matriarch]

Re: My apologies to steve w for this hijacking...

Don't be patronizing - it just makes you look like an ass. And please - I've been called both "lackluster left" now along with "neocon" - I wish people would realize I'm neither - I am me, and labels are offensive.

Your posts might be taken a little more seriously both by those that lurk and don't respond, and those that do, if they weren't so full of bigotry. I can't decide whether you actually believe the trash you post, or if you just get some sort of weird rush by provoking people.

Cannibalism did exist, however, you don't mention how it existed. For example, in many societies it was a way of honoring the dead, in accordance with spiritual beliefs. In others, it was a way of honoring those that had fallen against you in battle - taking their strength in to yourself. It was ritualistic. Please don't try to pass it off as just "what's for dinner." The thing that frightens me about you is that as far as Natives have come, all it takes is a few to believe you and we're back to "the only good injun is a dead injun."

I've never seen your proof of what you termed our "intellectual inferiority." Your comments about our lack of culture are ridiculous.

When will you realize that there is more to being human than just being white, and male? I, for one, am very damn proud of who I am, regardless of the minority, like yourself, who seem to think I ought to be ashamed of it.

From the same website you quoted above:

It was the Europeans' cultural arrogance, coupled with their materialistic view of the land and its animal and plant beings, that the Indians found repellent. Europeans, in sum, were regarded as something mechanical - soulless creatures who wielded diabolically ingenious tools and weapons to accomplish mad ends.

The Europeans brought with them not only a desire and will to conquer the new continent for all its material richness, but they also brought with them diseases that hit the Indians hard. Conflicts developed between the Native Americans and the Invaders, the latter arriving in overwhelming numbers, as many "as the stars in heaven". The Europeans were accustomed to own land and laid claim to it while they considered the Indians to be nomads with no interest to claim land ownership. The conflicts led to the Indian Wars, the Indian Removal Act empowered by president Andrew Jackson in 1830 and other acts instituted by the Europeans in order to accomplish their objectives, as they viewed them at the time. In these wars the Indian tribes were at a great disadvantage because of their modest numbers, nomadic life, lack of advanced weapons, and unwillingness to cooperate, even in their own defense.

The end of the wars more or less coincided with the end of the 19th century. The last major war was not really a war, it was a massacre in 1890 where Indian warriors, women, and children were slaughtered by U.S. cavalrymen at Wounded Knee, South Dakota, in a final spasm of ferocity.

A stupefying record of greed and treachery, of heroism and pain, had come to an end, a record forever staining the immense history of the westward movement, which in its drama and tragedy is also distinctively and unforgettably American.

Unfortunately, amicus, I see the same arrogance described above in your posts. How sad.

*standing from my chair, applauding your eloquence and your passion.*.
Bravo sweet and honourable, Cloudy. Bravo.
*blowing you a kiss*

Matriarch

 

[cloudy]

Re: Re: My apologies to steve w for this hijacking...

*standing from my chair, applauding your eloquence and your passion.*.
Bravo sweet and honourable, Cloudy. Bravo.
*blowing you a kiss*

Matriarch

 

[steve w]

I'd refer everyone to the start of this thread which gave my (admittedly subjective) definition of celibacy, for the purposes of the thread. It may not be in the dictionary, but it was in my head when I started.....

My point in starting the thread (if indeed I actually had one) was that I believe celibacy has pluses and minuses. Personally, I can actually go without sex for what others might consider a ludicrously long time. That isn't because I'm deliberately denying myself but because, like I think Liar said, I want sex as part of something bigger, which is more difficult to find and sustain. For those of you in relationships, or happy to have sex under different circumstances, I applaud you and wish you all the fun in the world.

However, I have noticed that some people few those without a sexual relationship as something to be pitied, and I'm not sure that's always appropriate. Freedom from trying to find or sustain a sexual relationship (or a number of sexual encounters), does give you the time and space to do other things, think other thoughts, and explore other avenues. It doesn't make you asexual, a monk/nun, or socially maladjusted.

Like any situation in life, I guess the glass can be half-empty or half-full and it's down to your attitude, and the degree to which you choose to take control of your own life.

Oh, and amicus, you are in fact full of shit on this occasion.

 

[rgraham666]

Cloudy? Well done showing what a blinkered mind amicus has. If what he has can be ccan be considered a mind.

Steve w? Amicus has shit for every occasion.

 

[matriarch]

"If music be the food of love, play on, give me excess of it........"

.............. It's a great spice in life, but there are many other spices that I appriciate just as much. ..or more. Not that I don't love it, but I would for instance give up sex before I gave up music.

Phew! And there was me thinking I was the odd one out here. Thank you Randi. I couldn't agree more. Not that the two are mutually exclusive. Music and sex is a great combination. With the right music and, of course, the right person.

And right now, as its my bed time and want calming, rather than stimulating, I'm off to bed with Katie Melua and Norah Jones singing me to sleep. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm

M

------------------------------------------------------------

"....and then the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom."
Anais Nin

 

[Boxlicker101]

I'd refer everyone to the start of this thread which gave my (admittedly subjective) definition of celibacy, for the purposes of the thread. It may not be in the dictionary, but it was in my head when I started.....

My point in starting the thread (if indeed I actually had one) was that I believe celibacy has pluses and minuses. Personally, I can actually go without sex for what others might consider a ludicrously long time. That isn't because I'm deliberately denying myself but because, like I think Liar said, I want sex as part of something bigger, which is more difficult to find and sustain. For those of you in relationships, or happy to have sex under different circumstances, I applaud you and wish you all the fun in the world.

Hopefully, the thread has now been un-hijacked. Personally, I can see no pluses in periods of involuntary celibacy. I have been through them and I saw no pluses at the time, except, I suppose, less chance of VD, later AIDS also, when I wasn't getting any. I have never voluntarily undergone a period of celibacy but I suppose that if people have chosen to do so, there must have been some pluses, or they wouldn't have done it.

I must agree that sex is best as a part of a larger relationship but a quickie in the back seat is still pretty good, certainly better than nothing, even if I never even learn her name or ever see her again.

 

[Randi Grail]

Hopefully, the thread has now been un-hijacked. Personally, I can see no pluses in periods of involuntary celibacy. I have been through them and I saw no pluses at the time, except, I suppose, less chance of VD, later AIDS also, when I wasn't getting any. I have never voluntarily undergone a period of celibacy but I suppose that if people have chosen to do so, there must have been some pluses, or they wouldn't have done it.

I don't think it has to nessecarily be a voluntary period of celibacy, as in "Right, now I'm not gonna stick this thing into anything for X number of months."

A common kind of celibacy would be just not bothering to look for sex/partners for a while after a relationship has ended.

 

[Randi Grail]

Re: "If music be the food of love, play on, give me excess of it........"

Phew! And there was me thinking I was the odd one out here. Thank you Randi. I couldn't agree more. Not that the two are mutually exclusive. Music and sex is a great combination. With the right music and, of course, the right person.

And right now, as its my bed time and want calming, rather than stimulating, I'm off to bed with Katie Melua and Norah Jones singing me to sleep. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm

Norah Jones can stimulare the bejesus out of me.