Buffy: Countdown to the Apocalypse

[Blackbich]

*cough cough* Its a SHOW *cough cough*

Kidding, of course I just couldnt let ya get away without some sort of wise ass comment. I agree with you about Spike, that Buffy shouldnt forgive him, it was inexcusable, etc. But i honestly dont think he "knew" what he was doing at the time...i dunno, justme though. I mean, look at how he's beating himself up over it now? Who knows...well, Rasta and Joss, thats pretty much it.

.

Thank you so much for the wise-ass-ness. I know it might not technically be a word but so what?

I can see where Spike might not have been in his 'right' mind at the time...he was overcome with 'making' Buffy love him. She's the one who initiated things between them because she 'wanted to feel' and that's what he was going for. I get that. BUT I still understand her acting squirrely around him.

Not that being said...James Marsters is FINE AS HELL and he does the Billy Idol thing better then Billy does. I wouldn't kick him out of bed for leaving crumbs or anything else for that matter.

 

[Felicia4411]

I understand the way Buffy acts around Spike too. I can only imagine how horrible that would be and how hard it would be to not act differently around that person. I think it would've been stupid if Buffy weren't acting the way she does when she's around Spike. I wasn't trying to come off as seeming like I thought Buffy should forget about all that.

That's funny what you said about the Spike/Billy Idol thing, my friend and I were just talking along those lines the other night.

 

[cybergirly]

Ok I have to disagree...

I can see Buffys reaction to Spikes attempted rape if she were a "normal" character. But she's not. She's the slayer, and has proven time and time again that she's Spikes superior when it comes to strength and fighting skills. There's nooooo way he could have ever raped her, without some major changes in the characters strengths. I also don't see Spike believing at the time that he was doing anything wrong. Every time the two of them had had sex in the past, it had been violent. It's how Buffy wanted it. How many times did she say "no" only to literly attack him? I believe that that is part of the attraction for Buffy. How often can the slayer find a human who can match her strength, and her ummm... stamina?

Then Buffy says "no" and means it. Yes in the real world that should have been enough, but in the world of Spike there was no difference from all the other times she'd said no. Until later, and now he's paying for it.

 

[RastaPope]

A few words about Buffy, Spike, and Rape.

First off, some clarification.

When a person is turned(vamped), their human soul goes to wherever it was supposed to, whether that be heaven or hell. Then a newly formed demon soul from Hell takes up residence. They inherit the former soul's memories, habits, patterns, etc, but perverts them. Take for instance, Drusilla. The human soul that was Drusilla was a very religious girl, she loved children, animals, and dolls. The demon 'Drusilla' eats children, tortures animals, and loves dolls. A vampire is just a really bad, evil copy.

This being the case, the person, the soul who attempted to rape Buffy no longer exists. It's assumed in the Whedonverse that Angel's demon soul, as well as Spikes, have returned to hell for endless torture.

They're NOT the same person. And I don't mean, they're not the same, they've changed. I mean they are literally NOT the same person. Think of it as someone creating an evil robot double of yourself. You get tossed away in some prison where no one can see you, no one knows you're there, and your robot double wreaks havoc. You can't be held responsible for what it is you're robot double does should it ever be taken out of commision and you return.

Sure, the demon soul that was Spike knew what he was doing. It's what he was MADE to do. It's what he WAS. Evil. He can walk like a man, act like a man, but he's still evil. The capacity to love doesn't change that. What he tried to do was perfectly acceptable, even if he'd been the subject of behavior modification long enough to begin modifying it himself.

Now if THIS Spike, this WilliamSpike were to try something, he could be held accountable. But not for anything that passed he was turned, and before his human soul retook his body.


All that said, doing as best he could to be a real man, DemonSpike had no way of knowing that his behaviour wasn't acceptable. One assumes he had such a relationship with dru in their 120+ years of courtship. It's common knowledge they reveled in torturing each other, both sexual and otherwise. Also, the relationship DemonSpike and Buffy had wasn't exactly healthy, with every bout of copulation prefaced and followed with violence of one sort or another.

Remember kiddies, DemonSpike does NOT equal WilliamSpike.

 

[RastaPope]

In addendum...


Why is WilliamSpike beating himself up over it? Because as a vampire keeps the memories of the human it's inhabited, so does WilliamSpike keep the memories of the demon that inhabited his body. All the demon did, all the people he killed, WilliamSpike remembers. As did Angel, who, if you'll remember, went through many a year of guilt-ridden torture over what he'd done. And remember, Angel's little more than twice Spike's age.

Spike, as the human William, was a very decent and caring man, so having the memories of these things, things done in his body, well, they're a lot to bare. Think about it.


From beneath you, it devours. Kind of like Spike's memories, if you think about it.

 

[Felicia4411]

She's the slayer, and has proven time and time again that she's Spikes superior when it comes to strength and fighting skills. There's nooooo way he could have ever raped her, without some major changes in the characters strengths. I also don't see Spike believing at the time that he was doing anything wrong. Every time the two of them had had sex in the past, it had been violent. It's how Buffy wanted it.

I also wondered why she was unable to fight him off right away as well...she's taken on some pretty tough things and had less trouble. It seemed like it took pretty long for her to finally get him off her.
I also see your point about their violent sex and her saying "no" but not fighting it.
I was unhappy about what Spike did but I don't blame him, it's not like he was some super nice boy scout or anything. And now with his soul he's filled with guilt about it.

 

[RastaPope]

Tonight, on Angel.

Finally, some connection to Buffy. Cordy going through her High School yearbook, reading inscriptions mentioning the high school blowing up, giant snakes, and being thanked for the fire arrows. Were the firey arrows her idea? Could be. Smart girl.


