Bush and Kerry on the Actual Issues

[Dixon Carter Lee]

i try to never get into any type of mudslinging contests............all i will say on the bush versus kerry election is that i have studied each of their records and can say that i am still a bush supporter

That's what we're discussing. Please feel free to tell us what you've studied and how you arrived at your conclusions. The only mudslinger here is being ignored. Welcome. Have a cookie. Scylis! Get him a beach chair. Aisle six.

 

[Weevil]

Energy and environment
Bush: Bush, who pulled the United States out of the Kyoto protocol on greenhouse gas emissions, believes the threat of global warming should be addressed through new economic growth and efficiency. He also favors oil exploration in Alaska’s Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and backs legislation that would seek to reduce air pollution and acid rain by offering major polluters access to market-based incentives to reduce harmful emissions.

If I have to talk about the actual issues, I guess I'll stick to the ones I know about. First off, wouldn't acknowledging that there is a threat posed by global warming be a policy shift for this administration? Bush might desire market based incentives to curb the emission of greenhouse gases but is he actually, anywhere, saying that global warming is real and needs to be addressed? This isn't smart assed, I just am genuinely confused.

Anyways, I know a little bit about market based incentives as a means to reduce polution and everything I saw during my time involved with them showed them to be a fine idea in theory but useless in practice. The government can't make it cheaper for companies not to pollute.

Kerry: Kerry favors U.S. participation in an international climate change program to curb global warming and would cut mercury emissions by American utilities and plants. automobiles.

Also, I can assume that Kerry doesn't support Kyoto based on the Senate vote but does anyone know A) What he does support or B) What his personal problems with Kyoto were?

 

[busybody..]

Hey WEEVILHOLE

Did Dick-tay-tor DIXIE

Let you go to the bathroom yet?

Enjoy taking orders?

Must do well at Burger King!

 

[busybody..]

Re: Re: Bush and Kerry on the Actual Issues

If I have to talk about the actual issues, I guess I'll stick to the ones I know about. First off, wouldn't acknowledging that there is a threat posed by global warming be a policy shift for this administration? Bush might desire market based incentives to curb the emission of greenhouse gases but is he actually, anywhere, saying that global warming is real and needs to be addressed? This isn't smart assed, I just am genuinely confused.

Anyways, I know a little bit about market based incentives as a means to reduce polution and everything I saw during my time involved with them showed them to be a fine idea in theory but useless in practice. The government can't make it cheaper for companies not to pollute.



Also, I can assume that Kerry doesn't support Kyoto based on the Senate vote but does anyone know A) What he does support or B) What his personal problems with Kyoto were?

Global Warming is a Gore myth, total BS!

 

[busybody..]

cant he tell the truth about anything?

he sure loves to pander to the COLOREDS and they are so DUMB/STUPID they dont even realize how they are being played.


Another Seared--Seared--Memory
From a John Kerry speech commemorating Martin Luther King Day, Jan. 20, 2003:

I remember well April 1968--I was serving in Vietnam--a place of violence--when the news reports brought home to me and my crewmates the violence back home--and the tragic news that one of the bullets flying that terrible spring took the life of that unabashedly maladjusted citizen.

In fact, Kerry did not go to Vietnam until November 1968

 

[busybody..]

What a FUCKING JOKE thsi guy is....


A One-Sentence Flip-Flop

"The truth, which is what elections are all about, is that the tax burden of the middle class has gone up while the tax burden of the middle class has gone down."--John Kerry, quoted by the Associated Press, Aug. 25

 

[ruminator]

I'd love to turn Bush's Hawkish bluster productive, but they're following a One World Order game plan layed out years ago in a Defense Report prepared by the Project for a New American Century. ("Rebuilding America's Defenses", written in 2000. Read it here..

Well, that's a bit simplistic. Bush doesn't agree with everything they propose, particularly since the report was written before 9/11 -- but the ideology is solidly Bush.

I don't think Kerry has any intention of relying only on diplomacy. He supports his decision to vote to give Bush power to use force (AFTER trying inspections and engaging the United Nations). I'm sure that when push comes to shove Kerry, as President of the United States of America, will be appropriately kick-ass.

They were pursuing the new world order but bringing it into the light of day changed things. That and a total train wreck they made out of Iraq. They were overconfident in their misassumptions and it's the cause of needless death and suffering.

Had Iraq gone better and more attuned to their original plan, we would be in worse shape.

