Boy Scouts vs. Girl Scouts

[Weird Harold]

Actually, that's another thing that bugs me.

How could someone from the Midwest not have a clue just from the look of the sky that a serious thunderstorm or worse was on the way? From the news reports they had no idea someone was wrong until they actually saw the tornado. I'm not a weather expert but damn - I can usually tell when something serious is brewing.

This is a very good point and one that is probbly going to cost the BSA councils a great deal of money to settle negligence lawsuits. The lack of shelters can be justified, but the lack of warning can't -- especially given the weeks of near record breaking Severe Storm and Tornado activity in the weeks leading up to the campers' arrival.

 

[Guest]

. . . .

 

[Weird Harold]

They didn't even have a weather radio.

I mean, my parents own a weather radio.

My FM band walkie talkie set includes weather warning and all of NWS frequencies for weather updates -- and I'm sure that all the counselers have some sort of radio contact with the camp hierarchy for routine emergencies.

Basic weather radios can be had for as little as $10 and any web capable cell phone can subscribe to Weather Channel alerts and updates.

 

[sr71plt]

They didn't even have a weather radio.

I mean, my parents own a weather radio.

Where did you hear they didn't have a weather radio? I saw a live interview with one of the scouts on CNN the day afterward. He said they had a weather radio--and had it on--but that the static was so bad they couldn't hear what it said. He also said they had no more than a couple of second's warning that the cabin was going to be hit where the chimney collapsed and killed the four boys--that a scout master went outside for something and returned immediately and told them to hit the dirt. WHICH indicates that the only tornado shelter that could have helped them would have been one under the cabin, entered through the cabin.

You just can't protect everyone from every possibility no matter how much Monday morning quarterbacking you do. You could try keeping your children home and in the back of a closet--but they'd probably be bitten by a black widow spider there--and they'd grow up pretty dull and nonfunctionally scared of their shadow.

 

[Guest]

. . . .

 

[JagFarlane]

Edited to Adjust: Its easy to play "Monday Morning Quarterback" and state what has been argued. The tragedy is sad, yes. However it does happen, that is the way of the world. People die from tornadoes even with weather radios and shelters. Its just easier to sit here and go on about shoulda, woulda, coulda.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Oh! SARAH is one of these moms that makes her kids wear bicycle helmets when they shit.

 

[JagFarlane]

I just think the thing that bothers me most about this thread is the comparison of the two. The two entities were formed separately, founded two years apart, in different parts of the country. What ties them together is that both were founded by people whom met Lord Robert Baden-Powell, the ex-British general whom formed Scouting in Britain. That and both strive to help mold young men and women into good citizens and helpful members of thier communities.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JAG

Youre fighting the last war. Let me clue you in.

SARAH and the feminists want their daughters in the Boy Scouts because Girl Scouts is 2nd Prize. But they dont want their daughters wiping their asses with moss or pissing on bunnies. So the plan is to make the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts. That is, every activity will be in the backyard and everyone will wear a bicycle helmet when he craps in a real toilet.

 

[jomar]

What's the maximum distance a camper should be abel to get from a shelter? How many shelters would you need to ensure that no camper could get further away from a shelter than you're arbitrary distance? How many shelters would it take to protect one camper everywhere within an 1800 acre property. How big should each shelter be to be sure that every camper that might be closest to any given shelter will be safe?

You can't build shelters every hundred yards that can each contain the entire camp population and if you did provide absolute shelter coverage, you'd likely have to dig up and/or run over all of the ecology that makes the place suitable for "wildernes" camping. You can't dig huge holes and line them with concrete, (or some other reinforcing material) without disturbing a lot more space than just the hole you're digging -- not even if you make the scouts dig the shelters by hand by tunneling into hillsides.

All good questions that need to be addressed, and maybe they'd decide against a shelter.

My whole point is simply that if they have a camp in tornado alley, and the county gets hit every couple of years, either don't camp during a record breaking tornado "season" or take better precautions.

 

[sr71plt]

All good questions that need to be addressed, and maybe they'd decide against a shelter.

My whole point is simply that if they have a camp in tornado alley, and the county gets hit every couple of years, either don't camp during a record breaking tornado "season" or take better precautions.

And the point that doesn't seem to be absorbed is that the shelter would have to undergird the whole acreage to be particularly effective (which is probably what the scouting administrator was getting at when he said he still wasn't sure whether it was a practical idea).

As I noted above, the eyewitness account I watched on CNN the next day indicated that if the shelter hadn't been under the cabin where the boys died and door to the shelter hadn't already been open, it wouldn't have mattered beans if the camp had a tornado shelter or not.

 

[oggbashan]

During WWII in the UK Boy Scouts were employed as messengers between Air Raid Warden Posts.

Several died on duty.

When I was a Boy Scout it wasn't considered exceptional for one or two Boy Scouts to die each year while on Scouting activities.

There are risks in every activity.

The Scout movement tries to involve youngsters in managed risk and to train them for emergencies.

In my first year as a Boy Scout I ended up camping in a war zone. That wasn't the organisers' intention.

I learned how to dig a slit trench or foxhole...















...quickly.

Og

 

[jomar]

And the point that doesn't seem to be absorbed is that the shelter would have to undergird the whole acreage to be particularly effective (which is probably what the scouting administrator was getting at when he said he still wasn't sure whether it was a practical idea).

As I noted above, the eyewitness account I watched on CNN the next day indicated that if the shelter hadn't been under the cabin where the boys died and door to the shelter hadn't already been open, it wouldn't have mattered beans if the camp had a tornado shelter or not.