Thinking about writing a long post about the Growth of Cordy...Any takers?

 

[cybergirly]

Re: Tonight, on Angel.

Finally, some connection to Buffy. Cordy going through her High School yearbook, reading inscriptions mentioning the high school blowing up, giant snakes, and being thanked for the fire arrows. Were the firey arrows her idea? Could be. Smart girl.


Thinking about writing a long post about the Growth of Cordy...Any takers?

Yes please! I don't watch Angel that often, all though I am watching it tonight. And I didn't watch the first 2 seasons of Buffy, so I'd love some background.

 

[dgnr8469]

Re: Re: Tonight, on Angel.

And I didn't watch the first 2 seasons of Buffy, so I'd love some background.

You missed the first two seasons?! Well that is something we shall have to remedy isn't it?

 

[cybergirly]

Re: Re: Re: Tonight, on Angel.

You missed the first two seasons?! Well that is something we shall have to remedy isn't it?

I almost bought them on dvd the other day. But just wasn't willing to pay $70 bucks a piece of whatever they were.

 

[dgnr8469]

I can understand that. Though I love the show so much I could probably be convinced to do so.

Hey if I do, private viewing party at my place!

 

[RastaPope]

If I'm not off my mark, I've figured most of it out. Holy shit.


From beneath you, it devours.

 

[Felicia4411]

Damn it...I forgot tonight's episode was the "special" Halloween episode, i.e. a rerun. I got all excited for nothing. Oh well, I'm sure next week will make up for it.
Cybergirly I bought the first two seasons on DVD, they were great but I love the show enough to not mind spending the money. You may want to wait until they go cheaper.

You figured it out Rasta...you mean this whole season or you figured something else out?

 

[RastaPope]

You figured it out Rasta...you mean this whole season or you figured something else out?

All of it. Wow.

 

[babyboo]

Hi everyone!

I read through all 13 pages of this thread last night... whewww what a job... and today I post for the first time in it!!

First I must say that, Rasta, you are my god!! Thanks for keeping everyone so well informed on a show that doesn't get enough attention.

Second, I am a complete BtVS freak so I'm sure ya'll will be hearing from me on a regular basis. I had a question though... do you all like to keep all Buffy talk in this thread or if I wish to discuss specific eps or general Buffy fun should I start another thread?

Don't wanna piss anyone off on my first day back at Lit! (hehe)

btw...

AMBER BENSON is a godess!!!!! ... but u all knew that

 

[RastaPope]

deleted cause im stupid.

 

[RastaPope]

Second, I am a complete BtVS freak so I'm sure ya'll will be hearing from me on a regular basis. I had a question though... do you all like to keep all Buffy talk in this thread or if I wish to discuss specific eps or general Buffy fun should I start another thread?

Don't wanna piss anyone off on my first day back at Lit! (hehe)

btw...

AMBER BENSON is a godess!!!!! ... but u all knew that [/B]

Hey, start a new thread or add to the greater glory of this one. I, personally, post everything I have to say about Buffy here, I'd like to see how many posts we can get it to before the end of the series.

And Amber's mine, stay away!!

 

[Eagle70]

And i've got dibbs on Dawn...when she becomes legal of course...<wicked laugh>

 

[RastaPope]

By the by, Angelus is coming.

Soon.

The gang brings him back.

On purpose.

It backfires.

Someone will die.

 

[Cibo]

Rasta you tease!

 

[Eagle70]

By the by, Angelus is coming.

Soon.

The gang brings him back.

On purpose.

It backfires.

Someone will die.

I'm guessing that since Angelus is coming back, it isnt going to be the "real" Angel? Cause David Boreanez is locked up on his WB contract...? I'm guessing the demon takes over someones body? Please dont let it be Xander...

 

[RastaPope]

I'm guessing that since Angelus is coming back, it isnt going to be the "real" Angel? Cause David Boreanez is locked up on his WB contract...? I'm guessing the demon takes over someones body? Please dont let it be Xander...

No, this is happening on Angel.

Hasn'nt anyone wondered about the implications of the impossible happening? Connor just shouldn't BE.

Did you see Angel this past week? Lorne read Cordy's mind and quoted a line from "The Second Coming" by William Yeats.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;/ Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,/ The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere/ The ceremony of innocence is drowned;/ The best lack all conviction, while the worst/ Are full of passionate intensity./ Surely some revelation is at hand;/ Surely the Second Coming is at hand./ The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out/ When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi/ Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert/ A shape with lion body and the head of a man,/ A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,/ Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it/ Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds./ The darkness drops again; but now I know/ That twenty centuries of stony sleep/ Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,/ And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,/ Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?

 

[Eagle70]

So i've been thinking...especially with that who Yeats passage...could the "Big Bad" be the Devil himself? Like an anti-christ kinda thing? i dunno...its all so sketchy at this point...

and i dont watch Angel, so i'm a bit confused...but Angel WONT be on buffy, right? lol

 

[RastaPope]

So i've been thinking...especially with that who Yeats passage...could the "Big Bad" be the Devil himself? Like an anti-christ kinda thing? i dunno...its all so sketchy at this point...

and i dont watch Angel, so i'm a bit confused...but Angel WONT be on buffy, right? lol

No. Faith will be, though. And her being on Angel is so she can hunt Angelus down after they bring him forth. Connor himself is an impetus of the oncoming apocalypse. Connor being alive....is going to trigger a lot.

 

[Eagle70]

Maychance you can explain this to me. I thought Faith was in jail or something. What the hell has been going on with her?

And so there will be crossing over...hmmmm...interesting...