GWB is not a neocon, but imo, a born again zealot convinced he has been chosen to pursue a divine mission. Not quite as bad as a neocon, but close.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Re: Re: Bush and Kerry on the Actual Issues

Kerry DOES support Kyoto. That's what I disagree with. Not because global warming isn't real and something doesn't need to be done about it, but the accords weren't fair. Voting "no" for badly written legislation doesn't mean the issue isn't worthy.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

They were pursuing the new world order but bringing it into the light of day changed things. That and a total train wreck they made out of Iraq. They were overconfident in their misassumptions and it's the cause of needless death and suffering.

Had Iraq gone better and more attuned to their original plan, we would be in worse shape.

GWB is not a neocon, but imo, a born again zealot convinced he has been chosen to pursue a divine mission. Not quite as bad as a neocon, but close.

They weren't afraid of the light of day. They published their ideas on the net and encouraged the world to read them. i agree that their game plan has had to be revised, but the timetable.

You're right about Bush, but he's surrounded himself with the neocon Vulcans, and Bush does like to delegate. He governs like a CEO, happy to let his VPs run the show and bother him only when the pretty PowerPoint reports are ready.

(To clean Busybody's posts off this thread click the "Ignore" button under any of his posts)

 

[busybody..]

Re: Re: Re: Bush and Kerry on the Actual Issues

Kerry DOES support Kyoto. That's what I disagree with. Not because global warming isn't real and something doesn't need to be done about it, but the accords weren't fair. Voting "no" for badly written legislation doesn't mean the issue isn't worthy.

He supports Kyoto but doesnt support the treaty

sorta like


A One-Sentence Flip-Flop
"The truth, which is what elections are all about, is that the tax burden of the middle class has gone up while the tax burden of the middle class has gone down."--John Kerry, quoted by the Associated Press, Aug. 25



and

"I voted FOR it before I voted AGAINST it"

You cant make this shit up

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

If I have to talk about the actual issues, I guess I'll stick to the ones I know about. First off, wouldn't acknowledging that there is a threat posed by global warming be a policy shift for this administration?

I can't believe they don't understand the threat, but it's very Republican to not say "Cancer" out loud, if you know what I mean. Look how long it took Reagan to say "AIDS".

 

[Weevil]

Re: Re: Re: Bush and Kerry on the Actual Issues

Kerry DOES support Kyoto. That's what I disagree with. Not because global warming isn't real and something doesn't need to be done about it, but the accords weren't fair. Voting "no" for badly written legislation doesn't mean the issue isn't worthy.

Sorry, but voting against Kyoto means he didn't support Kyoto. He might be in favour of some measure of international emmission control but it would certainly be a horse of a different colour.

And, to that point, I'm wondering what his problems with Kyoto were and what his plan is to fix them.

 

[busybody..]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush and Kerry on the Actual Issues

Sorry, but voting against Kyoto means he didn't support Kyoto. He might be in favour of some measure of international emmission control but it would certainly be a horse of a different colour.

And, to that point, I'm wondering what his problems with Kyoto were and what his plan is to fix them.

He supports Kyoto but doesnt support the treaty

sorta like


A One-Sentence Flip-Flop
"The truth, which is what elections are all about, is that the tax burden of the middle class has gone up while the tax burden of the middle class has gone down."--John Kerry, quoted by the Associated Press, Aug. 25



and

"I voted FOR it before I voted AGAINST it"

You cant make this shit up


__________________

 

[Weevil]

I can't believe they don't understand the threat, but it's very Republican to not say "Cancer" out loud, if you know what I mean. Look how long it took Reagan to say "AIDS".

But it's hard for me to reconcile them knowing there is a threat posed with their policy on things like the Fuel Economy for SUV's thing, overdependance on fossil fuels and, well, fighting wars to get their hands on another country's oil.

And as such, and you forced to come to the conclusion that they either don't know about the threat or don't care about it?

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

GWB is not a neocon, but imo, a born again zealot convinced he has been chosen to pursue a divine mission.

I've said this too, but you know what? I find it hard to believe. Bush isn't an idiot. Not really. I just can't believe a grown man, elected (!) President of the U.S., actually believes Revelations is a Playbook.

It's like when we all found out Reagan regularly consulted an Astrologer. Jesus fucking Christ.

 

[ruminator]

They weren't afraid of the light of day. They pulbished their ideas on the net and encouraged the world to read them.

You're right about Bush, but he's surrounded himself with the neocon Vulcans, and Bush does like to delegate. He governs like a CEO, happy to let his VPs run the show and bother him only when the pretty PowerPoint reports are ready.

No, they were never attempting to hide their ideology. I'm talking about the general public being aware of the implications of their policy.

I was attempting to have open discussions about PNAC before the Iraq war and from the time I came here last August. The subject couldn't even be approached without condescending dismissal of 'conspiracy theory'. The mainstream media is just now beginning to bring the subject out more.