No, I suspect people do get the limitations of a shelter in a camp setting of that size. But what we're talking about here is a camp in an area that is known for tornadoes.

I said the adults should have taken better precautions given what they knew about the area and storm activity. Maybe a shelter is part of that, maybe not. But unless the tornado dropped straight down out of the sky on them (instead of moving in on them) they should have been paying attention and known what was going on and taken measures. And if they had warning (I know the radio had static, so why didn't someone wonder about that and step outside for a look), getting to a shelter would be far faster than getting the kids home. Isn't their motto 'Be prepared?'

 

[Elianna]

I've never known the terror of living through a hurricane, tornado, or earthquake, but I did do extensive time with both scouts. Why? I was a younger sister of a boy scout and mom was one of the scout moms. So, I tagged along. Honestly, I was dissappointed with the girl scouts. They were about crafts and singing songs. The boy scouts... man... we hiked, we camped, we blew things up! It was AWESOME.

Strangely enough, boy scouts die pretty regularly in Arizona (more often than girl scouts). Sometimes they fall off the mountains, sometimes they get heat exhaustion, drown, whatever they can manage to do to themselves..

As someone who has dedicated her life to the betterment of kids I want to protect them as much as possible. However, I think that there is always some kind of risk with going out into nature. You take every precation, but just like driving to work every day, tragedy can strike. I think that you have to balance risk with safety. Shit happens. The only thing we can do now is evaluate if there were any errors and then LEARN FROM IT. So if there were no radios.. well duh. Shelters... if you're in a tent, it may not help, but you do the best you can.

 

[sr71plt]

No, I suspect people do get the limitations of a shelter in a camp setting of that size. But what we're talking about here is a camp in an area that is known for tornadoes.

I said the adults should have taken better precautions given what they knew about the area and storm activity. Maybe a shelter is part of that, maybe not. But unless the tornado dropped straight down out of the sky on them (instead of moving in on them) they should have been paying attention and known what was going on and taken measures. And if they had warning (I know the radio had static, so why didn't someone wonder about that and step outside for a look), getting to a shelter would be far faster than getting the kids home. Isn't their motto 'Be prepared?'

They did take precautions. They had a drill the day before and everyone followed the drill or more would be dead.

Continued Monday Morning Quarterbacking and holding onto the irrational rejection of "stuff" just happening in life. The false sense that you can control and totally protect and that "someone" (other than you, of course) is to blame if that doesn't happen.

I suggest that if you live in such a place, you'd best just move away to someplace historically a little safer (if you can find one). Because what you expect isn't going to happen and is senseless to expect.

 

[jomar]

They did take precautions. They had a drill the day before and everyone followed the drill or more would be dead.

Continued Monday Morning Quarterbacking and holding onto the irrational rejection of "stuff" just happening in life. The false sense that you can control and totally protect and that "someone" (other than you, of course) is to blame if that doesn't happen.

I suggest that if you live in such a place, you'd best just move away to someplace historically a little safer (if you can find one). Because what you expect isn't going to happen and is senseless to expect.

Of course stuff happens in life, like disease, or someone running a red light and t-boning you on a sunny Tuesday afternoon. Once again, my point is simply that they have a campground in tornado alley and went camping during a particularly bad storm season. As a leader or parent, would you just shrug your shoulders and go, "Oh well. Shit happens." Because of this tragedy they will take more precautions and pay better attention next year.

 

[Guest]

. . . .

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

OGG

We now live in an era that values momma's boys. But real boys wont put up with it. The Boy Scouts will go out of business if they act to civilize their programs too much.

SARAH and JOMAR have no problem with a boy joining a street gang, but they dont boys pissing on trees and sleeping under the stars. No real boy will suffer a camp policed by nannies and filled with amenities.

 

[Guest]

. . . .

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SARAH is our resident expert on monkeys. In Girl Scouts she earned the Monkey Spanking merit badge.

 

[Guest]

. . . .

 

[jomar]

OGG

We now live in an era that values momma's boys. But real boys wont put up with it. The Boy Scouts will go out of business if they act to civilize their programs too much.

SARAH and JOMAR have no problem with a boy joining a street gang, but they dont boys pissing on trees and sleeping under the stars. No real boy will suffer a camp policed by nannies and filled with amenities.

Are you missing the point on purpose?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JOMAR

And the real point is what? Chain the boys to a risk free campground? Anticipate every goddamned problem that might come down the pike? Herd the boys around with a battalion of nannies? I think this is the point you and SARAH make. I'm surprised you didnt whine that there were no crisis counselors on-hand when the tornado came along.

 

[jomar]

JOMAR

And the real point is what? Chain the boys to a risk free campground? Anticipate every goddamned problem that might come down the pike? Herd the boys around with a battalion of nannies? I think this is the point you and SARAH make. I'm surprised you didnt whine that there were no crisis counselors on-hand when the tornado came along.

Of course not. You know exactly what I'm talking about. But I'm beginning to think that if there were sharks circling the boat you'd tell the boys to go ahead and swim.

 

[sr71plt]

JOMAR

And the real point is what? Chain the boys to a risk free campground? Anticipate every goddamned problem that might come down the pike? Herd the boys around with a battalion of nannies? I think this is the point you and SARAH make. I'm surprised you didnt whine that there were no crisis counselors on-hand when the tornado came along.

Yes, I'm afraid that's exactly what Jomar and Subsweetsarahh are sticking with--and I have to agree--the feces throwing from both sides aside--that it's not only impossible and impractical to do, but that it also does little to prepare either your son or your daughter to be able to cope with real life.