I agree with your assessment of the neocon vulcans but with one subtle difference.

Dick Cheney was asked to conduct a search for the most suitable VP candidate to put on the ticket with George. Guess who he picked?

The changes in GWB from 2000 to now are incredible when you look back at video from that time period. He was sooooo naive, uneducated in world affairs and 'alarmingly incurious'. He still is most of those but now it's with a misplaced arrogant confidence.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Sorry, but voting against Kyoto means he didn't support Kyoto. He might be in favour of some measure of international emmission control but it would certainly be a horse of a different colour.

And, to that point, I'm wondering what his problems with Kyoto were and what his plan is to fix them.

I think we're confusing each other. I didn't say Kerry voted against Kyoto. I think he supports it. I'm saying I disagree with his support.

 

[busybody..]

http://www.jessicaswell.com/images/kerry-bob.jpghttp://www.jessicaswell.com/images/kerry-bob.jpg

 

[Weevil]

I think we're confusing each other. I didn't say Kerry voted against Kyoto. I think he supports it. I'm saying I disagree with his support.

Oh sorry, it's just that, well, I thought the Senate vote on Kyoto was something like 97-0 against.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

But it's hard for me to reconcile them knowing there is a threat posed with their policy on things like the Fuel Economy for SUV's thing, overdependance on fossil fuels and, well, fighting wars to get their hands on another country's oil.

And as such, and you forced to come to the conclusion that they either don't know about the threat or don't care about it?

The latter. I think it's very short term thinking, and an oblivious attitude to the probelms of far away tomorrow. Obviously none of them saw "The Day After Tomorrow".

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I was attempting to have open discussions about PNAC before the Iraq war and from the time I came here last August. The subject couldn't even be approached without condescending dismissal of 'conspiracy theory'. The mainstream media is just now beginning to bring the subject out more.

I must have missed all that, sorry. I'm the only person I know who's actually read their 2000 defense report. (It's pretty fucking long.)

 

[busybody..]

John Kerry's own wartime journal is raising questions about whether he deserved the first of three Purple Hearts, which permitted him to go home after 4½ months of combat. . . .

Mr. Kerry has claimed that he faced his "first intense combat" that day, returned fire, and received his "first combat related injury."

A journal entry Mr. Kerry wrote Dec. 11, however, raises questions about what really happened nine days earlier.

"A cocky feeling of invincibility accompanied us up the Long Tau shipping channel because we hadn't been shot at yet, and Americans at war who haven't been shot at are allowed to be cocky," wrote Mr. Kerry, according the book "Tour of Duty" by friendly biographer Douglas Brinkley.

If enemy fire was not involved in that or any other incident, according to the Military Order of the Purple Heart, no medal should be awarded.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

No, they were never attempting to hide their ideology. I'm talking about the general public being aware of the implications of their policy.

I don't think anyone could be aware of that until well after some military action began.

Speaking of "the plans", Doonsebury was pretty funny this Sunday: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20040822

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2004/db040822.gif

 

[Weevil]

Doonesbury was even better on the fifteenth.

 

[ruminator]

I've said this too, but you know what? I find it hard to believe. Bush isn't an idiot. Not really. I just can't believe a grown man, elected (!) President of the U.S., actually believes Revelations is a Playbook.

It's like when we all found out Reagan regularly consulted an Astrologer. Jesus fucking Christ.

I firmly believe that we went into Iraq on a combination of otherwise differing factions that all shared an ultimate goal...power.

GWB is probably sincere in his claim to protect the people of the US at all cost. I think he sees himself as a shephard of sorts. Looking at his psychological profile, history and spirituality, combine with his quotes and he is a man on an ordained mission.

He has said that God has chosen him to be where he is, and looking at the 2000 election, people of similar faith feel the same way. Add to that a compliant media who stood to rake in a windfall on an unquestioned righteous war and the foundation to go there was built. The neocons had their sources and agenda to provide justification. Everyone at the low levels who had money in the markets were easier to persuade for support.

The protectors of Israel, some of which are powerful neocons, had a firm basis for the pre-emptive action. The Industrial/Military/Congressional complex owns the media and most everything anyway so their success was guarranteed.

Everyone had reasons not to try and stop it.

Do you remember the 24/7 cable news coverage that resembled an all night infomercial for military hardware?

Go back and look again at GWB's quotes and SOTU's to hear the evangelical message.

Find The 700 Club, CBN, PTL, and listen to the message of Robertson. Millions hang on his every word and take it as the message they are meant to hear.

I've lived with them. When it comes to the Bible people are either with them or against them. There is no middle.